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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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In the world of Westeros, guarding Jamie Lannister The Kingslayler is absolutely a big deal!!!

In the SHOW, he only has One guard so he only has to kill One guard. In reality he would had to have killed at least a few more just to get out of the camp. IF in the books Robb had taken Jaime camp hoping I can Only imagine he built his camp Around Jamie's cell and did not leave it on the outskirts with One Guard!! like in the show:)

When you look at it from a practical point of view, I guess they figured (reasonably) that a man in a large cage, who is heavily chained at his hands and neck and secured to a large post, is not exactly going anywhere in a hurry! As Alton is unarmed and doesn't have the keys to Jaime's chains with him :D I guess they also figured that he didn't pose much of a threat either. Of course, the way they have written Jaime, it was a little silly putting anyone at all in with him, but again I guess Robb's and co didn't think Jaime would kill a very distant cousin. The only really stupid mistake they made was having the keys handily available on the person of that single guard, and not held in a nearby tent or with someone in authority.

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This also ties into what I just said about "the little guy doesn't matter". Tywin is so conscious of this that it's entirely unconscious for him - why should anyone want to kill Mr Unimportant Faceless Weapon? Clearly, someone is intending to kill him. He's the one that matters. His assumption ties in perfectly with his son killing a cousin for his own escape. Jaime is one of those who matter. Those who matter do not care for those who don't, and those that matter who DO care for those who don't... perish. Like Ned Stark.

And Robb :(

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Gone too far from the original story with the episode in my opinion (as I have been reading the book parallel, I have to say I am becoming disapointed with the TV series)

You’re making a really big mistake. You have to watch the show first or else you will be terrible, terrible disappointed no matter what happens. If you read the book, you will be angry at what was left out or changed in the show. If you watch the show first, you will be delighted with how much more there is.

Why in the world do you want to be angry instead of delighted?

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A couple of thoughts on the HBO adaptation.

(1) I enjoyed the first season thoroughly; the second season not so much. Could that be because I had read the first four (4) books in-between (and now working on ADWD). I've the suspicion I'd enjoy the second season more if I had not been "spoiled" by the books and the character/plot deviations.

(2) I think they should have devoted more than 10 episodes to ACOK, even if it means spreading it over two (2) seasons. As it stands, I'm worried how they are going to maintain "continuity" with the subsequent books given the character/plot deviations driven in large part by the need to compress the plot lines to fit within 10 episodes.

I do not know where George Martin is going with this series but it seems to me he could S-T-R-E-E-E-T-T-T-C-C-C-H-H this story out a long time over many books; he's currently only working with a fraction of the World he's created. Who's to say when/if he might bring in story lines from other parts of this world ?

At the very least, IF the dragons are going to play a significant military role in these books, they will need years and years to grow, "mature" and become a significant military assets for Daenery's et al. How Daenery's manages to learn how to "tame" these growing dragons seems problematical but then again, I am not that far into ADWD.

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... I do not know where George Martin is going with this series but it seems to me he could S-T-R-E-E-E-T-T-T-C-C-C-H-H this story out a long time over many books...

I'm of a mind that there will be 3 more books, as opposed to the 2 that are planned, in order to bring the series to a close. I could be wrong, but I have a hard time seeing how he can wrap it up in only 2 more books without rushing things, and I do not believe he will rush things. It was originally only supposed to be a trilogy, so his "plans" are malleable. I don't believe he'll be satisfied until he's told the story he wants to tell, and I, for one, applaud that... though I fervently hope there are no more 5 years gaps.

At the very least, IF the dragons are going to play a significant military role in these books, they will need years and years to grow, "mature" and become a significant military assets for Daenery's et al. How Daenery's manages to learn how to "tame" these growing dragons seems problematical but then again, I am not that far into ADWD.

Keep reading.

They're big enough to ride as of the end of ADwD, and one is, at least partially, broken to a rider.

Used spoiler tags in case you're trying to avoid them, though, since you're posting in the book spoiler marked thread, that's likely moot.

Edited by J.S. Crews

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You’re making a really big mistake. You have to watch the show first or else you will be terrible, terrible disappointed no matter what happens. If you read the book, you will be angry at what was left out or changed in the show. If you watch the show first, you will be delighted with how much more there is. Why in the world do you want to be angry instead of delighted?

There haven't been any meaningful changes, so the poster you're quoting is getting upset for nothing anyway.

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Are we assuming Catelyn is freeing Jaimie? Isn't it more likely she is just going to cut off his hand first.

I completely agree. It seems that Vargo Hoat, who cuts off Jaime's hand in ASOS, is one of those extra characters that HBO doesn't really have room for. As a result, I wouldn't be surprised if Catelyn is the one who cuts off Jaime's hand and then after hearing of Bran and Rickon's deaths, sets him free under Brienne's watch.

I would love to see Vargo Hoat in the TV series though.

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I could be wrong, but I have a hard time seeing how he can wrap it up in only 2 more books without rushing things,

He could wrap it up in 2 books (depending how far you want the story to go before you consider it 'ended'), by forgoing some of the rich description, since by now the world is already "built" for its audience. By the fifth book, I was saying, "Enough of the 'aimless glance' already!" (See Umberto Eco's critique of minutiae that don't advance the plot and what purpose they serve, such as setting us up for implausible or violent action.)

I realize this is now a tangent not directly related to Episode 7.

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Sigh. I'm not requiring anything, pooh bear. It was a suggestion made in an effort to increase someone else's enjoyment. I couldn't possibly care less what someone does or doesn't read. My entire position, all along, has been simply to say, "if you like one, you'll most likely also enjoy the other." Sheesh.

Not everything is about YOU.

You obviously mistook my original post on bullying for something YOU said. It wasn't. I quoted the original post, which wasn't YOURS. Please go back and see who it WAS directed to - it's easy to see, that's what the QUOTE button does.

My point has NEVER been about people suggesting the books. It's THE WAY a certain poster attacked another poster.

And don't call me "pooh bear." You don't know me, and it just makes you look like that douchebag from Legally Blonde.

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A couple of thoughts on the HBO adaptation.

(1) I enjoyed the first season thoroughly; the second season not so much. Could that be because I had read the first four (4) books in-between (and now working on ADWD). I've the suspicion I'd enjoy the second season more if I had not been "spoiled" by the books and the character/plot deviations.

Ding ding ding! Exactly right. Not one of the nonbookers I know have been unhappy with the show. It’s only the bookhuggers who carp and crow.

(2) I think they should have devoted more than 10 episodes to ACOK, even if it means spreading it over two (2) seasons. As it stands, I'm worried how they are going to maintain "continuity" with the subsequent books given the character/plot deviations driven in large part by the need to compress the plot lines to fit within 10 episodes.

Excepting the eponymous nickname of Lord Baelish, we seen surprisingly little of a cock for these 10 episodes. Bit of a bummer that — although there was a bit of bum last time around, now that you mention it.

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There haven't been any meaningful changes, so the poster you're quoting is getting upset for nothing anyway.

Gotta admit that that’s what I thought, too, but I figured I’d given the lamer the benefit of the doubt.

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I completely agree. It theemth that Vargo Hoat, who cutth off Jaime'th hand in AThOTh, ith one of fothe ekthtra characterth that HBO doethn't really have room for. As a rethult, I wouldn't be thurprithed if Catelyn ith da one who cutth off Jaime'th hand and den avter hearing of Bran and Rickon'th deathfth, thets him vree under Brienne'th watch. I would love to thee Vargo Hoat in the TV theries though.

Yeth indeed, tho would I, but do you fink HBO could do a good enough job wiffout making him thound too thilly? ; }

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I will be shocked if Hoat is cut, he may be pushed back to next season. Catelyn is not going to cut off Jaime's hand! All she cares about is getting her daughters back. Why would she mangle the package she wants to trade for them??? I'm assuming she doesn't want mangled daughters back.

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You’re making a really big mistake. You have to watch the show first or else you will be terrible, terrible disappointed no matter what happens. If you read the book, you will be angry at what was left out or changed in the show. If you watch the show first, you will be delighted with how much more there is. Why in the world do you want to be angry instead of delighted?

I am always amazed when people think other people will feel or think exactly like them. I mean, I get sharing your own personal experience, but then taking that a step farther in the expectation that others will have your same experience is kind of mindboggling.

I started reading the books after season 1 ended. (I'm a ridiculously slow reader because my life is pretty full..) As of the beginning of season 2, I had just about finished ASOS.

By your theory, since I read book 2 before watching season 2, I should be as "terribly, terribly disappointed", and "angry at what was left out or changed in the show."

Guess what? I'm NOT. I love BOTH. I am absolutely DELIGHTED with the show. In fact, I like much of the show BETTER. They both compliment each other, and for me, the books are the books, and the show is the show. I'm having fun experiencing BOTH. Right now I'm in the middle of book 4, and enjoying myself immensely.

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I completely agree. It seems that Vargo Hoat, who cuts off Jaime's hand in ASOS, is one of those extra characters that HBO doesn't really have room for. As a result, I wouldn't be surprised if Catelyn is the one who cuts off Jaime's hand and then after hearing of Bran and Rickon's deaths, sets him free under Brienne's watch.

I would love to see Vargo Hoat in the TV series though.

Hoat or no Hoat, having Catelyn cut Jaime's hand off would be a disastrously bad change.

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^Hmm I didn' think about that (of course thinking isn't Catelyn strongest suit either). Anyway I hope they execute it in a way that people wont say WTF is Catelyn doing.

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Not everything is about YOU. You obviously mistook my original post on bullying for something YOU said. It wasn't. I quoted the original post, which wasn't YOURS. Please go back and see who it WAS directed to - it's easy to see, that's what the QUOTE button does. My point has NEVER been about people suggesting the books. It's THE WAY a certain poster attacked another poster.

All snarkiness aside, yes -- you were talking about what another poster said, but you responding directly to my post challenging whether or not it reached the severity of being qualified as "e-bullying" (a position others challenged as well). You even re-quoted my little joke about the PC Thought Police, so how you could be surprised by my responding as to the origin of the whole convoluted, ignorant discussion escapes me. I'm done now, both because it's off-topic and no longer amusing.

And don't call me "pooh bear." You don't know me, and it just makes you look like that douchebag from Legally Blonde.

None of us know each other. It's an internet board. Again, you're taking yourself far too seriously and degenerating into calling me vulgar names. Let's just let it die, shall we?

Sheesh.

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They both compliment each other, and for me, the books are the books, and the show is the show. I'm having fun experiencing BOTH. Right now I'm in the middle of book 4, and enjoying myself immensely.

I agree.

Edited by J.S. Crews

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Hoat or no Hoat, having Catelyn cut Jaime's hand off would be a disastrously bad change.
Yeah... I can't see them not having the Jamie v Brienne mutual beatdown. That's a pretty epic scene that changes who they both are. And they can't really have that scene if Jamie doesn't have a hand.

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Exactly. I often feel their respect for one another grew from there with the 'respect for each other as warriors' as a core basis which they established during that fight.

I'm done now, both because it's off-topic and no longer amusing. None of us know each other. It's an internet board. Again, you're taking yourself far too seriously and degenerating into calling me vulgar names. Let's just let it die, shall we? Sheesh.

It all boils down to (usually a combination of) 1. People coming to the internet and expecting a good time, then being unable to relieve the tension they wanted to relieve because everything is not completely as they want it to be 2. People taking themselves too seriously 3. People everywhere being too touchy in general. 4. It being more difficult to carry over intonation and irony over the internet. EvaMitchelle got more offended by me than she was supposed to be too most likely because of point 4. 5. No one being as awesomely cool-headed as I am (see what I did there? ^^)

Btw, I'm watching Season 1 with commentaries now, and hope they do a commentary on this episode as well, preferably a writer who explains why all the changes were necessary... You do make a lot more sense of it when a guy explains it like that, weird as that may sound.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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