The face of Jaqen, the Alchemist... and Daario

[Horza]

Arya never met the Alchemist. Whatever you meant, eye colour is not a significant marker like the tooth is (see OP again).

Argument by assertion eh?

:dunno:

I guess that's fine if you're not that keen on convincing people.

[Eira Seren]

on the gold tooth: well, lots of people probably have facial scars, too. and beards. and curly hair. so the fact that something as mundane as a fake tooth (albeit gold) only gets a mention once or twice possibly isn't so notable. it just means that certain dental practices--making a fake tooth out of gold--occur in this world. anyone with enough gold can have one made. however, because this is fiction, and because it can be put together with other repeated attributes like the scars and hair, it opens the door to the possibility that a person or persons is using the same face (or could be the same person).

and i'm still trying to figure out how daario could be impersonating pate in the epilogue, back to mereen, then back to impersonate him again in when sam meets him. and then we throw the alchemist in there, at some point, too. . . if i'm understanding the timeline correctly, then daario is 'pate' at least twice (that we see), at very disparate points in time? just checking.

lykos, your theory seems likely.

[Bran Vras]

Argument by assertion eh?

:dunno:

I guess that's fine if you're not that keen on convincing people.

I thought it was self-evident. Golden teeth are rare in the series, blue eyes are not. In fact, if you look at the combination hooked nose+curly hair, I could find only the Alchemist, Daario and Jaqen that match the description in the whole series (I might have missed a synonym or two of hooked nose or curly hair). That's even without mentioning the gold tooth and the scar.

In fact my argument is not so much about the reality of the distribution of gold teeth, hooked nose, scars etc in Westeros. It's about the way GRRM chooses to describe his characters. The description of Jaqen serves the reader for watching the reappearance of this nameless, mysterious character. If the reappearance of the features in the Alchemist is significant, the reappearance in Daario can not be fortuitous. In other words, GRRM knew what he was doing, since he doesn't distribute gold teeth and hooked nose randomly in his descriptions.

(My opinion is that GRRM has calculated for the appearance of the Alchemist to be recognizable readily so that Daario could slip under the radar. And that worked.)

[a free shadow]

I think it is excellent how you have researched things. However (and it is just my opinion), after you have put in a certain amount of work, you might have gotten unwilling to see good reason in objections people put up.

You have put it out here not to get critisised, but to get support and help in fleshing things out even more, possibly? And there is nothing wrong with that either :D But you must know that people will always, always try to sink it down, before getting on board :D

I personally subscribe to Alchemist=Jaqen=Pate, but from now on I'll think that Daario, too, might be a FM. I was thinking that there must be something to him before, just did not (bother to) think about it further. Nice catch!

[Horza]

I thought it was self-evident. Golden teeth are rare in the series, blue eyes are not.

Why is the gold tooth a significant point linking Jaqen and Daario when no mention is made of Jaqen's eye colour?

In fact, if you look at the combination hooked nose+curly hair, I could find only the Alchemist, Daario and Jaqen that match the description in the whole series (I might have missed a synonym or two of hooked nose or curly hair). That's even without mentioning the gold tooth and the scar.

But somehow it isn't relevant that Daario has more scars than Jaqen, that he has a beard and blue hair and that his curls are long while the Alchemists are short like Jaqens. You are happy to accept anything that links Jaqen to Daario while waving away the closer resemblance of the Alchemist and the differences between Jaqen and Daario.

In fact my argument is not so much about the reality of the distribution of gold teeth, hooked nose, scars etc in Westeros. It's about the way GRRM chooses to describe his characters.The description of Jaqen serves the reader for watching the reappearance of this nameless, mysterious character. If the reappearance of the features in the Alchemist is significant, the reappearance in Daario can not be fortuitous. In other words, GRRM knew what he was doing, since he doesn't distribute gold teeth and hooked nose randomly in his descriptions.

These are all assumptions. You've decided that there's some significance in Jaqen and Daario having a gold tooth and a crooked nose and tried to build a theory out of it. When difficulties come up they're dismissed, but that scepticism goes missing when it comes to the similarities.

Indeed, you don't have textual support for the Alchemist having no gold tooth - as Jaqen's golden tooth is revealed when he smiles, and he doesn't smile for Pate, any more than you have support for Daario having one facial scar - a beard just as easily might hide many scars or none.

The fact remains that the Alchemist has a much closer resemblance to Jaqen than Daario, behaves much more like a Faceless Man than Daario and has a clear agenda in Oldtown.

To place Daario as a Faceless Man requires accounting for his behaviour, which in its flamboyance, verbosity and naked self-interest has no resemblance in anything we've observed of the Faceless Men. Daario freely kills, whereas Jaqen and the Alchemist both abide by strange prescriptions on taking life. Daario operates in a gossipy, fractious trade where reputation matters - he is known to people and leads men in battle where Jaqen and the Alchemist are shadowy, enigmatic figures whom people instinctively fear and avoid.

From what I've read I've never seen any evidence that the Faceless Men as good at impersonation to support Daario being one of them. Jaqen is a stranger in a strange land and hence doesn't have to conform to anyone's expectations, the Alchemist is an anonymous figure, and "Pate" noticeable fails to match his previous identity. Your theory requires this to be overturned, and as far as I can tell it rests only on a hooked nose and a gold tooth.

[Bran Vras]

I think it is excellent how you have researched things. However (and it is just my opinion), after you have put in a certain amount of work, you might have gotten unwilling to see good reason in objections people put up.

You have put it out here not to get critisised, but to get support and help in fleshing things out even more, possibly? And there is nothing wrong with that either :D But you must know that people will always, always try to sink it down, before getting on board :D

I personally subscribe to Alchemist=Jaqen=Pate, but from now on I'll think that Daario, too, might be a FM. I was thinking that there must be something to him before, just did not (bother to) think about it further. Nice catch!

Thank you. At least, you can recognize that you have learnt something by reading my post. One wonder whether some people can even realize that.

Horza: You misread me one time too many, in putting in my mouth that I believe that the Alchemist has no gold tooth. It's just an extrapolation, but I am willing to believe it. I never put the problem in terms of alternative between Daario and the Alchemist. Perhaps you can find great threads where you will find happiness contributing.

[Horza]

Horza: You misread me one time too many, in putting in my mouth that I believe that the Alchemist has no gold tooth. It's just an extrapolation, but I am willing to believe it. I never put the problem in terms of alternative between Daario and the Alchemist. Perhaps you can find great threads where you will find happiness contributing.

I apologise for taking an adversarial path. I do appreciate your methods, especially some of the close-reading on the Children of the Forest in 'Heresy' - I plan on re-reading ADWD with those threads in mind.

Nevertheless, I remain somewhat puzzled by what you're seeing here, and if you're not keen on having assertions like these:

In fact my argument is not so much about the reality of the distribution of gold teeth, hooked nose, scars etc in Westeros. It's about the way GRRM chooses to describe his characters. The description of Jaqen serves the reader for watching the reappearance of this nameless, mysterious character. If the reappearance of the features in the Alchemist is significant, the reappearance in Daario can not be fortuitous. In other words, GRRM knew what he was doing, since he doesn't distribute gold teeth and hooked nose randomly in his descriptions.

(My opinion is that GRRM has calculated for the appearance of the Alchemist to be recognizable readily so that Daario could slip under the radar. And that worked.)

questioned I don't see what you expect to get out of this thread.

[Eejit]

^ You know what? I'm willing to believe that Daario might — might — be a Faceless Man infiltrating Dany's operation to get close to the dragons (and, you know, sex with her). I do not believe, at all, that the guy impersonating Pate in Oldtown is the same guy strutting around Meereen.

Agreed. However, does Alchemist have to be Pate? Alchemist Jaqen could have killed Pate but another Faceless Man taken Pate's place.

Devil's advocate here, I don't consider it very likely. Interesting idea though.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But somehow it isn't relevant that Daario has more scars than Jaqen, that he has a beard and blue hair and that his curls are long while the Alchemists are short like Jaqens. You are happy to accept anything that links Jaqen to Daario while waving away the closer resemblance of the Alchemist and the differences between Jaqen and Daario.

These are all assumptions. You've decided that there's some significance in Jaqen and Daario having a gold tooth and a crooked nose and tried to build a theory out of it. When difficulties come up they're dismissed, but that scepticism goes missing when it comes to the similarities.

That's how he operates in his arguments, which is why it's useless to argue with him for very long. It's "missing the forest for the trees" on steroids. And yes he often brings up interesting points, but he's so dug into what he's already concluded that absolutely no dissent gets through — even if it's based on, as this is, glaring holes that he has yet to explain — and he buckles down and just points to the same probably meaningless similarity (like, the gold tooth) and says that it totally shows that he's right.

Agreed. However, does Alchemist have to be Pate? Alchemist Jaqen could have killed Pate but another Faceless Man taken Pate's place.

Devil's advocate here, I don't consider it very likely. Interesting idea though.

But there's no indication that there's a third person involved. That's the problem. If the Alchemist was shown to be working with a partner, this problem would be gone. But there's no evidence of anyone else involved. That's also why the "oh I only make arguments based on the text" thing is so frustrating, because there's nothing in the text to support the idea of a co-conspirator. But rather than say, "I make arguments based on the text, and the text DOES NOT support a third person, so I'm probably wrong on that," he says, "I make arguments based on the text, and I can't find anything in the text that supports the idea of a third person, so I'm going to ignore that and pretend like it doesn't matter."

[jarl the climber]

My beleif about Jaquen is that he went West and was the FM who killed Balon Greyjoy and then went to the Oldtown where he became the alchemist/Pate. Slavers Bay has no connection to Bravos, there is no trade between them. You could make an arguement that the Many Faced God is worshiped in secret there just like it was in Valyria. Personaly I think Daario is exactly what he appaers to be, a sellsword captian. Thats what he says he is and thats what all the evidence points to.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

My beleif about Jaquen is that he went West and was the FM who killed Balon Greyjoy and then went to the Oldtown where he became the alchemist/Pate.

I think this makes a lot of sense. There'd be enough of a gap in time for Jaqen to change his face, leave Arya, go to the Iron Islands to kill Balon and then book it to Oldtown. There's even a possible link between the two — Euron's dragon egg. If Euron paid the Faceless Men with his egg (which I believe he did and which can be loosely inferred in the books), that would give the Faceless Men a more immediate reason to infiltrate Oldtown, where the "Death of Dragons" book is locked up.

[Bran Vras]

Apple Martini, you are kind enough to say that I bring up interesting points. Does anything else count? Everyone is free to make his opinion after that. Therefore I shouldn't have to defend myself, especially since the OP is perfectly reasonable. But I have to put things straight.

Please reread the OP and what I wrote afterwards. I have been careful about that: the main thesis is that Daario, Jaqen and the Alchemist have so similar faces that it can't be a coincidence. Where are the glaring holes? Some people upthread, and in the previous thread, have agreed with the observation. Frankly, did you notice the resemblance? Didn't you learn something here?

Then I offered two possible explanations with an invitation to fellow boarders to provide complements or more options. I don't particularly like any one of the two particularly (I have been clear on this as well). I offered to play advocate for one option, for which I offered a detailed analysis (post 19) of the timeline, under your request among others. I have yet to hear what you think of this analysis. For this option, there is the problem of Pate and, perhaps, the minor point of hair length. Fair points. But, you don't seem to make the distinction between the two levels of discussion.

I have to say that I find your hostility disturbing. After all the OP is not unreasonable, and brings something new. So why complain? Moreover, the portrait you draw of me as a blind and intellectually dishonest ideologue is unwelcome, and close to a personal attack, and I don't see what good can come out of it.

That's how he operates in his arguments, which is why it's useless to argue with him for very long. It's "missing the forest for the trees" on steroids. And yes he often brings up interesting points, but he's so dug into what he's already concluded that absolutely no dissent gets through — even if it's based on, as this is, glaring holes that he has yet to explain — and he buckles down and just points to the same probably meaningless similarity (like, the gold tooth) and says that it totally shows that he's right.

Note that I am not interested in making any general assessment of your personality. I am just here to discuss the books I like, and it hasn't been a pleasant discussion.

Perhaps it's better that you don't read me in the future. But if you want to approve, enhance, criticize, refute whatever interesting point I can make, the best thing to do is to read in a sympathetic spirit, give the benefit of the doubt, ask for clarification, not twist the words, not give the impression that you hate your interlocutor and, yes, offer your dissenting opinion. It will be rewarding for everyone involved. Otherwise, let's both find other interlocutors.

[thetitansbastard]

I don't see how you can compare the number of mentions of gold tooths to Valaryian Steel blades. the blades are mentioned because they are legendary. I assume there are thousands of people with a gold tooth that aren't "in" the series

[Eira Seren]

sorry, i'm sleep deprived and still fuzzy on the timeline. do we see daario masquerading as pate twice? (i think) the second time, with sam--how much time has passed between realpate's death and sam's visit?

[Turkey Jack]

Apologies not read all the replies, I like your idea of Jaqen being Daario, but not being Darrio Jaqen and Pate, Darrio might be able to sneak off but people would ask questions of Pate if he wondered off for months on end. I also dont believe that the same face can be used by two FM at the same time as the face use to be a real persons face.

If Darrio is a FM he could have used his time away from Dany to contact the FM more more instructions/intel report. It would be an unexpected (well not so much now) twist but I think Darrio is the Han Solo of the books and is exactly what he appears to be

[Turkey Jack]

My beleif about Jaquen is that he went West and was the FM who killed Balon Greyjoy and then went to the Oldtown where he became the alchemist/Pate. Slavers Bay has no connection to Bravos, there is no trade between them. You could make an arguement that the Many Faced God is worshiped in secret there just like it was in Valyria. Personaly I think Daario is exactly what he appaers to be, a sellsword captian. Thats what he says he is and thats what all the evidence points to.

Like the mother of the others said he sure gets around.

Jaqen seems to have completed his mission in KL/on the way to the wall, he gives Arya the option of coming with him presumably to Bravos, otherwise he has a mission in KL months later he links up with Euron to kill his brother, then he moves on to Oldtown to persue his third big mission all without ever checking in.

If it was a FM that killed Balon I would want it to be another agent. Jaqen leaves Arya in 299 and Balon dies the same year, logically Euron would need to pick up the FM form Bravos sail all the way around Westeros which I guess could be doable but dose the timeline support this? what is the time span between Jaqen and Balon dying.

[The guy from the Vale]

I think this makes a lot of sense. There'd be enough of a gap in time for Jaqen to change his face, leave Arya, go to the Iron Islands to kill Balon and then book it to Oldtown. There's even a possible link between the two — Euron's dragon egg. If Euron paid the Faceless Men with his egg (which I believe he did and which can be loosely inferred in the books), that would give the Faceless Men a more immediate reason to infiltrate Oldtown, where the "Death of Dragons" book is locked up.

I think that's possible, too. And even if that's not what GRRM intended, I think the show producers will take that path. Tom Wlaschiha is playing Jaqen splendidly, and they can't just have him sit around for two or three years doing nothing. So I think they'll show him kill Balon and as part of Euron's entourage in season 3, and as alchemist from season 4 onwards.

[Jayce]

That's how he operates in his arguments, which is why it's useless to argue with him for very long. It's "missing the forest for the trees" on steroids. And yes he often brings up interesting points, but he's so dug into what he's already concluded that absolutely no dissent gets through — even if it's based on, as this is, glaring holes that he has yet to explain — and he buckles down and just points to the same probably meaningless similarity (like, the gold tooth) and says that it totally shows that he's right.

That is how almost everyone on this board operates their arguments when they think they are right, to a greater or lesser degree, you and I included.

You do Bran an injustice here, obviously you don't agree with him but he has said multiple times that he doesn't particularly like either option himself and he is obviously taking one side to have a debate/discussion about the points and/or if they are relevant, etc.

Your frustration is your own doing in that you seem to have viewed his stance as an "I'm right no matter what", but this can't be true if he doesn't believe in either option himself. It's unfair to take that out on Bran.

I must add that I mostly like your posts and point of view Apple, but lately you seen more cynical and more argumentative then I have read from you before and as such I can't agree with you about your assessment of Bran, that is also unfair.

Bran, I like your posts but I just don't get them sometimes :)

[Bran Vras]

Jayce, your sense of justice honours you. It's a thing lacking in this world, and I almost feel the sentiment is wasted on petty squabbles on an internet forum devoted to fantasy books. :cheers:

What have I done to her to deserve such venom, I ask? I doubt we'll hear any explanation anymore. In any case, true colours have been shown.

That brings me to Horza. I have come to appreciate that you offered apology and I'll address your question below.

[Bran Vras]

I claimed in the OP and in subsequent posts that golden teeth are very rare and therefore a strong marker for a face (stronger than blue eyes, say). It seemed evident to me, but perhaps it's better that I justify it in detail.

I used as basis the occurences in the text. We have four occurences of golden teeth: Daario, Jaqen, Garin and Mord the Goaler (not only in the TV show, but also in the book, small mistake in my OP). Not a single lord of Westeros is described with a golden tooth. Teeth are often mentioned in the books: broken teeth (Brienne, Robert, Theon, Tyrion), crooked teeth (Ygritte), toothless old men (Walder Frey, Lord Locke), rotten black teeth (the lord of the Sisters), red teeth (sourleaf), blue teeth (shade of the evening), a wooden prothesis (Dywen of the Night's Watch), filed teeth (Biter, some wildlings)... GRRM pays attention to teeth in his descriptions. If golden teeth are common, why do Varys, Pycelle and the wealthy insurance man killed by Arya miss teeth?

Of course, the occurrences in the text might not reflect the rarity of golden teeth in GRRM's world.

How probable are golden teeth in a medieval world? I made some inquiry online. I found for instance this, where I read

Gold Prothese

Until the eighteenth century, the dentures were made of human teeth (those extracted from the patient or from cadavers and sculpted) linked by ties of gold threads. Earlier still , some were carved in a variety of organic materials such as bones or teeth of horses, cattles, hippopotamuses… or even in white wood. Fortunately we could go further off thanks to apothecaries who were able to pave the way toward new directions.

There are earlier cases of false golden teeth used for show only (they weren't suitable for masticating), and of cavity fillings by gold. So we shall not use our modern ideas of golden teeth and apply them to a medieval world. Only wealthy people can get them, and only if the dentist skills are available. Perhaps there is just one capable enough dentist in Westeros, just like there is only one armourer able to meld colour in the metal of armours (It's Tobhos Mott, not even a Westerosi). Perhaps, there is none at all and the golden teeth we see all come from the Free Cities. In any case, we never see a specialist in dentistry at any point in the books, despite all the teeth problems people have.

Whether one approaches the question from the realistic perspective of from the point of view of occurences in the book, it seems to me that golden teeth are very rare.

I don't see how you can compare the number of mentions of gold tooths to Valaryian Steel blades. the blades are mentioned because they are legendary. I assume there are thousands of people with a gold tooth that aren't "in" the series

I was prepared to answer that I simply based my comparison on the occurrences in the text. Certainly, you are right to point out that Valyrian blades are more notable than golden teeth. There are about two hundred Valyrian blades in Westeros. Based on the reasoning above, I am not sure there are as many golden teeth.