Sci-2 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 We had this whole thing about the gods. I think there was some consensus on the idea that the gods exist outside of time, and that they are technically Outside but can interact with the world through their domains.I think some people believe Kellhus has enough Daimotic sorcerers to summon a god or punch a big hole through the onta to the Outside once he gets to Golgotterath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 From what I recall of iyokus and his conversation with the ciphrang, it was a type of can't of calling - he knew the name and summoned someone specific. The lasso analogy doesn't quite fit there. I'd imagine that gnostic sorcerers could call something more powerful than the anagogic ones. It's not a matter of traversing the outside and finding something that fits - its traversal of the outside to find a very specific entity. The metagnostic would then presumably be to summon a Godling. Which doesn't make sense as far as Kellhus goes, given that they hate him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I wonder if Kellhus has figured out a way to bring a frame of the Outside inward with him.So rather than having to create a whirlwind to protect himself from Chorae, he could simply pull a wight of a mountain, and bring in a frame where Chorae have no effect on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathOfTinyKittens Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 From what I recall of iyokus and his conversation with the ciphrang, it was a type of can't of calling - he knew the name and summoned someone specific. The lasso analogy doesn't quite fit there.I'd imagine that gnostic sorcerers could call something more powerful than the anagogic ones. It's not a matter of traversing the outside and finding something that fits - its traversal of the outside to find a very specific entity.The metagnostic would then presumably be to summon a Godling. Which doesn't make sense as far as Kellhus goes, given that they hate him. That makes some sense, and ties into what I was saying about the bargaining element. But if that's the case then I don't see why the type of sorcery matters at all. We know that all three types of sorcery have spells similar to the Cants of Calling, so if they're only communicating with Ciphrang then all should be able to do it equally well, assuming other factors are even.From what I recall of previous conversations, the gods are different because they're more powerful, have more influence in the Outside, and possibly exist independent of time. But that makes me think of another question: is "Ciphrang" a generic term for any creature of the Outside? Or is it a specific breed, so to speak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 The wait has been long enough, Father. Answers without questions? Meaning without context? What courseless tracts have been worn into the souls of worldborn men? Scott must be plyed. The wait has been long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kynokephalos Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Odd association time: The Ciphrang triggered a search for this image because for some odd reason I always think of of the Gnostic Demiurge when I remember the Akka - Ciphrang fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 The wait has been long enough, Father. Answers without questions? Meaning without context? What courseless tracts have been worn into the souls of worldborn men? Scott must be plyed. The wait has been long enough.Done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 He gets like 30 responses when he talks about his writing. He gets 450 responses when he argues badly with Vox et al. Which of those do you think encourages him more?Plus, he's stated that the metaphysics of the world are going to remain somewhat squishy and not rigidly defined. Like we'll never know what the full mechanism for the Outside is, or damnation. So you might get lucky - but chances are you'll be grasping at straws for a while. Which is probably fine, as it's probably not that important compared to, say, Mimara's ascension or what actually happened with the Dunyain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 From what I recall of iyokus and his conversation with the ciphrang, it was a type of can't of calling - he knew the name and summoned someone specific. The lasso analogy doesn't quite fit there.I'd imagine that gnostic sorcerers could call something more powerful than the anagogic ones. It's not a matter of traversing the outside and finding something that fits - its traversal of the outside to find a very specific entity.The metagnostic would then presumably be to summon a Godling. Which doesn't make sense as far as Kellhus goes, given that they hate him.I don't think you can make that assumption. Yatwer, yes, has bent her efforts against him, but we haven't seen much from any of the other gods yet. And Esme's opinion that the gods are against the Anasurimbors probably doesn't count for a lot.I've mentioned this before, way, way back, that just because Kelhus has a couple of demon heads swinging from his belt isn't proof positive that he's been to the Outside. Kelly has shown before (when we had his POV to refer to) that he's fully capable of making stuff up to suit his game plan. Remember Akka's words about doubt? Well, I've taken them to heart. I haven't dropped in on this thread for a while. Good stuff! - relating the Outside/Earwa/Chorae interrelations to programming languages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I think the programming language analogy is quite cool.When Kellhus uses a cant of calling and makes it a cant of transposition, he just uses a higher order function, or maybe type polymorphism.Are you talking about how he teleports and it being tied to the cant of calling (the one they speak to others via their dreams)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 He gets like 30 responses when he talks about his writing. He gets 450 responses when he argues badly with Vox et al. Which of those do you think encourages him more?Plus, he's stated that the metaphysics of the world are going to remain somewhat squishy and not rigidly defined. Like we'll never know what the full mechanism for the Outside is, or damnation. So you might get lucky - but chances are you'll be grasping at straws for a while. Which is probably fine, as it's probably not that important compared to, say, Mimara's ascension or what actually happened with the Dunyain.We don't need every detail of the metaphysics, just some tidbits here and there. Previews of the larger Appendix would be nice, no matter how haphazard and random they are.I wonder if there is something about blog culture, this shouting to the wind aspect, that people decide to engage in such endless intellectual masturbration. It's really hard for me to see anything Bakker's written since January that has varied greatly - each post is nearly the same for all intents and purposes.And it seems so self-defeating, worrying about lost sales and then refusing to engage what may be a small but is clearly an interested fan base. Hell, I'd take some Nansur-Zeum interracial porn stories at this point, if there are some cursory details about the world mixed in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I just want to know about Meppa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I just want to know about Meppa.Meppa is Appem spelled backwards. DEAL WITH IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 I don't think you can make that assumption. Yatwer, yes, has bent her efforts against him, but we haven't seen much from any of the other gods yet. And Esme's opinion that the gods are against the Anasurimbors probably doesn't count for a lot.its not just esmes opinion. It's psatma, it's esme confused why maithanet and Kellhus said that. It might be that only yatwer is directly opposed, but the overall story is pretty clear on the gods at best being blind to the no god threat and actively angry at Kellhus. It's possible that all of that is wrong, or misleading, but at some point the text has to be at least examined as not misleading purposely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kynokephalos Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Depending on how you read the whole Kelmomas arc the influence of Ajokli might guide him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 I don't get why the Gods are so angry with Kellhus, but the didn't do anything against Fane. Why wasn't the White-Luck summoned against the Fanim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I don't get why the Gods are so angry with Kellhus, but the didn't do anything against Fane. Why wasn't the White-Luck summoned against the Fanim?Perhaps because the gods really are lesser demons and Fane was right that there is The God? Maybe that protected Fane somehow? Just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 The other question is why didn't the gods use the White Luck Warrior against Inri Sejenus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Because inri wasn't saying that the gods don't exist. And he didn't stop the cultists, nor did he appreciably Change the role of women or the castes. Even fane didn't state the other gods didn't exist. Though I'd also point out we have no idea how inri died. Or fane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Though I'd also point out we have no idea how inri died. Or fane.He didn't die. He ascended to the Nail of Heaven. Burn the heretic! That's a great point though. What is the story on Fane? Are we ever given a religious explanation for his passing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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