From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

[Valkyrja]

To make the matter even worst, Harry will only gain his claim with SW’s death… :o

Sansa has a gentle heart, she will never accept to destroy others to elevate herself, she is no Littlefinger.

I sincerely hope you are right, that Littlefinger does not destroy the inner-Sansa so much that she would stoop to such a level! :(

[Megara]

OMG, I'm so happy I finally found this thread! I've been checking the Re-read forum with longing eyes these past days, and today I decided to check the General forums, and BAM! Here you are! ^^

First, I've never been into the "Sansa warging Sandor" theory... until I read Queen of Spades' not-so crackpot theory and it just felt so right!! I'd like to contribute a little bit to this:

Maybe at this point we should look at Sansa's warging abilities as in a first stage of sensorial communication; GRRM often indicates that Sansa feels the people around her, so maybe what happened during the BBB was just as QOS described, but more oriented to general feelings. I think she could perceive Sandor's feelings after the song, sense that he wanted to kiss her, that he was terrified, confused, overwhelmed with so many emotions, and that's why "some instinct" made her reach out to him and touch the burned side of his face; she realized that this man needed soothing, affection, peace, and she gave him that with just a brief touch. They both had been drinking, Sandor being completely drunk, and since I'm talking about a first stage of connection centered in sensations and feelings, I think he did feel Sansa but not as someone who's trying to control his body, but as a tender connection between them, somehow like a dog feels his loving master, if you know what I mean xDD Then he leaves the room, leaving the cloak behind, and just as QOS said, Sansa stayed a long time on the bed, probably trying to figure out what just happened. This is when she makes up the unkiss memory, and just as she had felt Sandor's internal turmoil, I think she could glimpse his potential as well: I really don't think the little boy who wanted to be a knight is completely dead inside of him, and he certainly has more honor than most knights in Westeros, it seems. I think the brief connection they shared allowed Sansa to, mostly unconsciously, create a more "complete" image of Sandor Clegane, changing the way she looked at him as a man. That's why, when she crawled out of her bed, coming back into reality, she used his cloak to protect herself from the cold wind, at this point convinced that it was left behind as a token of a confused man who just kissed her.

This "soft warging" theory would explain the change in Sansa's attitude towards Sandor. Why would she feel any fondness for him after he threatened to kill her if she didnt' sing him a song? Also, notice that the first time she recalls the unkiss, she mentions that he had threatened her, but as the story unfolds, what's more important to her in this whole incident is that he kissed her and then he left her. She even seems a bit upset/disappointed about that.

I really liked that QOS brought up this theory, because it brings a whole new meaning to GRRM's quote about the unkiss "...that will eventually mean something". We've been all thinking that maybe Sansa is going nuts, or she will lose her memory, or maybe it's a sign that she's now in love with Sandor, or a way to cope with the trauma... and maybe it's much cooler than that, it's actually Sansa's first experience with warging! *O* I like the idea =) So, 100000000 thank yous for you, Queen of Spades :3

Now, I've been thinking about Sansa's position right now as Alayne Stone and the proximity of the Vale to the Quiet Isle. It's said that the Elder Brother is a phenomenal healer; now, which character is right now in the proximity of the Quiet Isle, in need of such a great healer? My crackpot theory is that Sansa will try to save Robert Arryn from Littlefinger (maybe she will kill LF herself or have someone do the dirty job for her), and as she tries to escape with the boy they somehow end up at the Quiet Isle. Maybe Sansa will receive help from other characters (Brienne+Jaime?), but I think GRRM put such a great healer in the Quiet Isle because someone will need him at one point of the story, and since one of the brothers said that the QI sometimes received sick women, and women with child, it seems to me that it would be a good place for Sansa and Sweetrobin to rest for a while, and maybe the Elder Brother will be able to heal the boy, if not completely, at least to a degree that will allow him to live a normal life. At this point Sansa could leave the QI to return to the North, with Sandor of course, but that's up to GRRM to decide xD

@Lyanna Stark: I loved your comparison of LF and Sansa's game to cyvasse. I think it's remarcable that GRRM decided to throw Sansa into this dangerous game against none other than Littlefinger, one of the best and most dangerous players of the game of thrones...

[Valkyrja]

Megara, great post! You said my thoughts exactly on the subject of where (if anywhere) Sansa might run to with Sweetrobin! I was literally just about to express the same thing.... I can only hope and pray that a certain limping hooded dude would still be there if that were to ever happen..... :P

[jarl the climber]

My theory on this is that Septon Meribald will go back to the Quiet Isle and report what happened at the Inn. Sandor will leave the QI and the Elder Brother will accompany him in his hour of need. This will lead to him meeting Stoneheart. He will go to find Arya not Sansa with the Elder Brother in tow. Sandor and Arya are much more alike and fighting the same demons, so it seems to me that saving her fits his arc better. Then the three of them go to find Sansa.

[willowbark]

There has been much discussing about how the Unkiss is going to be important for the rest of the story. What if it is not important because of the memory itself, but because it is Sansa's first warging experience ?

I like this much better than the idea that she made it up in her own mind. I personally don't like Sandor/Sansa as a couple. I think that Sansa became a symbol to the Hound, of everything that he lost, and everything that he wanted - the impetus to change. That doesn't necessarily have to have a deeper promise of a further relationship. Sansa has already saved him from continuing on the path that he was on, just by existing, and for seeing him as something other than what everyone else saw. Also, I think that Sandor has become a safe man for her to think of, while she is married to Tyrion and then later with LittleFinger. I think a large part of female adolescence is figuring out what you want in a mate, who you are attracted to, and I think that she is using Sandor as one of her references to help her in future decisions. I think GRRM has some long term plan for Sansa, as someone else has already pointed out, and I think that in order for the reader to follow her from her beginning to her end point, that he needed to have trials and tribulations, but also that she would need some happy memories, too, just for sanity's sake, if nothing else, after all else she has been through.

I just hope GRRM's goal for Sansa is to not have her be built up to be the ultimate trophy wife of Tyrion.

I have thought that maybe she might try storing up some of Robin's sweet sleep, only pretending to give it to him, and give LF one big cup of it.

[brashcandy]

Greetings, fellow Sansa-fans! I've had the most enjoyable week catching up on reading these re-read threads in their entirety. I must say that I am very impressed! :)

I've been a member of this board for over five years and prior to that lurked for several years....and let me say that this is possibly one of the best reads I've ever had on the forum, not to mention one of the most welcoming places I've visited on this forum. That an entire thread about Sansa's character development even happened without devolving into a flame war.....well, it gives me hope for humanity, hehe. :P Like you, I am extremely fond of Sansa and over the years have been dismayed to see the amount of loathing directly at her in ASoIaF fandom. :( Maybe it is just because I have always been able to deeply relate to Sansa, but anyway.....I'm glad you all have proved to me that there are other fans who can have mature, informed literary discussion about Sansa, chock full of excellent observations on previously unnoticed details and musings on symbolism, foreshadowing, mythology, etc. All I can say is THANK YOU!! :)

I have some thoughts to share at some point......looking forward to finally contributing. :)

Oh your words were so wonderful to read! :) I'm happy you've enjoyed the thread, and I hope you become a regular poster indeed.

My theory on this is that Septon Meribald will go back to the Quiet Isle and report what happened at the Inn. Sandor will leave the QI and the Elder Brother will accompany him in his hour of need. This will lead to him meeting Stoneheart. He will go to find Arya not Sansa with the Elder Brother in tow. Sandor and Arya are much more alike and fighting the same demons, so it seems to me that saving her fits his arc better. Then the three of them go to find Sansa.

I don't see Sandor actually journeying to Braavos and meeting up with Arya. There's a glaring sense that he still has unfinished business with Sansa, even down to GRRM reminding us of the fact when Brienne uses his name to spur Jaime into action in ADWD. Arya may be returning to Westeros, but I think it will be as some assassin/spy in Dany's camp. I do agree with you that we could see Sandor meeting Stoneheart though. My crackpot is that he's the one who will take over Oathkeeper, becoming a real knight on a quest :)

I like this much better than the idea that she made it up in her own mind. I personally don't like Sandor/Sansa as a couple. I think that Sansa became a symbol to the Hound, of everything that he lost, and everything that he wanted - the impetus to change. That doesn't necessarily have to have a deeper promise of a further relationship. Sansa has already saved him from continuing on the path that he was on, just by existing, and for seeing him as something other than what everyone else saw. Also, I think that Sandor has become a safe man for her to think of, while she is married to Tyrion and then later with LittleFinger. I think a large part of female adolescence is figuring out what you want in a mate, who you are attracted to, and I think that she is using Sandor as one of her references to help her in future decisions.

While I agree with you that Sansa was Sandor's impetus to change, I think GRRM has established and invested in a lot of foreshadowing between the two that suggests they will have a romantic relationship. And there is absolutely nothing "safe" about Sandor Clegane :) True, he became the one person whom she felt she could rely on to speak the truth to her and to keep her safe, but as a romantic prospect he's the most unsuitable, unlikely and dangerous man there is. Not simply because of his temper, which she was able to navigate, but because ultimately Sandor Clegane was nothing more than a "dog." Even thinking about him is remarkable considering Sansa's noble status and the kind of men she was attracted to previously. Even now that she's thinking about kissing him and feeling bitter that he left her, she's still not "aware" on a conscious level that she desires him. Loras Tyrell would have been a safe man for Sansa to think about. Continuing to fantasize about Sandor makes little sense unless GRRM plans to have it all mean something.

[Lyanna Stark]

While I agree with you that Sansa was Sandor's impetus to change, I think GRRM has established and invested in a lot of foreshadowing between the two that suggests they will have a romantic relationship. And there is absolutely nothing "safe" about Sandor Clegane :) True, he became the one person whom she felt she could rely on to speak the truth to her and to keep her safe, but as a romantic prospect he's the most unsuitable, unlikely and dangerous man there is. Not simply because of his temper, which she was able to navigate, but because ultimately Sandor Clegane was nothing more than a "dog." Even thinking about him is remarkable considering Sansa's noble status and the kind of men she was attracted to previously. Even now that she's thinking about kissing him and feeling bitter that he left her, she's still not "aware" on a conscious level that she desires him. Loras Tyrell would have been a safe man for Sansa to think about. Continuing to fantasize about Sandor makes little sense unless GRRM plans to have it all mean something.

:agree:

I think it's important to differentiate between "she changed him" (old romance trope) and acting like the catalyst or impetus for change. In this case it's safe to say Sansa did not change him, she just acted as a catalyst for what was already there. It would be such a waste to not bring Sandor out of the QI so we can see if he turned into a half crippled zen buddhist ninja a more balanced person. With all the reminders of his existence (constantly in Sansa's chapter, often also in Brienne's chapters, occasionally in Cersei's and Jaime's too).

Regarding the "safe crush", if we are looking at it like Brienne's safe crush on Renly, the "safe crush" for Sansa would be Loras. Even after she's become cynical with Joffrey she still goes absolutely gooey around him, is all nervous and even thinks to herself that she's talking a lot of rubbish. Not very unlike Brienne's adoration for pretty Renly.

To contrast further, you have Brienne's fantasy in AFFC about Renly (the standard safe one) and then he turns into Jaime and she tries really, really hard to get it back to Renly again since Renly is safe, but Jaime is not. Sansa has a similar pattern of thought when Sweetrobin kisses her and she tries to imagine the Knight of Flowers, but then he turns into Sandor.

[Raksha the Demon]

This sums up my feelings as well. I just don't think he is sincere about that plan, given the mess happening in the North, and we already know he's deceived her once before on the promise of going home. Added to this is his extremely suggestive (read creepy) comment that younger girls are happier married to older men.

ETA: Additionally, the entire vision that LF presents to Sansa, of her wearing her Stark maiden's cloak, and the Vale armies offering her their swords in one sweeping gesture, sounds like a scene straight from a fairytale that Sansa believed when she was younger, not something that LF would genuinely invest in (life is not a song, sweetling) and probably not Sansa at this time either.

I do think that Littlefinger would like to have a hand in Winterfell; but he's smart enough to know that it may not be that easy to take it back from the Frey-supported Boltons; Winterfell is a long way off for the Vale armies to go, even if the snows weren't falling. He's probably thinking of waiting a few years and quietly stirring the pot; especially since Sansa is so young, he's got time. The Lannister-backed regime in King's Landing will fall; and after that happens, chaos may erupt up North as well, and the Boltons be removed from power. LF may think it's better to wait to move on Winterfell until Sansa is a pretty young widow with a son, so that any of her father's surviving bannermen might think that they have a chance to be ruled by a Northman who will marry her, rather than fighting to put Harry Harding into Ned Stark's chair.

I do think that LF wants Sansa married to an heir to the Vale and having at least one child, or else LF will have no future pretext to hold onto power as Lord Protector (unless the Targaryens take over everything quicker than one thought, and give LF lordship, not lord protectorship, of the Eyrie and Vale in return for his support). Once Sansa has a son by Harry, Harry has no further use to LF and would meet with an unfortunate accident. The problem is that LF miscalculated the closeness of the bond between Jaime and Tyrion and thus Tyrion's escape from King's Landing, and apparently isn't concerned that it might take years for the charges of regicide against Sansa to be dropped, and an annulment of her marriage to Tyrion granted.

Harry might be an amiable young fool rather than a drunk and/or rapist type; but I don't think he's going to become Sansa's Tru Luv. I think she's going to flee the Vale sooner rather than later, with or without SweetRobin. There's a meeting and a lot of unfinished business with Sandor in her future; and almost certainly one with UnGregor, and possibly one with Ilyn Payne as well (hopefully not resulting in her execution).

I soooooo want Sansa to be the one to ruin and/or kill Littlefinger.

[Valkyrja]

Oh your words were so wonderful to read! :) I'm happy you've enjoyed the thread, and I hope you become a regular poster indeed.

Thanks for the welcome....I'm looking forward to it! :)

Continuing to fantasize about Sandor makes little sense unless GRRM plans to have it all mean something.

Oh, yes PLEASE. :D

Harry might be an amiable young fool rather than a drunk and/or rapist type; but I don't think he's going to become Sansa's Tru Luv. I think she's going to flee the Vale sooner rather than later, with or without SweetRobin. There's a meeting and a lot of unfinished business with Sandor in her future; and almost certainly one with UnGregor, and possibly one with Ilyn Payne as well (hopefully not resulting in her execution).

I soooooo want Sansa to be the one to ruin and/or kill Littlefinger.

I agree with all of the above, and I also think she has unfinished business with Cersei. However, someone else might 'finish' Cersei before she can, which would be fine with me. :P I only mention it though because just like with Ilyn Pane, she often thinks of Cersei as someone she is afraid of.....

Edited for clarity :)

[chrisdaw]

She has two things which she could utilise to become a player (that is the attraction for those using her as a pawn), her attractiveness and her claim to WF. Bran and Arya are non factors, possibly Jon too. Rickon's claim is better. If Robb's letter sees the light of day and Jon comes back so may be Jon's. So I'm wondering how far Sansa is capable of going to become a player.

[Valkyrja]

She has two things which she could utilise to become a player (that is the attraction for those using her as a pawn), her attractiveness and her claim to WF. Bran and Arya are non factors, possibly Jon too. Rickon's claim is better. If Robb's letter sees the light of day and Jon comes back so may be Jon's. So I'm wondering how far Sansa is capable of going to become a player.

If you are curious how this might be possible, I suggest checking out some of the previous Sansa re-read threads (if you haven't already), where her character arc has been explored in depth. Even though I have been a Sansa fan for years, I myself learned a great deal from everyone's excellent observations, and some of my own views on her potential shifted. It becomes apparent that Sansa's innate empathy to others (assuming she holds onto it under LF's influence), rather than being a weakness, could actually help her ability to be a player, instead of keeping her as a pawn. :)

[Maroucia]

I don't see Sandor actually journeying to Braavos and meeting up with Arya. There's a glaring sense that he still has unfinished business with Sansa, even down to GRRM reminding us of the fact when Brienne uses his name to spur Jaime into action in ADWD. Arya may be returning to Westeros, but I think it will be as some assassin/spy in Dany's camp. I do agree with you that we could see Sandor meeting Stoneheart though. My crackpot is that he's the one who will take over Oathkeeper, becoming a real knight on a quest :)

Before that, Gendry should do a little work on Oathkeeper so that it looses its lion shape.

[Lyanna Stark]

She has two things which she could utilise to become a player (that is the attraction for those using her as a pawn), her attractiveness and her claim to WF. Bran and Arya are non factors, possibly Jon too. Rickon's claim is better. If Robb's letter sees the light of day and Jon comes back so may be Jon's. So I'm wondering how far Sansa is capable of going to become a player.

I'll have to disagree here that the claim to Winterfell enables Sansa to be a player. Instead, it works against her as a player and transforms her into a pawn.

Without her high birth, she would never have been chosen for Joffrey. Once she got out of that, her claim to Winterfell first had her becoming involved with the Tyrells who wanted to snatch her away to marry Willas and after that she was instead married off to Tyrion. All because of her claim. Littlefinger also uses her partly because of her high birth and claim to Winterfell. If she ever gets free of Littlefinger and/or Tyrion dies, she will again just be a piece of meat to be bartered off to the highest bidder. People also often forget that if Sansa is married off to some lordling, she is his Lady Wife and cannot wield any power herself, but is completely dependant on her husband and what he allows her to do. For instance, a marriage to Willas or Aegon would be disastrous for Sansa as a player, since these two men are already involved in ruling/commanding in their own right. Why should they suddenly invite a random northern girl to help them make decisions?

Now, the part that makes her not a pawn is that she has learnt to exist under the radar in Kings Landing and to hide behind a wall of courtesy. She's also learning from Littlefinger to play people based on what people want, desire and expect, which has nothing with Sansa's high birth to do, and almost nothing with her prettiness either. LF even has a good rant in AFFC to Sansa about how Cersei thinks she is so sly, but she relies on high birth, looks and money alone, which means she brute forces people and events. She doesn't understand what motivates and drives people. Littlefinger basically came from nothing and is now one of the most powerful men in the realm.

If Sansa could indeed be removed from the list of heirs to Winterfell according to Robb's will, then that would leave her highborn, with lots of possible connections, but without a claim so she would not be pressured to marry for political gain, or at least the pressure would be much lessened. She could move more freely and be more like Littlefinger than a potential broodmare. As she is a pretty girl, it would also most likely make people underestimate her something rotten, since "it is known" that pretty girls are brainless fools with their head full of songs etc etc. We already know that being underestimated and "not seen" are two huge strengths, since it makes people spill the beans around you, or they don't expect treachery. Margaery's innocent looks come to mind here, and Dontos telling Sansa he gets to hear far more juicy gossip as a fool than he ever got to hear as a knight.

Sansa has already shown that she can be very convincing as pure and innocent and as a damsel in distress. We've also seen her deceive Petyr Baelish himself when she proclaims herself his daughter, inside and out, while looking him coyly in the eye and thinking Lies and Arbor Gold. If that is not the manner of a true politician, I don't know what it is.

[Queen of Spades]

While I agree with you that Sansa was Sandor's impetus to change, I think GRRM has established and invested in a lot of foreshadowing between the two that suggests they will have a romantic relationship. And there is absolutely nothing "safe" about Sandor Clegane :) True, he became the one person whom she felt she could rely on to speak the truth to her and to keep her safe, but as a romantic prospect he's the most unsuitable, unlikely and dangerous man there is. Not simply because of his temper, which she was able to navigate, but because ultimately Sandor Clegane was nothing more than a "dog." Even thinking about him is remarkable considering Sansa's noble status and the kind of men she was attracted to previously. Even now that she's thinking about kissing him and feeling bitter that he left her, she's still not "aware" on a conscious level that she desires him. Loras Tyrell would have been a safe man for Sansa to think about. Continuing to fantasize about Sandor makes little sense unless GRRM plans to have it all mean something.

I think willowbark meant "a safe man for her to think of" not because he is not dangerous, but because he is far away. ;) She certainly never fantasized about him while he was near.

[Valkyrja]

I think willowbark meant "a safe man for her to think of" not because he is not dangerous, but because he is far away. ;) She certainly never fantasized about him while he was near.

True. She never fantasized about him while he was around, but she did *think* about him.....as someone who had kept her safe (she wishes he were there in the hall with the women during the BBW instead of Ilyn Pane). She wouldn't have fantasized about him because she still hadn't really started 'fantasizing' in a real sexual sense at that point -- she thought mostly about knights from the songs, or those who in real life seemed to approximate them most (Loras). Knights from the songs were the most 'safe' to think about.....

[Lyanna Stark]

I think willowbark meant "a safe man for her to think of" not because he is not dangerous, but because he is far away. ;) She certainly never fantasized about him while he was near.

In that case, Brienne would find it safe to fantasise about Jaime as well, since he's nowhere near her once she gets out of Kings Landing, but she certainly doesn't seem to see fantasising about him safe at all but quite unsettling, and she hurries to try and think about safe, unattainable Renly. :)

I've also argued before that the reason why there is such a difference between the safe/unsafe relationships and how they are setup is not only that the "target" is unattainable (although of course they are, due to both Renly and Loras being gay) but also because of the platonic unattainable crush vs physical and more intimate.

Whatever else, Jaime and Brienne share some extremely physical and intimate moments, with many of them not being particularly positive either, but it binds them together and adds another element of earthy closeness and a very physical and human dimension to their interactions. It's very far from the idealised love Brienne holds for Renly. Jaime she's seen dirty and disgusting, she's been tied up together with him with his rotting hand between them, etc etc.

Sansa and Sandor share similar intimate but not exactly positive moments too, starting with him telling her about his scars, then with the riot, him saving her from falling off the battlements, drying her bloodied lip and of course the pinnacle of all at the Battle of the Blackwater, with blood, fire and suffering everywhere.

EDIT: And for all the people going "BUT OMG THE AGE DIFFERENCE!!" of Sansa and Sandor, go check the official timeline and the age difference between Jaime and Brienne, for the sake of science. ;)

EDIT2: because of really embarrassing spelling mistake

[Valkyrja]

I'm not personally bothered about age differences......my own parents were 16 years apart. It just doesn't faze me. :dunno:

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Well in regards to age difference....Sandor isn't the same age as Rory McCann (bless his studly self)

Sandor was like 26 in AgoT and Robb was 15 when he became King of the North whereas Sansa is now 13...

so in 2 years she will be the same age as Robb was when he became king. She is also the same age as Dany was when she was married off to Drogo.

Jeyne Poole was already passed around the whorehouse circuit and then subsequently married off to Roose Ramsey and she is the same age as Sansa. Everyone accepted her as Arya (who is 2 yrs younger than Sansa) and had no real problems with her being married to Roose. Ramsey

So in the broad scheme....her age isn't that important and its not like she is going to STAY 13 ...the years DO pass

oops....one of those Boltons!!!! lol

[Valkyrja]

Yeah, exactly....GRRM could have easily made Sandor in his 30s or 40s as well......but he didn't. :leer:

[Maroucia]

Well in regards to age difference....Sandor isn't the same age as Rory McCann (bless his studly self)

Sandor was like 26 in AgoT and Robb was 15 when he became King of the North whereas Sansa is now 13...

so in 2 years she will be the same age as Robb was when he became king. She is also the same age as Dany was when she was married off to Drogo.

Jeyne Poole was already passed around the whorehouse circuit and then subsequently married off to Roose and she is the same age as Sansa. Everyone accepted her as Arya (who is 2 yrs younger than Sansa) and had no real problems with her being married to Roose.

So in the broad scheme....her age isn't that important and its not like she is going to STAY 13 ...the years DO pass

Jeyne married Ramsay, not Roose! ;)

I agree with you though, age doesn’t really matter.

I don’t mind age differences in the real world, and in Westeros you become an adult at 14 or 15; if you can be a King at 15, I guess you should also count as an adult.

I know Tommen is something like 10 years old and now officially the ruling king of Westeros, but it’s not the same as Robb who was chosen by his banner men and ruled for real. Tommen is not truly a king, he is more of a tool for the other Lannisters to use and do what they want.