How did Ned Stark beat the Kingsguard?

[CrypticWeirwood]

This seems like an accurate assumption, but it makes me feel bad thinking that Howland would do something like that.

Do something like what, choose not to be killed? Why in the world would that make you feel bad?

[Euphail]

snip

Tthe Kingsguard "were seeking an honourable death in combat rather than surrendering or going into exile".

This to me seems completely out of character. I think it much more likely that they were defending their King, whom they were obligated to protect from those that would prevent him from his throne, and would do him harm.

It was more than reasonable to expect that Ned would not allow him to take the throne, and would either a) force him into excile, B) hand him to Robert c) lie about his birth and keep him in winterfel or d) just kill him the way other "Kings" men had killed Aegon.

They were doing their duty, as one would expect from the Commander of the Kingsguard and the Sword of Morning.

[CrypticWeirwood]

How were they supposed to know that, though?

By talking, of course. Ned was close to Ser Arthur’s sister, Ashara. They could have worked something out, because each knew each other were honorable men. But somehow Dayne had to die.

It’s connected to honor. I don’t know how. Arthur would have taken Ned’s word, and vice versa.

[Silent_Hero]

I'm surprised by this. I always assumed it was accepted that he could. What was he doing on the isle of faces if he didn't have that talent? Why would they even accept him there? I always just assumed it was for his warging ability. (I accept that I might be wrong about this)

Also, Ned's word choice seems deliberate. (or rather martin's choice). He's saying that Howland saved him, which is not the same, in my mind, as defending against a mortal blow. It could be that, but the word choice seems to have a purpose.

There are other threads that have suggested that Howland didn't even kill him, but rather convinced him to leave, or take his own life, in return for Ned's promise to Lyanna. I don't know if I agree with those, but I don't think it's as simple as Howland stabbing him with a sword.

It's all speculation, I believe either Howland Threw a net at Ser Arthur or poisoned him or threw sand in his eyes or turned the ground below him into quicksand or something.

Ned could have been evasive about Arthurs death because well no one imagines such a great heroic knight to be killed by getting sand thrown in his eyes or something equally dishonorable. It's just a sad way to die for a honorable knight

[Silent_Hero]

By talking, of course. Ned was close to Ser Arthur’s sister, Ashara. They could have worked something out, because each knew each other were honorable men. But somehow Dayne had to die.

It’s connected to honor. I don’t know how. Arthur would have taken Ned’s word, and vice versa.

Ser Arthur wasn't in charge, Ser Gerold Hightower was in charge, it wasn't Arthurs call to make. Besides if I was Ser Arthur I wouldn't feel comftorable handing over Jon( let's face it R + L = J) to the best friend of the Rebel lord who killed my Best friend

[Theo1]

What is the best evidence that the fight occurred before the promise?

Here are some thoughts about why the fight could have occurred after the promise. Of course, all of this is just inference based on circumstantial evidence (as are most claims/conclusions made by folks on this board). First, I would assume Ned's reputation as an honorable person was well known, which to me makes it tough to think he rode their to kill his sister (unless Ned's honor is common knowledge from events after the rebellion). Second, there were only seven. If you want to take something by force, then you go in force (unless they were about stealth and had an inside person open the tower up for them). Third, why would the KG sworn to defend the royals walk out of their defensive position inside the tower? Seems like a bad move as their job was not to die with honor but to protect the royals.

So, here are some thoughts about why the fight happened after. The KG let Ned see his sis, she is dying and asks him to promise to keep Jon safe from Robert (question: what did Lyanna name Jon as I would assume most folks name their kids before they are born - I didn't look at my first born and say, I think he looks like Connor). Ned posits that the only way to really keep him safe if go whisk him away and hide his identiy by claiming him as a bastard and not as a royal. The KG would not likely have him just leave with the little one. To keep it a secret, they had to shut the KG up (Ned only wne their with his closest, right?) through a fight. So, Ned, now inside the tower, fires up Ice, and the rest is history.

Someone said the fight was outside the tower. Where does this come from? If so, it undermines my take a good deal. It is possible they fight outside, afterward, but this doesn't seem likely as the KG are not going to just wait outside.

Anyway, happy to rethink if there is some reasoned, supported answers (rather than conclusions and unexamined conventional wisdom).

[Silent_Hero]

What is the best evidence that the fight occurred before the promise?

Here are some thoughts about why the fight could have occurred after the promise. Of course, all of this is just inference based on circumstantial evidence (as are most claims/conclusions made by folks on this board). First, I would assume Ned's reputation as an honorable person was well known, which to me makes it tough to think he rode their to kill his sister (unless Ned's honor is common knowledge from events after the rebellion). Second, there were only seven. If you want to take something by force, then you go in force (unless they were about stealth and had an inside person open the tower up for them). Third, why would the KG sworn to defend the royals walk out of their defensive position inside the tower? Seems like a bad move as their job was not to die with honor but to protect the royals.

So, here are some thoughts about why the fight happened after. The KG let Ned see his sis, she is dying and asks him to promise to keep Jon safe from Robert (question: what did Lyanna name Jon as I would assume most folks name their kids before they are born - I didn't look at my first born and say, I think he looks like Connor). Ned posits that the only way to really keep him safe if go whisk him away and hide his identiy by claiming him as a bastard and not as a royal. The KG would not likely have him just leave with the little one. To keep it a secret, they had to shut the KG up (Ned only wne their with his closest, right?) through a fight. So, Ned, now inside the tower, fires up Ice, and the rest is history.

Someone said the fight was outside the tower. Where does this come from? If so, it undermines my take a good deal. It is possible they fight outside, afterward, but this doesn't seem likely as the KG are not going to just wait outside.

Anyway, happy to rethink if there is some reasoned, supported answers (rather than conclusions and unexamined conventional wisdom).

In Neds dream the KG are waiting outside the tower and they chat for a bit then they fight. Besides there's no way the KG would let one pf the leaders of the rebellion inside the tower without a fight.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

As the preceeding 26 replies explain... It's not as if Ned arrived and fought Arthur Dayne Gerold Hightower and the other fellow all by himself... Not taking anything away from Ned's prowess w/ his greatsword, but he was with 6 of his best men/bannermen, against the 3 KG, better than 2to1 and it was still a very close run thing.

[Theo1]

Ok, found the dream. They are outside, had quite a conversation and it seemed that Ned's view was that this battle was the end of the war. It is interesting the way he describes his companions. He does not think of them as fierce, but kind, loyal, and good men.

According to this reflection they are mounted and the KG ,

May have been on foot as one was kneeling and sharpening his sword. Mounted men with greater numbers would have quite an advantage, so that also explains how they prevailed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

By talking, of course. Ned was close to Ser Arthur’s sister, Ashara. They could have worked something out, because each knew each other were honorable men. But somehow Dayne had to die.

It’s connected to honor. I don’t know how. Arthur would have taken Ned’s word, and vice versa.

As was stated, it wasn't Arthur's call, it was Ser Gerold Hightower's. And you're right that it was connected to honor. Namely the Kingsguard's very rational belief that Ned's honor meant that his oath of fealty to Robert might come before any familial loyalty he might feel for his nephew. After what happened to Rhaenys and Aegon, I think they'd be crazy to take the risk.

[Independent George]

By talking, of course. Ned was close to Ser Arthur’s sister, Ashara. They could have worked something out, because each knew each other were honorable men. But somehow Dayne had to die.

It’s connected to honor. I don’t know how. Arthur would have taken Ned’s word, and vice versa.

If R+L=J, what is there to work out? Ned won't depose Robert, and the Kingsguard see Jon as Rhaegar's heir. These are mutually exclusive. Compromise is not possible.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think Ned and his crew fought fair with the other 2 KG but Howland did something to kill Arthur.

Jojen told Bran that Howland knew the magic of the crannogs and I don't think he could fight well in the traditional sense based on what Jojen said.

[kaukula]

I understand where you guys are coming from but I still think you are underestimating Kingsguard here. We had examples throughout the books of skilled fighters beating numerical odds against less skilled opponents. Syrio took out 4 guards armed only with a wooden sword. And 60 year old Sir Barristan took out several guards when they tried to capture him while he was leaving Kings Landing.

Anyone has a quote at hand who were the six men in Ned's party? I remember Howland, lady Dustin's husband and Jory Cassels father I think. It sounds more like trusted friends (to keep secret perhaps) than high level fighters. Who were the other 3?

[rmanoj]

I understand where you guys are coming from but I still think you are underestimating Kingsguard here. We had examples throughout the books of skilled fighters beating numerical odds against less skilled opponents. Syrio took out 4 guards armed only with a wooden sword. And 60 year old Sir Barristan took out several guards when they tried to capture him while he was leaving Kings Landing.

Anyone has a quote at hand who were the six men in Ned's party? I remember Howland, lady Dustin's husband and Jory Cassels father I think. It sounds more like trusted friends (to keep secret perhaps) than high level fighters. Who were the other 3?

Ned and his men may not have been the greatest, but they would still have been significantly better than the random City Watch men (who aren't even that well armed or armoured) beaten by Syrio and Barristan,

And it's very hard to fight two capable, armoured (making it difficult to take out one so you can focus on the other) men at once no matter how skilled you are, unless you also have superhuman speed. Kingsguard aren't superhuman.

[Dreadnaught]

I was thinking why didn't Ned take more men. But he must have found out or suspected that Lyanna was pregnant before he rode to the tower. So, he only took loyal men who could be trusted to keep the secret.

I don't know why everyone is writing off Howland Reed as a weak fighter, he could use his agility as an advantage like the Red Viper vs The Mountain.

[Groat]

What is the best evidence that the fight occurred before the promise?

Here are some thoughts about why the fight could have occurred after the promise. Of course, all of this is just inference based on circumstantial evidence (as are most claims/conclusions made by folks on this board). First, I would assume Ned's reputation as an honorable person was well known, which to me makes it tough to think he rode their to kill his sister (unless Ned's honor is common knowledge from events after the rebellion). Second, there were only seven. If you want to take something by force, then you go in force (unless they were about stealth and had an inside person open the tower up for them). Third, why would the KG sworn to defend the royals walk out of their defensive position inside the tower? Seems like a bad move as their job was not to die with honor but to protect the royals.

So, here are some thoughts about why the fight happened after. The KG let Ned see his sis, she is dying and asks him to promise to keep Jon safe from Robert (question: what did Lyanna name Jon as I would assume most folks name their kids before they are born - I didn't look at my first born and say, I think he looks like Connor). Ned posits that the only way to really keep him safe if go whisk him away and hide his identiy by claiming him as a bastard and not as a royal. The KG would not likely have him just leave with the little one. To keep it a secret, they had to shut the KG up (Ned only wne their with his closest, right?) through a fight. So, Ned, now inside the tower, fires up Ice, and the rest is history.

Someone said the fight was outside the tower. Where does this come from? If so, it undermines my take a good deal. It is possible they fight outside, afterward, but this doesn't seem likely as the KG are not going to just wait outside.

Anyway, happy to rethink if there is some reasoned, supported answers (rather than conclusions and unexamined conventional wisdom).

I can't remember the exact quote, but Ned inquires to Arthur about Lyanna right before the fight. Why would he ask about his sister if he just spoke to her? I think Ned may have had suspicions about a pregnancy, which explains why he only brought 6 other men. Also, I believe all the other KG were accounted for at that point, so Ned most likely knew there were only 3 and who they were, so he most likely brought experienced swords with twice the number.

[Buried Treasure]

7-3 odds works out at three 2-1 fights with one spare (who would presumably be watching for gaps and guarding the back of the most important person - Ned). Two knights (I'm talking fighting style rather than saying they were actually knighted) would be able to work well together, it's something they train for from childhood, and these men had just spent the best part of a year at each others sides => so they could probably coordinate pretty well.

Howland wasn't trained from childhood in the knightly style, but for a very different style of fighthing. That would not allow him to fight in tandem with one of the other companions without extensive practice to make sure they don't hinder each other. We can't say for certain that Howland hadn't spent a lot of time practising fighting alongside one of the other individuals - but on the other hand there is absolutely nothing to indicate that he had.

So, for me at least, the simplest explanation is that Howland was in the background for the fight rather than one of the first fighters to be committed. That would explain why he was one of the survivors. Ned was probably the other survivor because he was the most important person on their side - and the one the others would be making the most effort to protect from lethal blows.

[Ice Turtle]

About Howland I think the best knowledge we have about his fighting style is Meera vs Summer duel. He used net and trident. The knight that never trained against this type of oponent would be in big disatvantage. I think that Howland used his net against Arthur which allowed Ned to kill him. It's not hard to imagine why Ned thought it somehow dishonorable.

[Euphail]

I understand where you guys are coming from but I still think you are underestimating Kingsguard here. We had examples throughout the books of skilled fighters beating numerical odds against less skilled opponents. Syrio took out 4 guards armed only with a wooden sword. And 60 year old Sir Barristan took out several guards when they tried to capture him while he was leaving Kings Landing.

Anyone has a quote at hand who were the six men in Ned's party? I remember Howland, lady Dustin's husband and Jory Cassels father I think. It sounds more like trusted friends (to keep secret perhaps) than high level fighters. Who were the other 3?

Also, remember that any northern swordsman is worth 10 southern knights. Really the odds were 70 vs 3. Just saying... :ack:

[VaramyrSixchins]

The bigger mystery about the ToJ for me is how the hell did Ned know to go there in the first place? Did he bring only his six trusted companions out of a need for secrecy or because of his emotional state after the KL sack? I suppose these are questions for another thread...

Maybe it implies something about when the fight happens, maybe it doesn't, but I've always found it puzzling Ned's use of the word "they" when remembering Lyanna's last moments. "They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed had taken her hand from his." Eddard I, GoT

If this happened after the battle, and Ned and Howland are the only survivors, why use a plural pronoun like "they"? Perhaps this is reference to a servant or something, but Wylla didn't join the party until Starfall-as Ned Dayne tells Arya, she's served the Daynes for ages.

The most logical chain of events, IMHO, is that the words and deeds in Ned's dream transpired, the fight commenced, everyone but Dayne, Ned, and Reed were killed, and Dayne was getting the best of them. At this point Howland Reed, who was at Harrenhal and knew the Starks well, puts two and two together and guesses there's a baby in the tower with Lyanna, and says something about it that stays Dayne's hand. (Hence the "If it wasn't for Reed, Dayne would've killed me" quote that Bran muses on.)

Ned then goes into the tower, promises Lyanna, and Dayne and Reed, i.e "they", pull Ned away from her body. Ned tells Dayne of his promise, it's decided that Ned will go to Starfall, Dayne's home, deliver Dayne's sword, and pick up Wylla. At this point, Dayne is given an honorable death. Later, Ashara, who was "dishonored" at Harrenhal (by Brandon, I believe), and because it's not apparently widely known that she had a stillborn birth, becomes the rumored mother of the baby Ned brings north.