How did Ned Stark beat the Kingsguard?

[Onion Ring Knight]

Ned did hack up a Lannister guardsman or two, trying to save his men before the horse fell on him and shattered his leg.

[bloodymime]

do we really know how badass Ned was? He doesn't seem to be held in especially high regard as far as a 1 on 1 type fighter, just a very solid leader in battle.

Only swordplay I can think of is Sansa thinking about Bronze Yohn beating Ned down in the practice yard. Royce sounds pretty formidable though.

"She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well."

[Mulled Wino]

Wrong! Nobody hacked up Ned’s leg.

Ok ok, dont be so happy about it.....

[Mulled Wino]

Only swordplay I can think of is Sansa thinking about Bronze Yohn beating Ned down in the practice yard. Royce sounds pretty formidable though.

"She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well."

Im starting to buy into syrio forel being the baddest man on the planet if dayne lost to those guys. Syrio took on 5 with a wooden sword.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Ned was great - to be on par with one of the Kingsguard (old days, not current mockery) requires one to be awesome swordsman

[bloodymime]

Im starting to buy into syrio forel being the baddest man on the planet if dayne lost to those guys. Syrio took on 5 with a wooden sword.

I doubt the Kingsguard underestimated Ned and his men the way those five did Syrio. Been too long since I read it but didn't he do most of his damage in a quick moment while they were concentrating on Arya?

Nope I'm wrong.

But it does show how well he fares as soon as he goes up even against a weaker member of the Kingsguard like Trant in full plate. Even with a real sword Syrio may not fare much better because he'd still have to come in close to use it. Oberyn only succeeded in that style against Gregor in his armour because of the reach his spear gave him.

[Mulled Wino]

I doubt the Kingsguard underestimated Ned and his men the way those five did Syrio. Been too long since I read it but didn't he do most of his damage in a quick moment while they were concentrating on Arya?

Nope I'm wrong.

But it does show how well he fares as soon as he goes up even against a weaker member of the Kingsguard like Trant in full plate. Even with a real sword Syrio may not fare much better because he'd still have to come in close to use it. Oberyn only succeeded in that style against Gregor in his armour because of the reach his spear gave him.

I must needs reread the fight with Trant. I cant remember exactly. Still 5-1 is a lot different than 2-1.

[VaramyrSixchins]

At the end of the day, Dawn is just a very good sword. It doesn't make Arthur faster or stronger than realistic human limits, and it's not just going to cut through other swords or plate armour. The best swordsman ever is still ultimately just a fallible man (remember what Barristan said to Dany about Rhaegar). Ned probably also had Ice, which might have cancelled out the sword advantage to some extent.

True, but Dayne's prowess at fighting is cited again and again throughout the series. Contrast that with how Reed's abilities are described in the KoTLT story, and the crannogfolks small stature and fighting techniques as a whole. It's tough to reconcile that Reed did anything physically combative to save Ned.

Hightower was also depicted as extremely formidable, can't recall if Whent's rep was as stellar, but these weren't nobodies the KG were fighting, either. These were battle hardened, tenacious northmen, fighting out of loyalty and friendship, Ned's closest friends.

Admittedly, I may be trying to shoehorn in what I WANT to have happened, but I truly think it Hightower, Whent, and the 5 northmen were killed first, leaving Dayne, Reed, and Ned, Dayne had Ned beaten, and Reed convinced Dayne to let Ned live and claim Jon as his own.

[Prince of the North]

Admittedly, I may be trying to shoehorn in what I WANT to have happened, but I truly think it Hightower, Whent, and the 5 northmen were killed first, leaving Dayne, Reed, and Ned, Dayne had Ned beaten, and Reed convinced Dayne to let Ned live and claim Jon as his own.

So, are you saying Arthur Dayne's alive? If so, then, um, unfortunately for this theory, no. For just one reason among many why we can be quite sure Arthur Dayne is not still alive, Ned's own POV says they built 8 cairns after the battle at the ToJ: 5 northmen and 3 KG. Lyanna was not interred there but in the crypts of Winterfell.

[Gryff]

So, are you saying Arthur Dayne's alive? If so, then, um, unfortunately for this theory, no. For just one reason among many why we can be quite sure Arthur Dayne is not still alive, Ned's own POV says they built 8 cairns after the battle at the ToJ: 5 northmen and 3 KG. Lyanna was not interred there but in the crypts of Winterfell.

Building cairns and having bodies in them are different things...just saying. It would be a nice twist but I think after Ned's death Howland is the only person alive who knows what transpired at the ToJ. It just makes more sense to me, rather than having two people who know the details. However, maybe Dayne is to let the secret out to someone else in the plot? Who knows? Either scenario could be likely. Type type type George!

[Ser Leftwich]

The fight between the Man in Black and Fezzig in the Princess Bride comes to mind.

"It's been so long since I fought one person." Which is a big factor in when Gregor 'lost' to Oberyn.

The ToJ fight would not have left a lot of room for survivable wounds, for anyone, especially for three determined and outnumbered guys who seem to have a death wish.

[The Original]

3 guys taking on 7 battle-hardened Northmen on horseback don't seem like good odds no matter how skilled they were.

[Mulled Wino]

True, but Dayne's prowess at fighting is cited again and again throughout the series. Contrast that with how Reed's abilities are described in the KoTLT story, and the crannogfolks small stature and fighting techniques as a whole. It's tough to reconcile that Reed did anything physically combative to save Ned.

Hightower was also depicted as extremely formidable, can't recall if Whent's rep was as stellar, but these weren't nobodies the KG were fighting, either. These were battle hardened, tenacious northmen, fighting out of loyalty and friendship, Ned's closest friends.

Admittedly, I may be trying to shoehorn in what I WANT to have happened, but I truly think it Hightower, Whent, and the 5 northmen were killed first, leaving Dayne, Reed, and Ned, Dayne had Ned beaten, and Reed convinced Dayne to let Ned live and claim Jon as his own.

How do you possilbly get the last paragraph? ?????? You "may" nOt be doing anything. You totally made that up, im pretty sure.

Crannogmen fight with poison, and they seemed pretty damn badass in that story.

[Xanrn]

The answer my friends, is in one of Jon's chapters from aSoS and one of Ned chapters from aGoT.

The Jon chapter I refer to is, when Jon is sparring with Iron Emmett who is better that him at the time and beats him. Jon is thinking about something Robb being dead or something and he flips out. Next thing he knows he has beaten Iron Emmett to the ground.

Ned's chapter is when Littlefinger is taking him to see Catelyn in the brothal and Littlefinger pushes Ned to far, so Ned grabs and lifts him by the throat and pulls his knife. Also a chapter where Jon does similiar to Ser Thorne.

Martin calls Ned the quiet Wolf and its always the quiet ones you need to look out for.

So Ned won, because it was 7 on 3, he was likely more than a little pissed off and Martin is not writing Erikson style Fantasy, where one Swordsman can kill armies.

Ned fought Arthur Dayne, he pressed Dayne so hard, Howland got round the back of him. He did this because Anger vastly improves his familys fighting ability.(well atleast Ned and Jon).

But honestly when a man stands between you and your kidnapped sister, it gives you damm good edge.

Honestly 7 vs 3 and only 2 walk away is pushing the boundrys of reality already.

[Nebmai]

Ned seemed to be a very skilled fighter from what we had seen in book one, he kept up with Jaimie before he leg was injured and all else we heard seemed to place his skill at a high level. His death was due to his failure at the political type of fighting not the physical one.

Also although Ned was quite honorable from what we say in book one, if R + L = J is true Ned values family over honor; if that is true all bets are off for the fight at the tower. If he thought his sister was in the other room being raped he might of just had crossbow men take out all in his way until he could get to his kin.

[Ser Greenbark]

I was under the impression that Howland Reed was the Knight of the Laughing Tree (from the tale that Meera told Bran) and therefore a pretty damn awesome swordsman- I think he is being misunderestimated.

[kaukula]

If 3 elite fighters actually fought for their lives, determined to protect their prince, they would have selected strategic defensive position to negate numbers and/or horse advantage of their opponents. Like a corridor, or stairway, I am sure there is location like that in a tower. They could also fight in formation to cover each other's backs, they must have trained for such occasion over the years

The idea they just stepped out in the courtyard against 7 mounted opponents and said bring it, forfeiting their duties and their lives like a bunch of idiots, just makes no sense. That is why I feel that something else must have happened here.

[VaramyrSixchins]

So, are you saying Arthur Dayne's alive? If so, then, um, unfortunately for this theory, no. For just one reason among many why we can be quite sure Arthur Dayne is not still alive, Ned's own POV says they built 8 cairns after the battle at the ToJ: 5 northmen and 3 KG. Lyanna was not interred there but in the crypts of Winterfell.

I'm not saying Dayne's alive at all. He's dead and gone. I'm saying that before he was killed, he reached an accord w Ned, at Reed's urging, regarding what was to be done with Jon.

How do you possilbly get the last paragraph? ?????? You "may" nOt be doing anything. You totally made that up, im pretty sure.

Crannogmen fight with poison, and they seemed pretty damn badass in that story.

Absolutely, I made it up. Speculation is what we all do in threads like this. And I'm speculating that Reed used conversation to end the battle, which is just as valid as speculation that he used nets and tridents, or poison.

I was under the impression that Howland Reed was the Knight of the Laughing Tree (from the tale that Meera told Bran) and therefore a pretty damn awesome swordsman- I think he is being misunderestimated.

It's pretty widely believed that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Lyanna, who's described throughout the story as excellent with a horse. She righted the wrong done to Reed. Rhagar finds out, is impressed, and crowns her queen of love and beauty. Implies that this is what planted the seed of the romance between the two.

[Uncat]

it's very hard to win a fight outnumbered more than 2-to-1, even for the kingsguard. one of which was an old man

Hmmm... this is no shooting it out. Just men and swords. We have seen Syrio do it awa with - what was it five, six, seven adversarys using only a wooden sword. I'm not expert fighter. But 2:1 seems hard but doable for the best sword fighters in town. And the way, I read it, from seven only two survived. So each of the KG knights took two others with him until Reed saved Stark.

[StannisandDaeny]

It's not that difficult. If you're fighting 7 against 3, have 2 men fight 2 safely, simply evading the enemy like Bron did, while a mob of 5 overwhelms and takes down one guy quickly. Not saying this is what they did, but they easily could've.

The show has showed us they probably used the common Westerosi tactic of stabbing them in the back with a spear as soon as they have their backs turned ^___^