Buried Treasure Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 About Howland I think the best knowledge we have about his fighting style is Meera vs Summer duel. He used net and trident. The knight that never trained against this type of oponent would be in big disatvantage. I think that Howland used his net against Arthur which allowed Ned to kill him. It's not hard to imagine why Ned thought it somehow dishonorable. I don't know about that, a trident is just a short spear so it would be the net that Arthur would not have encountered. It's a good weapon for taking an enemy down by suprise, but I don't think it is going to trump a skillful opponent facing Howland across open ground. The playfight with Summer isn't a great example, because a wolf does not have range, he has get close in to attack, - a man with a longsword can keep his distance. Plus, if we are still talking about the start of the fight, Howland cannot go throwing his net around because he runs the risk of entangling his comrades.At the tail end of the fight, when everybody else is already committed (and some of them down) I could imagine Howland getting use out of his net, but it's not certain. I certainly have never got the sense anything happened in the fight that was dishonourable, I have only ever picked up on Ned feeling sadness, not shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Wolf's Vanguard Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I believe Eddard's companions rushed to meet KG in order to protect him, first three were probably killed without KG victims then stepped in the others, Hightower and Whent were killed and their killers either died of their wounds or were finished off by Dayne. Eddard stepped then to fight Dayne and killed him.Reed's role in saving Eddard's life is vague, it was either something he did to even the odds with Dayne (sth honorable thoug, like stepping in while Eddard was disarmed, or passing him a weapon to defend himself) or he prevented Ned from killing himself after the event. At least that's how I imagine it happened.But there is probably simpler answer to title of the topic: with swords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 seems to me people are underestimating Holand Reed because he wasn't a tourney knight or well know throughout westeros. he should have been Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I don't know about that, a trident is just a short spear so it would be the net that Arthur would not have encountered. It's a good weapon for taking an enemy down by suprise, but I don't think it is going to trump a skillful opponent facing Howland across open ground. The playfight with Summer isn't a great example, because a wolf does not have range, he has get close in to attack, - a man with a longsword can keep his distance. Plus, if we are still talking about the start of the fight, Howland cannot go throwing his net around because he runs the risk of entangling his comrades.At the tail end of the fight, when everybody else is already committed (and some of them down) I could imagine Howland getting use out of his net, but it's not certain. I certainly have never got the sense anything happened in the fight that was dishonourable, I have only ever picked up on Ned feeling sadness, not shame.a wolf has more speed than any man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 True, but Summer got tangled in Meera's net because he ran into it (at speed, probably). My point was that a man with a longsword has distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbqq Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 It may be just wishful thinking, but I've always imagined Howland Reed as an unmitigated badass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flinky Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 The net fighters in Sparticus on Starz looked cool and on the Retiarius wiki site they faced men in armour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Kingsguard aren't superhuman.Two of the weren’t, true enough.But the third had Dawn, which changes that equation in favor of the superhuman. Ser Arthur Dayne was the Sword of the Morning: didn’t Martin say that Dayne with Dawn was the best swordsman ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbqq Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Here's a question; if three members of the kingsguard were guarding a tower down near dorne (whilst, as far as I'm aware, the rebellion was never really fought over south of storms end), would all three of them be equipped/armoured for combat in the time since they spotted riders approaching? It seems more likely to me that their watch would have been alternated between the three (there was no mention of other guards or squires, or they would have joined the fight, and i think it's unlikely a raven would have been sent off to the tower), so it seems to me that either one or two must be ill-equipped for combat, and one of them might have been at an ill advantage due to sleep.One thing that particularly struck me about the scene was that Eddard always regarded honor as the highest ideal to aspire to, and Arthur Dayne was by all accounts (including his) a very honourable man. I thought it may be one of his regrets about this fight that he and his companions had killed the man by less honourable means (Howland's nets, or simply by numbers) tham Eddard felt he deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budj Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I don't think anyone wanted to fight that day. I think the KG had to since they took their oath's seriously. If Jon was king, then they had to fight before giving him up. Ned taking him back to Winterfell would be the end of his "reign" and therefore the KG would have failed to fulfill their oath. They were all kind of bummed about it from what I interpreted from the text... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhaven Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Ned's dream is still my favorite passage in ASOIAF. It's just a few pages but they're loaded. Among other things, I think the scene portrays a great tragedy of honor. These Kingsguard are head and shoulders above the current lot and one could say that Jamie was probably the least of the old guard. They were outstanding fighters but also very dutiful and bound to their honor. "We made a vow." Like many, I believe they were there to protect the King of Westeros. They do not recognize Vicerys as the Targaryen King. Enter Ned. One of the most honorable characters in the saga and he respects these Kingsguard. He considers Ser Arthur Dayne the best - not only in prowess but in quality. To the Kingsguard, Ned is a worthy foe, the right hand of the Usurper. He was part of the effort that led to the Targaryen downfall and the deaths of two of Rhaegar's heirs (though Ned was personally innocent, these three knights were not there to witness the events). The scene is about more than the individuals but the factions they represent. Personal feelings, respect, and prior friendships are cast aside for duty.Ned knows he can't talk the Kingsguard down. He knows the news has preceded him from King's Landing. Rhaegar dead. Aerys dead. Rhaegar's heirs dead. I believe Ned had learned what had taken place (R + L = J) and where Lyanna and the baby were. The Tower of Joy was a ruin in Dorne. Out of the way and unlikely. Ned could have marched there with an army and not taken any personal risk if he wanted, but I think he arrived the way he did - only with his most trusted friends (think of Robb's battle companions) who had probably marched with him all through the war - for secrecy. I think Ned wanted discretion so that Lyanna and Jon could return home to the North and live in peace (which he is able to do with Jon). If Robert learned the truth they would both be at risk, especially the infant. After Ned's departure from King's Landing, I think it's an easy conclusion that he will not let Robert's cause lead to the murder of another child. This conflict resurfaces again with Danaerys and Ned resigns from his position as Robert's Hand rather than carry out Robert's wish. The Kingsguard would not be content to let Jon grow up in secret and never rise to his heritage. They would protect him and keep him secret, yes, but as a Targaryen. Always with risk and with the odds very much against them. Ned intended to remove Lyanna and Jon from that dangerous (probably doomed) life and return them to the north. Ned had to take Lyanna and Jon from the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard could not let them be taken away into lives that denied the Targaryen legacy. They were all acting dutifully for what they believed to be the best for Rhaegar's son. A tragedy of honor.The talk of one northern sword being worth ten southern knights is empty bravado as we've seen in the story. Ned faces three of the kingdom's best knights, men who he admires. He does so with his beloved battle companions, men who have faithfully proven themselves as capable campaigners through Robert's Rebellion. But probably not men who have made a lifetime of war and battle. Not fanatics. Not men who have devoted their entired lives to armed service. These men want to go home too.Seven seasoned warriors against three of the best swordsmen Westeros has ever produced. Each of the Kingsguard are probably worth two seasoned men or more. The passage implies that they are ready and waiting for Ned's arrival. Both parties are probably armed and ready for the fight. The TOJ is not much of a factor as it is already a fallen tower. Further, these Kingsguard are all about honor and glory. They believe in facing the enemy head on, not in enduring a siege. They probably believe that if they are besieged in the tower for any length of time they will lose as the enemy reinforces and are already facing a life on the run and in hiding (the reason why they are at the TOJ in the first place) for the survival of their liege. Their hideout is compromised. Time to move on and quickly, for the King.The battle was probably equal. One person would have been left standing out of ten if Howland Reed had not somehow saved Ned from Arthur Dane. I'm blown away by how intense that fight must have been, for both sides, as men like brothers fell one by one until they are all gone except two. A tragedy of honor.Ned took the risk of that battle on himself and upon his dearest friends for the sake of Lyanna, Jon, and honor and paid the price. Powerful stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaramyrSixchins Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Two of the weren’t, true enough.But the third had Dawn, which changes that equation in favor of the superhuman. Ser Arthur Dayne was the Sword of the Morning: didn’t Martin say that Dayne with Dawn was the best swordsman ever? This, Which is why I maintain Dayne had some complicity in Ned's adoption of Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmanoj Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 At the end of the day, Dawn is just a very good sword. It doesn't make Arthur faster or stronger than realistic human limits, and it's not just going to cut through other swords or plate armour. The best swordsman ever is still ultimately just a fallible man (remember what Barristan said to Dany about Rhaegar). Ned probably also had Ice, which might have cancelled out the sword advantage to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 do we really know how badass Ned was? He doesn't seem to be held in especially high regard as far as a 1 on 1 type fighter, just a very solid leader in battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan the Clever Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 do we really know how badass Ned was? He doesn't seem to be held in especially high regard as far as a 1 on 1 type fighter, just a very solid leader in battle.Well, we know he did alright against Jaime. That's not something to take lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexKerscher Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 It was 7 on 3, and the 3 still very nearly won. Seems pretty realistic to me — the superior fighters came close to overcoming superior numbers, as you would expect.Precisely. if they where 7 unskilled fighters the 3 would even stand a chance, but it doesn't matter how good you are - having to deal with overwhelming numbers means certain death. I used to practice medieval fencing some years ago, and it went mostly like that.Unless the 3 fighters where horsed, in which case the fight would take a whole different tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Well, we know he did alright against Jaime. That's not something to take lightly.they didn't fight for long before someone hacked up ned's leg right? too bad they couldn't have scrapped for longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Wait, wait, wait! The HBO series is not the books! Ned and Jaime never crossed swords in the books. Martin has said something to the effect that Ned was an "adequate" or "average" swordsman, nothing more. Then, from Ned's own POV we have something to the effect of "Dayne would have killed me if it weren't for Howland Reed". So, yeah, the three came very, very close to taking out the seven and that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wood of the Morning Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 they didn't fight for long before someone hacked up ned's leg right?too bad they couldn't have scrapped for longer.IIRC they didn't even cross swords in the books though, they talked and before Jaimie left he said to let Ned live, but kill Jory and co. I definitely remember his leg was broken by his horse falling on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 they didn't fight for long before someone hacked up ned's leg rightWrong! Nobody hacked up Ned’s leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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