What is Dany's long-term plan for Westeros...

[GreenDream]

I'm not a huge Dany fan, but I believe that she has good intentions. I believe that she seeks the iron throne because she has been brought up with her brother whispering in her ear that it is hers by rights. (which someone mentioned the quote from aDWD, which I had not pieced together until now, about the woman fleeing her house) I always felt that she should have no more claim to the throne than Stannis, because simply, her ancestors had conquered the throne. Whether those ancestors reigned for 15 years or 300 is irrelevant.

To the bigger question, I don't think she had a clear plan. I think that was part of the reason why she stayed in Mereen. To piece together her plan. I think of Mereen as her practice go at ruling the 7 kingdoms. I believe she states as such in a POV. That if she wants to rule all of Westeros, then she needs to be able to control one city, and not just conquer it, but rule it and have it prosper. I think that was her plan. She is learning as she goes along.

She also wanted her dragons to mature (which could be seen as a metaphor). I believe that her knowing that the Martells are behind her, and also the horn that Euron had will definatelly play out in her actual landing in Westeros.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not a huge Dany fan, but I believe that she has good intentions. I believe that she seeks the iron throne because she has been brought up with her brother whispering in her ear that it is hers by rights. (which someone mentioned the quote from aDWD, which I had not pieced together until now, about the woman fleeing her house) I always felt that she should have no more claim to the throne than Stannis, because simply, her ancestors had conquered the throne. Whether those ancestors reigned for 15 years or 300 is irrelevant.

Sorry, misread you. I agree.

To the bigger question, I don't think she had a clear plan. I think that was part of the reason why she stayed in Mereen. To piece together her plan. I think of Mereen as her practice go at ruling the 7 kingdoms. I believe she states as such in a POV. That if she wants to rule all of Westeros, then she needs to be able to control one city, and not just conquer it, but rule it and have it prosper. I think that was her plan. She is learning as she goes along.

But she shows no evidence, after spending time in Meereen, of doing that kind of planning. If anything, her actions in Meereen — namely staying there and marrying someone there — only serve to entrench her further in Meereen, not help get her to Westeros. If she's in Meereen to plan, where's the planning? That's to say nothing of the distaste I have for her using Meereen (and again, thousands and thousands of lives) as a "starter kingdom."

She also wanted her dragons to mature (which could be seen as a metaphor). I believe that her knowing that the Martells are behind her, and also the horn that Euron had will definatelly play out in her actual landing in Westeros.

I think the Martells are out of the picture in that respect. They'll side with "Aegon" (who's actually in Westeros), especially if/when they learn what happened to Quentyn. And I don't think we know enough about the dragon horn to be able to say outright that it will be an advantage to her specifically. It may end up being an advantage for someone looking to steal a dragon from her.

[BabyMeraxes]

I know that people like to talk about how uneducated and untrained Dany is, and I've used those defenses in the past, but I have to say, the kid's made some pretty competent decisions during the series: Shaming Viserys to ride in the wheelhouse, Taking Illyrio's ships to buy an army, The Astapor Betrayal, getting the Stormcrows drunk and then attacking. I get that you might disagree with these actions on a moral level (I don't), but you have to admit that they were cunning.

Through all her posturing about "the blood of the dragon" (a phrase I don't mind, it serves the same purpose as King in the North), I've always read that Dany's quest to take back Westeros to be a necessary, yet arduous and joyless burden that she's destined to complete. I agree with Quaithe in that in this society, House honor means everything. That's why Robb traveled South, that's why Stannis was so pissed with Renly, that's why Doran sent the Sand Snakes to King's Landing. So of course Dany feels like she has to reclaim the throne she believes was taken from her family through treachery. It's the natural order of things.

Granted, I've been lax on my Dragons re-read, but I think Dany showed major progress in trying to educate herself when she chose to stay in Meereen. I know, I know, you're going to bring up how she fled, but I don't think that was Martin's original intent. I think he wanted her to learn from her experience in Meereen, and I think that she does. Everyone in this series has had moments where they fuck up or were challenged, and for six years Dany was championed as "our hope!", so of course her obstacles are going to be grand and terrible, that's what happens to a major protagonist in a series like this.

Does Dany have an endgame plan? No, but I think she's been doing her best through her entire arch to reach her goal and figure one out, shit just gets in the way, as it does for everyone.

I really need to read the rest of the 5th book, but I foolishly started The Mists of Avalon three chapters in.

[kephv]

You just gave up the world's only dragons, and the world is probably also now doomed. Good job!

Dany didn't know this though. She didn't hatch them to save the world, after all.

But she lives in a world where a Houses's honor is everything. She has the responsibility to restore her house, just like Twyin did, just like Robb did.

If Dany sold the eggs and gave up to live a normal life she'd be admitting defeat while shaming her ancestors. I doubt that anyone in Martin's world would surrender like that. They'd have no honor.

She knows she can't restore her house because she believes she's the last Targ and she thinks she's barren. Her grab for the Iron Throne never goes beyond putting herself in power. Also, the honorable thing to do here, since she knows nothing of ruling or even Westeros, would be the normal life option where millions don't die because of her vanity.

[David Selig]

1- she faces as much scrutiny as Tywin, tyrion, Robb, Jon, Ned, or sansa in these threads. Yet so few of them sprout sentences like "I am the blood of the dragon and I shall take what is my birthright with fire and blood" so frequently.

2- you really believe that she's less ruthless than Tywin? Was it her big sensitive heart that ordered the death of 168 nobles or was it her insane targaryen wrath?

1. No, not even close. Every character has its detractors, some of whom go overboard, but Dany's are way more and more obsessed with her than those of any other character.

2. Of course she's less ruthless than Tywin. In her place he would've probably killed 100 slavers for each crucified slave, and he certainly would've killed by now the hostages he took from the noble families .

[Dr. Pepper]

I know that people like to talk about how uneducated and untrained Dany is, and I've used those defenses in the past, but I have to say, the kid's made some pretty competent decisions during the series: Shaming Viserys to ride in the wheelhouse, Taking Illyrio's ships to buy an army, The Astapor Betrayal, getting the Stormcrows drunk and then attacking. I get that you might disagree with these actions on a moral level (I don't), but you have to admit that they were cunning.

Yes, these actions were quite cunning and clever and this is where she shows that she has a pretty decent level of intelligence. Intelligence doesn't matter a lick, though, when all that you know is untrue babbles told to you by your stupid brother. Ignorance can cancel out any amount of intelligence a person may have. For her, it's even more dangerous than her dragons. I think Dany has the potential to be a truly great ruler, but she needs to spend some time in the classroom before that can happen.

[butterbumps!]

I know that people like to talk about how uneducated and untrained Dany is, and I've used those defenses in the past, but I have to say, the kid's made some pretty competent decisions during the series: Shaming Viserys to ride in the wheelhouse, Taking Illyrio's ships to buy an army, The Astapor Betrayal, getting the Stormcrows drunk and then attacking. I get that you might disagree with these actions on a moral level (I don't), but you have to admit that they were cunning.

Through all her posturing about "the blood of the dragon" (a phrase I don't mind, it serves the same purpose as King in the North), I've always read that Dany's quest to take back Westeros to be a necessary, yet arduous and joyless burden that she's destined to complete. I agree with Quaithe in that in this society, House honor means everything. That's why Robb traveled South, that's why Stannis was so pissed with Renly, that's why Doran sent the Sand Snakes to King's Landing. So of course Dany feels like she has to reclaim the throne she believes was taken from her family through treachery. It's the natural order of things.

Granted, I've been lax on my Dragons re-read, but I think Dany showed major progress in trying to educate herself when she chose to stay in Meereen. I know, I know, you're going to bring up how she fled, but I don't think that was Martin's original intent. I think he wanted her to learn from her experience in Meereen, and I think that she does. Everyone in this series has had moments where they fuck up or were challenged, and for six years Dany was championed as "our hope!", so of course her obstacles are going to be grand and terrible, that's what happens to a major protagonist in a series like this.

Does Dany have an endgame plan? No, but I think she's been doing her best through her entire arch to reach her goal and figure one out, shit just gets in the way, as it does for everyone.

I really need to read the rest of the 5th book, but I foolishly started The Mists of Avalon three chapters in.

A couple of things. I agree that Dany shows a certain cunning, but I don't think that her decisions have added up to anything beyond quick tactics. So keeping morality out of it for a moment, I think the problem for me is more that a ruler can't be short sighted, and I don't think that Dany wants to or is capable of reframing situations in such a way that weighs longterm costs with present ones. I think this has less to do with education, and more to do with a mindset that is innately geared closer to "might is right" than the kind-hearted savior she styles herself as. While I admire her convictions, I think she'd make a better mob enforcer than a Queen (or even a student council president).

Also, I never once got the sense that she seeks a claim to the throne based on a notion that it is her solemn duty to accept the responsibility (which is what Stannis expresses). She wants it "because it's hers," because it was taken away from her and "she wants it back." It's not a burden, but something she feels was taken from her and that she is somehow entitled to. She wants the crowds to cheer her as their "rightful" queen returning, but beyond this, she has no real investment in the throne as more than an entitlement.

I actually see Dany's rulership in Meereen as an example of major regression. Or maybe more precisely, regression in terms of leadership competency, but progress in so far as she accepts a role of sustained force and violence to achieve her ends, and expressly that her prupose will not be a "savior's" role, but a conqueror's.

[BabyMeraxes]

Yes, these actions were quite cunning and clever and this is where she shows that she has a pretty decent level of intelligence. Intelligence doesn't matter a lick, though, when all that you know is untrue babbles told to you by your stupid brother. Ignorance can cancel out any amount of intelligence a person may have. For her, it's even more dangerous than her dragons. I think Dany has the potential to be a truly great ruler, but she needs to spend some time in the classroom before that can happen.

I agree, to an extent, and I think that classroom was going to be her five year stint in Meereen. It's shitty that she doesn't have clear understanding of Westeros, but it's easy as readers who have the whole picture to harp on that flaw. I, like you, am afraid of what will happen if Dany storms Westeros with a wave of Unsullied and three dragons spewing fire, but I don't think that's going to happen (and if it did, her first stop is King's Landing, so the worst she'd do is roast Cersei, to which I say, "Get It.") Dany, like the rest of the major protagonists in the series, will remain vulnerable to her heart-sundering, tear-soaked end.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

She knows she can't restore her house because she believes she's the last Targ and she thinks she's barren. Her grab for the Iron Throne never goes beyond putting herself in power. Also, the honorable thing to do here, since she knows nothing of ruling or even Westeros, would be the normal life option where millions don't die because of her vanity.

Dany's not certain she's barren and even if she is, she can still restore the honor of her house. Their legacy to Westeros . And I'm judging her actions by the Westeros notions of honor under which her world operates. Not by what we might think of as 'best.' These people believe noble birth and lineage mean something.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Double Post.

[GreenDream]

I feel that Dany feels a duty to reclaim Westeros. But she feels other duties to her "children", namely the people she has freed, and have chosen to follow her. After getting the ships from Illyrio she could have sailed for Westeros, almost did, but it would mean abandoning all the people that had chosen to follow her. I think that is her weakness.

But she shows no evidence, after spending time in Meereen, of doing that kind of planning. If anything, her actions in Meereen — namely staying there and marrying someone there — only serve to entrench her further in Meereen, not help get her to Westeros. If she's in Meereen to plan, where's the planning? That's to say nothing of the distaste I have for her using Meereen (and again, thousands and thousands of lives) as a "starter kingdom."

I agree that she messed up quite largely in Meereen. I think her marrying Hizdahr, was to serve her right then and there, with the thought that if she didn't survive Meereen, that she wouldn't be able to ever get to Westeros. She basically told Quentyn that when he offered himself to her. As to say she planned specific battle stratagies to conquer the iron throne, I don't believe she had. Just as she hadn't worked out a plan to take Meereen til she was basically at their gates. I think her strategy is pretty much.... roll with the punches, with the end goal in mind.

I think the Martells are out of the picture in that respect. They'll side with "Aegon" (who's actually in Westeros), especially if/when they learn what happened to Quentyn. And I don't think we know enough about the dragon horn to be able to say outright that it will be an advantage to her specifically. It may end up being an advantage for someone looking to steal a dragon from her.

I definately see where there could be problems with the Martells, especially with Quentyn dying. I think Arch and Gerris will decide how Doran takes the news. Also in the dialogue between Euron and Victarion it is revealed that the horn burned the man who blew it and he died. So far in the story Dany is the only one that seems to be impervious to fire, so perhaps she will be able to blow the horn. Also I like to think that maybe when the horn was blown the first time by Euron's man, that was why Drogon came to Dany in the pits. He was quite a bit away and I don't think it was necessarily the blood that brought him there. Also, someone said that the horn would bring the dragons to their masters, not necessarily who blew the horn.

[Dr. Pepper]

Dany's not certain she's barren and even if she is, she can still restore the honor of her house. Their legacy to Westeros . And I'm judging her actions by the Westeros notions of honor under which her world operates. Not by what we might think of as 'best.'

Dany does think she's barren. She even thinks of it when she is to marry Hizdhar and the ladies want to examine her fertility. She doesn't let them because she thinks she's barren. She may not be barren, but the point is that she thinks she is and she thinks she's the end of her line.

I disagree that her world operates under Westerosi notions. She's never been there. She's spent her entire life in Essos. All of her formative years were spent in homes in Essos. Everything she was taught about Westeros came from Viserys who didn't know anything at all and who also spent most of his formative years in Essos. She identifies most with the Dothraki, who's sense of honor does not align with the Westerosi sense of honor. Her most trusted companions are Essosi. She dismissed one of the two Westerosi advisors she had and she quiets the other Westerosi advisor when he tells her stories that do not align with what she thought she knew to be true. We can't judge her based on Westerosi notions because she's not a Westerosi even if some of her ancestors hailed from there. My parents and ancestors come from another country but I was raised and my identity was entirely shaped in the United States. I can call myself this or that nationality, but it's not actually true.

Restoring honor to a house means absolutely nothing if there is no one to carry on the House name or legacy.

[Kittyhat]

You know, your ridiculous little rants would be taken just a tad bit more seriously if you didn't include such insulting jabs in your posts. All critiques and opinions become valid when the one offering them provides evidence. You can validate your comments at any time by presenting evidence supported by the text.

Any comments that somehow require such validation I do provide such for. And if you don't like being called out on inconsistent treatment of characters, then stop being inconsistent. I stand by what I said; the criticisms of Daenerys as compared with other characters on these forums are over the top. If that assessment upsets you, tough.

You're free to bold any of that you like, too. Go nuts.

I've tried you and I doubt you.

This would be in response to my claim I could trash any other character with similar excessive scrutiny. Okay, no problem! I'll do a fan favorite (and a favorite of mine as well): Tyrion Lannister.

Tyrion hasn't really done anything special, and the plot protects him to a ridiculous degree. Most of his successes are more due to the incompetence of his enemies than his own capabilities. Examples:

He only escapes the Eryie with his life because Lysa is an idiot, Catelyn allows her to take control over the situation, and Bronn just happens to conveniently be there to save him. All his witticisms aside, he doesn't do anything special here; any idiot could have realized his only hope was trial by combat and rolled the dice by demanding it. All he did here was get lucky with plot armor.

His "brilliant" handling of King's Landing? His opponents are mostly idiots. Only Littlefinger (who is also overrated and has plot armor thicker than a tank's; he owes more of his success to the incompetence of his opponents and the fact that no one's ever gunning for him than any actual intelligence on his part), Varys and later Olenna are any real threat, and in the end he's actually undone by Littlerfinger and Olenna anyway. And bringing Shae along? Dumb, dumb, dumb!

Every time he gets thrust into a battle he should get killed in, which is every battle he's ever been in, his foot-thick plot armor saves him again, and it's so absurd that there have even been multiple threads about it on these forums. He credits himself with defending King's Landing, but all he really did was co-opt Cersei's fire idea and add a chain to it.

In general, he's a whoremongering, ugly oaf of questionable character with an overinflated sense of value whose greatest successes can be attributed chiefly to plot armor and the general incompetence of people around him.

Thereyago.

[BabyMeraxes]

A couple of things. I agree that Dany shows a certain cunning, but I don't think that her decisions have added up to anything beyond quick tactics. So keeping morality out of it for a moment, I think the problem for me is more that a ruler can't be short sighted, and I don't think that Dany wants to or is capable of reframing situations in such a way that weighs longterm costs with present ones. I think this has less to do with education, and more to do with a mindset that is innately geared closer to "might is right" than the kind-hearted savior she styles herself as. While I admire her convictions, I think she'd make a better mob enforcer than a Queen (or even a student council president). Also, I never once got the sense that she seeks a claim to the throne based on a notion that it is her solemn duty to accept the responsibility (which is what Stannis expresses). She wants it "because it's hers," because it was taken away from her and "she wants it back." It's not a burden, but something she feels was taken from her and that she is somehow entitled to. She wants the crowds to cheer her as their "rightful" queen returning, but beyond this, she has no real investment in the throne as more than an entitlement. I actually see Dany's rulership in Meereen as an example of major regression. Or maybe more precisely, regression in terms of leadership competency, but progress in so far as she accepts a role of sustained force and violence to achieve her ends, and expressly that her prupose will not be a "savior's" role, but a conqueror's.

Yes, but they're quick tactics that worked in the given situations, It doesn't matter how she did it, what matters is she got what she needed to continue her quest (an army, the support of a rival sellsword company). Maybe she isn't capable of seeing the long term effects, I'd give you that criticism (a criticism that could be made for a lot of the other characters), but I think that it has to do with being an instinctual kind of person, and I think that has a lot more to do with being a kind-hearted monarch than you give it credit for. Daenerys Targaryen is Tracy Flick.

I think what Dany wants, at her core, is the house with the red door. She wants some place where she feels safe and secure and happy, and the road of conquest offers none of those things. There's at least one moment in the series where she contemplates giving up, and staying with her people in Vaes Toloro, so that, to me, kind of proved that she realized that Westeros isn't necessary to her existence or happiness. She resolves to take the Iron Throne because she believes it was stolen from her family through usurpation and she thinks she capable of retaking it with her dragons.

Again, I need to get my shit together for this re-read, but I agree that Dany fails often in Meereen, but I think failure is a part of learning, and I think failure is a very important lesson for the Dany who just came out of ASoS. I would agree with that last part if i thought Dany was going to have the tools needed to be a conquerer, but I doubt she'll be able to pull that off. When Dany gets to Westeros, I really don't think she'll be in a position of military power. I don't think Dany will ever again see success like she saw in ASoS.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dany's not certain she's barren and even if she is, she can still restore the honor of her house. Their legacy to Westeros . And I'm judging her actions by the Westeros notions of honor under which her world operates. Not by what we might think of as 'best.' These people believe noble birth and lineage mean something.

What honor is that, exactly? What legacy is that? What about the Targaryens makes them inherently more "honorable" than any other house? They conquered Westeros because they had dragons when the other guys didn't, but that in and of itself is not "honorable."

Again, I need to get my shit together for this re-read, but I agree that Dany fails often in Meereen, but I think failure is a part of learning, and I think failure is a very important lesson for the Dany who just came out of ASoS. I would agree with that last part if i thought Dany was going to have the tools needed to be a conquerer, but I doubt she'll be able to pull that off. When Dany gets to Westeros, I really don't think she'll be in a position of military power. I don't think Dany will ever again see success like she saw in ASoS.

Learning requires her to recognize, admit and fix her failures. Until the next book, there's no way to know for sure that the "epiphany" she had at the end of ADWD — an epiphany that came from hallucinations — is really setting her on the right path. I do agree that Storm of Swords was probably her "peak" in terms of success and ease of victories and probably won't be repeated.

[BabyMeraxes]

What honor is that, exactly? What legacy is that? What about the Targaryens makes them inherently more "honorable" than any other house? They conquered Westeros because they had dragons when the other guys didn't, but that in and of itself is not "honorable."

What about Egg? Everybody likes Egg!

[QuaitheTheShadow]

What honor is that, exactly? What legacy is that? What about the Targaryens makes them inherently more "honorable" than any other house? They conquered Westeros because they had dragons when the other guys didn't, but that in and of itself is not "honorable."

A legacy of noble rule. That seems to be considered honorable in the books. I don't think they're better than anyone else, but the stakes are higher for her house so she has to do more to regain its honor. I don't know if she'll rule nobly either but that's her goal. That and justice for her family's murder.

Dany does think she's barren. She even thinks of it when she is to marry Hizdhar and the ladies want to examine her fertility. She doesn't let them because she thinks she's barren. She may not be barren, but the point is that she thinks she is and she thinks she's the end of her line.

Its been a while since I read this but I think she vacillates on this sometimes believing it, sometimes not.

I disagree that her world operates under Westerosi notions.

When she speaks of herself as the last dragon she's saying she's the last of her house seeking to take back what was stolen from her house. That seems highly compatible with Westeros views on honor and justice. Now this can easily been seen as vanity since she's all that's left of her house but I think she sees herself as the only hope at cosmic justice for the Targ dynasty.

And she needn’t have grown up in Westeros to understand something as basic as their sense of honor.

Restoring honor to a house means absolutely nothing if there is no one to carry on the House name or legacy.

Tom-of-Seven-Strings and fat-faced peasants will tell tales about Dany and her Dragons until the end of time. Whatever she accomplishes will be the Targ legacy - she's the last Targ. She's writing the last page of their history.

How does that mean nothing?

[butterbumps!]

@BabyMeraxes

I actually agree with you on almost all of that. (I hope my point of being a kind hearted monarch didn't come across as dismissive of it, btw.) I think my one gripe is that I'm not sure she's ultimately so aligned with a savior role, or that of the benevolent monarch generally. And I mean that not as a judgment on how I feel personally about conquering versus ruling, but more as something I interpret Dany's character to be going towards. So I think how I see it is that the savior was perhaps a role she's tried, but not supposed to fulfill given who she is at her essence.

(btw, I hope your "dragon" is well, and you absolutely must PM me if you do end up making a "triumvirate.")

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What about Egg? Everybody likes Egg!

I do like Egg. Egg would probably be embarrassed as fuck to know what a bunch of arrogant, bloodthirsty, pyromaniacal lunatics he'd helped produce.

(btw, I hope your "dragon" is well, and you absolutely must PM me if you do end up making a "triumvirate.")

What, like a threeway?

[butterbumps!]

What, like a threeway?

Just so this doesn't seem like I proposed something worthy of a sexual harassment charge, it was a reference to BabyMerax's pet pug, which is thought of as a dragon, as I recently came to understand in another thread.