What is Dany's long-term plan for Westeros...

[butterbumps!]

@Kittyhat-

I think we might be all in agreement that her "plan" is to raze and burn, via dragons, everything in sight until Westeros accepts her as their queen.

Speaking at least for myself, I'm having trouble understanding what her real endgame is, once she gets the throne. The "phase 2: ? Phase 3: profit" really refers to what is her plan after she takes the throne, assuming she is successful. As in, what does she want to accomplish by taking the throne. She can't free slaves, since there are none in Westeros. It doesn't seem that she's for human rights either if she's planning to Hiroshima humanity into submission. She certainly doesn't seem to have a platform based in an appreciation for consistent justice, so I don't see her making any significant reforms to that end. She has a very strong understanding of herself as special and superior, so I doubt she would try to curb the excesses that Westerosi kings normally enjoy. Does she even want to be queen of Westeros and rule? I think the problem is kind of like what the Joker says- "I'm like a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't even know what to do with one if I caught it."

[GreenDream]

I'm just adding that I believe that Dany feels she has no home. That Westeros represents something that was taken away from her. She can't go back to being a child protected and cared for in the house with the red doors. I think Westeros and the throne are all she has left. ? at least in her mind.

[Dr. Pepper]

Its been a while since I read this but I think she vacillates on this sometimes believing it, sometimes not.

She definitely thinks she's barren. She's had no problem with nudity or sex in public yet she refuses to allow Hizdahr's female relatives examine her. She also wonders what type of special cake exists if her womb is withered and accursed. Even if she vacillates between believing and not believing, it's still there in her mind that it's a possiblility.

When she speaks of herself as the last dragon she's saying she's the last of her house seeking to take back what was stolen from her house. That seems highly compatible with Westeros views on honor and justice. Now this can easily been seen as vanity since she's all that's left of her house but I think she sees herself as the only hope at cosmic justice for the Targ dynasty.

And she needn’t have grown up in Westeros to understand something as basic as their sense of honor.

Tom-of-Seven-Strings and fat-faced peasants will tell tales about Dany and her Dragons until the end of time. Whatever she accomplishes will be the Targ legacy - she's the last Targ. She's writing the last page of their history.

How does that mean nothing?

It's my opinion that theoretical knowledge means little to less. I speak of myself often as the nationality of my parents and I've been taught all sorts of things about the culture and norms of where they came from. I can even visit the motherland with relative ease, but I will never be that nationality. It's very similar with Dany. She can know all sorts of things about Westeros - the true and false things. She can speak the language, know the religion, the names of houses and talk of honor, but she's still Essosi.

No one sings songs about Aegon the Conqueror. Though they do sing songs about the Rheynes of Castamere, but that song wasn't really about the Rheynes, it was about the Lannisters. Is that the type of song she wants? Her legacy being that she brought fire and blood to two continents and someone finally shot her down. The song would be exalting the one who shot her down, not her. Songs in Westeros don't generally favor the losers.

Of as much a one as Robb ever had for his, yeah.

Yeah? How's that working out so far, by the way?

The point isn't whether a plan worked out, the point is that Robb, Joffrey, Balon, Renly and Stannis all had plans to reach their goals and they all had plans to secure the future of their goals. Joffrey's plan didn't work, Renly's didn't work, Balon's didn't work, Robb's didn't work, Stannis' is still pending but THEY HAD PLANS. No ones trying to give them some high hero status by saying they had plans. No one (but you) are even trying to make it seem like their plans might have been better than others. All that anyone (except you) is saying is that they had plans and Dany doesn't.

Fine, I'll play your silly game.

1. Birth dragons (done)

2. Acquire Unsullied to add to army (done)

3. Acquire sellsword companies to add to army rather than wastefully fight them (done)

4. Deal with conquered Mereen and learn to rule in the process (in progress)

5. Let dragons grow to sufficient size (done as of ADWD)

6. Cross the sea to Westeros (pending)

7. Fire and blood (pending -- at this stage any allies would also likely join with her, but she has no real way of knowing whom her allies might be)

8. ???

9. Profit!

Okay, it was a stupid task, but I made a list for you. A lot of the details on reaching Westeros are sketchy because they would depend on intel Daenerys could not possibly have, but it's as much a plan Daenerys had as that list given for Robb was a "plan" he had, which is to say it's mostly just a list of things she's done to prepare and things she yet plans to do, much like his list was.

Was this really so hard? Yes, she started out with dragons (completely uncontrollable, I might add) and three ships and an unsullied army and a tentative goal to march towards Westeros. However, all of that was null when she chose to sack and stay in Slaver's Bay. As of her very last page of ADWD, she still does not have a plan to get all of these things to Westeros in order to claim the throne. She also does not have a plan to secure her throne with an heir.

You call all of us silly for asking for your evidence while constantly insulting us for the evidence we present. This troll behavior of yours is very unbecoming for a forum meant as a light-hearted outlet to discuss books we all obviously love. I don't know where this anger or nastiness is coming from, especially over fictional characters, but it needs to stop.

[Jem]

Dany needs to find a house with a red door, settle down, adopt some orphans and some puppies, and plant some olive and fruit trees. Honestly, she would be so much happier and so would everyone else.

[Kittyhat]

So I guess I should ask- what do you understand her true endgame to be, and what steps precisely do you believe she has taken to get there?

In a lot of ways, it seems to me her goal has been survival. As a living (and possibly the last living, certainly the last as far as she knows) Targaryen, she could never really live peacefully, and this has been hammered home more than once in the books.

Somewhere along the way, her goal also became liberation of slaves. I think this and her treatment of her people goes a long way toward establishing that she'd like to be a just ruler who genuinely cares for her people, her "children." And ... that's it. She wants to be a just ruler, because that's the kind of ruler she tries to be. But she's, you know, a teenager, and she's kind of playing it all by ear, so there are hiccups.

And I think you give Robb way too much credit. His plan didn't extend much farther than "get the people who killed my dad." He just happened to get crowned King in the North in the bargain, and he didn't have a real plan for what to do with that in the end, either. As it happens, he won't need to try and figure it out.

Stannis is a kinslaying fanatic who's currently engaged in a twisted form of doublethink, because he knows full well that his claim that Robb, Balon, Renly and Joffrey were "usurpers" only makes logical sense if Robert Baratheon was also a usurper, and that means he supported a usurper against his rightful king, and it also means he himself is basing his entire claim on that of a usurper. Davos even calls him out in it, and he doesn't like that in the slightest but can't actually directly argue the point. Currently, he's hanging out with evil, black magic-using witches and flirting with becoming the new Lord of Darkness. If he didn't die off-screen in a stupid, failed march.

Renly at least was honest, as he knew full well he was basically usurping, but as he pointed out, hey -- so did Robert, and that was the entire basis of Stannis's claim! But he got killed when Stannis and Melisandre used cheat codes, so we never got to see much of how he really planned to rule. It seems like he'd have been well-liked (very important in a ruler), whether actually effective otherwise or not.

[Faint]

I'm so convinced that Daenerys is destined to die young that I truthfully consider the question posted by this thread altogether meaningless.

Daenerys will probably conquer half the known world, save humanity from the Others, die soon thereafter and achieve immortality in legend. She's basically Aegon the Conqueror and Azor Ahai rolled into one.

Think Alexander the Great with breasts and you won't go wrong.

[etu]

Fine, I'll play your silly game.

1. Birth dragons (done)

2. Acquire Unsullied to add to army (done)

3. Acquire sellsword companies to add to army rather than wastefully fight them (done)

4. Deal with conquered Mereen and learn to rule in the process (in progress)

5. Let dragons grow to sufficient size (done as of ADWD)

6. Cross the sea to Westeros (pending)

7. Fire and blood (pending -- at this stage any allies would also likely join with her, but she has no real way of knowing whom her allies might be)

8. ???

9. Profit!

Okay, it was a stupid task, but I made a list for you. A lot of the details on reaching Westeros are sketchy because they would depend on intel Daenerys could not possibly have, but it's as much a plan Daenerys had as that list given for Robb was a "plan" he had, which is to say it's mostly just a list of things she's done to prepare and things she yet plans to do, much like his list was.

Oh, by the way, how is old Robb coming along with his grand master plan of his, masterful planner that he is?

I'd suggest you leave out the pointless snark and concentrate on the matter of hand, out of courtesy if nothing else.

1. Done

2. Done - Although how many are left, between the attacks and the flux?

3. Semi-done. She's lost one of the companies she'd gained as things stand directly to her enemies.

4. I'm afraid to say I don't see a great deal of progress. Mereen is nowhere near to being a secure society and such peace as she has is to a certain extent dictated by factions objectionable to her.

5. Done. She has however not learned to control them, and has neglected opportunities to do so, so this is of dubious value.

6. It's not pending. She has rejected her one (admittedly inadequate offer of ships to date) and has shown very little progress to date. It's yet to be started truthfully, and she's about to be 'rescued' for better or for worse by a bolt from the blue.

7. She has made no attempt to find allies as far as I can see. Nor has she considered where to land. Nor does she appear to be trying to gather intelligence. She does not have a plan for this stage.

Having looked at the points, I would agree there is a plan up until she leaves the shores of Mereen. Then there is no plan. Nor are there any serious attempts, insofar as I can see, to come up with one. Admittedly, that's partially because Mereen is very pressing. But then Mereen itself was a sudden improvisation with no consideration to the feasibility of such a move. She walked straight into a tarpit. As a result, she isn't sticking to her plan very well, or carrying it out very competently at this stage. Her plan, as presented, does not seriously extend to Westeros, and she's taking no actions to improve this. If anything; her actions seem to be hurting her chances.

edit: Feel free to correct me Kittyhat, or anyone else whose knowledge of the books is better if I got something wrong i.e. most people here ;)

[Kittyhat]

You mean the dragons that she can't control, the dragons that are now loose and feral and the dragons that could fall into the possession of an enemy? Pretty sure she can only ever ride one.

Pretty sure one is a reasonably solid number when you're dealing with something akin to a tactical nuke.

And sure it's hard, and she's struggling. Be pretty boring if it were easy.

Do you genuinely feel the need to be such a nasty, spiteful, unpleasant person? I'm curious. Everything is "stupid" or "silly" to you. And for all your nastiness toward Robb, the son of a bitch is still dead. So you should have a song in your heart over that.

Do you?

And I actually liked Robb. I'm just sick of people like you being constantly and excessively nasty, like broken records, about a character you don't like, not to mention holding her to insane standards you hold no other character in the series to.

Okay, I get it. You don't like Daenerys. I don't like Stannis, but my every third post isn't about how I'd like him to die horribly.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In a lot of ways, it seems to me her goal has been survival. As a living (and possibly the last living, certainly the last as far as she knows) Targaryen, she could never really live peacefully, and this has been hammered home more than once in the books.

Is this not a self-fulfilling prophecy? "You're a Targaryen, you'll never be able to live in peace, so you might as well burn a few cities to the ground for good measure." Despite Viserys' paranoid rantings, Robert never lifted a finger to touch them until Dany got married and pregnant (and, to be fair, invading Westeros was their goal). Had she sold the eggs when Drogo died and bought a house with a red door in Braavos, nobody in Westeros would have noticed or cared. They can't live peacefully because they're the ones stirring up the conflict.

[Kittyhat]

I'm so convinced that Daenerys is destined to die young that I truthfully consider the question posted by this thread altogether meaningless.

Daenerys will probably conquer half the known world, save humanity from the Others, die soon thereafter and achieve immortality in legend. She's basically Aegon the Conqueror and Azor Ahai rolled into one.

Think Alexander the Great with breasts and you won't go wrong.

Could totally be. I wouldn't even be upset if she died would be able to accept her death, provided it were appropriately at the end of an arc that actually makes sense, such as what you suggest.

[Faint]

Isn't anybody going to cut her some slack for birthing dragons that, you know, are going to save the world?

[Kittyhat]

Is this not a self-fulfilling prophecy? "You're a Targaryen, you'll never be able to live in peace, so you might as well burn a few cities to the ground for good measure." Despite Viserys' paranoid rantings, Robert never lifted a finger to touch them until Dany got married and pregnant (and, to be fair, invading Westeros was their goal). Had she sold the eggs when Drogo died and bought a house with a red door in Braavos, nobody in Westeros would have noticed or cared. They can't live peacefully because they're the ones stirring up the conflict.

Er, let's try to remember that an assassin showed up to try to kill her while Drogo was still alive, and Daenerys was doing nothing special save getting pregnant.

Your don't think your post is maybe, just maybe, ever so slightly naive? Daenerys was just supposed to say, "Well, gee. One assassin showed up to kill me already -- oh wait, it's been two now -- but I'm sure that'll be the last now. It'll be cool."

You don't think that wouldn't be, you know ... just a little ... fucking stupid? You'd really choose to live out your days on a roll of the dice, helpless and in constant fear, because you might not be murdered in your sleep one day? Maybe, if you're a good girl and really, really lucky?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Do you?

I admit I have my smartass moments, but I like to think that if I was ever as genuinely rude and nasty as you've been to multiple people on this forum trying to engage you in debate in good faith, someone would call me on it.

And I actually liked Robb. I'm just sick of people like you being constantly and excessively nasty, like broken records, about a character you don't like, not to mention holding her to insane standards you hold no other character in the series to.

Okay, I get it. You don't like Daenerys. I don't like Stannis, but my every third post isn't about how I'd like him to die horribly.

Oh, you mean someone has the gall to vocally dislike a character that you like on an Internet forum? Grow up and get the fuck over it. You think I like people calling Jon boring and cliched? I don't, but I also don't call them "stupid," either, because that's the response of an immature child. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, there's a good reason why Dany has so many detractors that has nothing to do with her having tits and a vag? Perish the thought! And as much as I dislike her, my arguments are based as much as possible on what's in the books. If I bring up something she did that I dislike, or something she says that I don't agree with, it has a basis in the books. Which is more than I can say for most of your arguments on this thread so far, where people have repeatedly asked you for textual evidence of Dany's plans and all you do is throw blame on Robb or Stannis or Renly or someone who isn't Dany. It's transparent as a glass window.

I actually post in a wide variety of threads on a wide variety of topics, as other posters could no doubt attest to. I don't have to defend anything to you when what I've said is visible in my posting history if you care to look it up.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Er, an assassin showed up to try to kill her while Drogo was still alive.

Your don't think your post is maybe, just maybe, ever so slightly naive? Daenerys was just supposed to say, "Well, gee. One assassin showed up to kill me already -- oh wait, it's been two now -- but I'm sure that'll be the last now. It'll be cool."

And the only reason said assassin was sent was because Dany and Viserys were actively trying to get the Dothraki to invade Westeros. Again, they can't live peacefully because they won't live peacefully.

ETA: Incidentally, all interest in her in Westeros died when Ned and Robert did. Do any of the five kings give a damn about her? No. Would any of them have sent anyone after her if she'd "retired"? I doubt it, but that's what's so nice about having a lot of money — it can buy nice, tall, thick gates and a lot of bodyguards.

You don't think that wouldn't be, you know ... just a little ... fucking stupid?

I hope you realize what a petty, nasty little person you come off as.

[Kittyhat]

And the only reason said assassin was sent was because Dany and Viserys were actively trying to get the Dothraki to invade Westeros. Again, they can't live peacefully because they won't live peacefully.

No, the assassin was sent because she was alive and pregnant, period. Robert had no clue whether she actually intended to invade or even try to invade.

I hope you realize what a petty, nasty little person you come off as.

Oh, go on. Write me more love notes.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No, the assassin was sent because she was alive and pregnant, period. Robert had no clue whether she actually intended to invade or even try to invade.

Oh come on. It was plain as day what they were doing and Robert knew it as soon as they found out about the marriage. And he was right.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

1. Take what is mine with fire and blood

2. ????

3. Profit

[Dr. Pepper]

Isn't anybody going to cut her some slack for birthing dragons that, you know, are going to save the world?

There's a really interesting thread going on dissecting the whole pyre event and questioning whether Dany was even an ingredient in birthing the dragons. Lots of good evidence and thoughts on that thread.

We don't know if dragons are going to save the world. All we know of dragons is that they've been used to enslave people in Valyria, they have been used to conquer Westeros, and before they died, they were used as a WMD threat to keep control of the realms. What we've seen of Dany's dragons is that they are very uncontrollable and dangerous. They've never been used or implied to have been used as a weapon to save the world. It's hard to imagine GRRM not leaving any breadcrumbs to suggest that they can or will be saviors.

[butterbumps!]

In a lot of ways, it seems to me her goal has been survival. As a living (and possibly the last living, certainly the last as far as she knows) Targaryen, she could never really live peacefully, and this has been hammered home more than once in the books.

Somewhere along the way, her goal also became liberation of slaves. I think this and her treatment of her people goes a long way toward establishing that she'd like to be a just ruler who genuinely cares for her people, her "children." And ... that's it. She wants to be a just ruler, because that's the kind of ruler she tries to be. But she's, you know, a teenager, and she's kind of playing it all by ear, so there are hiccups.

And I think you give Robb way too much credit. His plan didn't extend much farther than "get the people who killed my dad." He just happened to get crowned King in the North in the bargain, and he didn't have a real plan for what to do with that in the end, either. As it happens, he won't need to try and figure it out.

Stannis is a kinslaying fanatic who's currently engaged in a twisted form of doublethink, because he knows full well that his claim that Robb, Balon, Renly and Joffrey were "usurpers" only makes logical sense if Robert Baratheon was also a usurper, and that means he supported a usurper against his rightful king, and it also means he himself is basing his entire claim on that of a usurper. Davos even calls him out in it, and he doesn't like that in the slightest but can't actually directly argue the point. Currently, he's hanging out with evil, black magic-using witches and flirting with becoming the new Lord of Darkness. If he didn't die off-screen in a stupid, failed march.

Renly at least was honest, as he knew full well he was basically usurping, but as he pointed out, hey -- so did Robert, and that was the entire basis of Stannis's claim! But he got killed when Stannis and Melisandre used cheat codes, so we never got to see much of how he really planned to rule. It seems like he'd have been well-liked (very important in a ruler), whether actually effective otherwise or not.

So I think I get really sad by the idea that Dany's time in Meereen was a testing ground. Besides the slavers with the word "villain" tattooed on their foreheads, there were freemen and former slaves who are very much innocents in all of this that have suffered because of Dany's trial period. That they are the proverbial "other" does not mitigate this for me- would you feel the same way if they were Westerosi smallfolk that you sympathize with? I think it's myopic to view Meereen as "Westeros: a prequel to ruling," especially when the contention is that she's somehow learning something about ruling in the process.

If she's learning anything, it's that she absolutely HATES ruling, even in times of relative stability (she finds court tiresome and spends a few weeks hanging out in her rooftop pool).

Also, here's the thing about Dany's claim. Aegon I Conquered Westeros. Until he did this, there was no unified throne to speak of. He was a conqueror, inventing a position of supreme authority where none previously existed. Years later, Robert overthrew Aerys. Aerys broke an social contract with his subjects when he began indiscriminately killing members of his major houses. Robert led a coup d'etat against him, not because he "wanted to" but because Aerys was a an abysmal king whose continued presence on the throne threatened the safety of himself and others he held allegiances with. It was kill of be killed so Robert "usurped" the throne, which really just means that he deposed a very incompetent king who broke a social contract. By deposing Aerys, the Targaryens were no longer the ruling family, having fairly lost their position by a challenge. Dany, on the other hand, claims continued right to the Targaryen dynasty, not recognizing the fact that her family lost a challenge, and thus, any "birthright" to that throne. But that's not the way it works. If she comes in to retake the throne, she is likewise a "usurper" because she is using force to challenge the current ruling family who won it through conquest.

So, since the Baratheons are the current dynastic family, Stannis is not a usurper, whereas is Dany comes to Westeros and conquers the throne through force, SHE is the usurper, because she is not of the Baratheon line, or an heir to the throne. To that end, Renly was a kind of usurper, because he was attempting to jump the line of succession. And regarding her thoughts on the matter, Apple brought up a very good parallel between her thought on the usurping of her dynastic right and the woman who petitions Dany in court to get her house back after some "usurpers" took it away from her. Dany sides with the usurpers, saying that when one flees, they lose all rights. Which is ironic.

Isn't anybody going to cut her some slack for birthing dragons that, you know, are going to save the world?

There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that those dragons- whoever is in control of them- are going to be the problem the world needs saving from.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that those dragons- whoever is in control of them- are going to be the problem the world needs saving from.

Truer words were never spoken. No evidence that they're good for anything but complete and total destruction.