Zimmerman trial update: now with medical reports

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

The evidence seems to indicate that Martin had no other injuries besides the wounds to his knuckles and the gun shot wound, and the witnesses in closest proximity to the scene interviewed at the scene identify Martin as the attacker and Zimmerman as the person calling for help - not from the tape, the guy who called 911 said he did it because Zimmerman was calling for help and that he yelled back out to him that he was calling 911.

I'm not sure what each person's respective level of injury has to do with the ultimate question of who started the physical confrontation. Zimmerman clearly ended up on the losing side of the physical confrontation - but that fact in and of itself doesn't tell us whether he started the fight or not. If Martin's girlfriend's statement is to be believed, an alternative scenario might be that Zimmerman approached Martin, pushed him or grabbed him, and that sparked the physical confrontation.

I'm also well aware of the statement of "John Doe," but that's just one piece of the puzzle. There's at least one other supposed eyewitness who has gone public stating that she saw Zimmerman on top of Martin during the altercation but before the gunshot went off. I'm not quite sure why you're so prepared to take the word of one anonymous witness over another.

[Tempra]

I'm not sure what each person's respective level of injury has to do with the ultimate question of who started the physical confrontation. Zimmerman clearly ended up on the losing side of the physical confrontation - but that fact in and of itself doesn't tell us whether he started the fight or not. If Martin's girlfriend's statement is to be believed, an alternative scenario might be that Zimmerman approached Martin, pushed him or grabbed him, and that sparked the physical confrontation.

Martin's girlfriend was not an eye-witness. Instead, she hypothesized that Zimmerman pushed Martin because she heard his phone hit the ground. I am not sure how she can reach that conclusion with any type of certainty. Isn't it possible that she actually heard Martin drop the headset to attack Zimmerman? The state has an uphill battle if her testimony is all that supports Zimmerman initiating the confrontation.

[CloudFlare]

Facts I would like to know and do not know: (1) What was Martin doing in the neighborhood? It does not appear as though his father or his fiancee were home. I have not come across any statements from the fiancee. Some accounts say that he was hanging out with his father's fiancee's son. But he was shot 70 yards from their back door is there is no mention of any of them on scene. His father didn't report him missing until the next day. If anyone was home, they would have noticed that he was shot, no? Everyone else in the neighborhood did

I'd really like to know as well. I'm also curious about some conflicting media reports. Trayvon's parents have said they didn't know he was suspended, but I recall reading elsewhere that he was sent to his dad's because of the suspension.

I'm also curious what the parents do for a living, and what their background is.

I'm very curious about the call to the girlfriend as well.

[CloudFlare]

Martin's girlfriend was not an eye-witness. Instead, she hypothesized that Zimmerman pushed Martin because she heard his phone hit the ground. I am not sure how she can reach that conclusion with any type of certainty. Isn't it possible that she actually heard Martin drop the headset to attack Zimmerman? The state has an uphill battle if her testimony is all that supports Zimmerman initiating the confrontation.

The girlfriend spoke with the Martin family lawyer, Benjamin Crump, before the police did. Any board lawyers know if this would damage her testimony?

[Sci-2]

Incredible. I have been writing essentially the same as what Raidne has been; yet she is lauded as reasonable and I have been lambasted as racist. I would be interested in knowing what makes Raidne's words appear reasoned and rational and mine appear so vile...when I have been positing the same things.

Well the reporting on this has been atrocious, but I'd say the big thing is Raidne is talking now after the medical evidence is showing a different story than the one we were initially presented with.

I still think Zimmerman is both racist and stupid, and looking out for unknown black people because some committed crimes in the neighborhood is different than electing yourself Shane the Cowboy and confronting people because you think having a gun makes you a tough guy.

As has been noted, carrying a gun doesn't mean you should feel comfortable about seeking confrontation. Neighborhood Watch people aren't supposed to carry guns, following people around.

[CloudFlare]

I still think Zimmerman is both racist and stupid, and looking out for unknown black people because some committed crimes in the neighborhood is different than electing yourself Shane the Cowboy and confronting people because you think having a gun makes you a tough guy.

From an April 27th Reuters article:

Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account. "Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."

And:

But it was the August incursion into the home of Olivia Bertalan that really troubled the neighborhood, particularly Zimmerman. Shellie was home most days, taking online courses towards certification as a registered nurse. On August 3, Bertalan was at home with her infant son while her husband, Michael, was at work. She watched from a downstairs window, she said, as two black men repeatedly rang her doorbell and then entered through a sliding door at the back of the house. She ran upstairs, locked herself inside the boy's bedroom, and called a police dispatcher, whispering frantically. "I said, 'What am I supposed to do? I hear them coming up the stairs!'" she told Reuters. Bertalan tried to coo her crying child into silence and armed herself with a pair of rusty scissors. Police arrived just as the burglars - who had been trying to disconnect the couple's television - fled out a back door. Shellie Zimmerman saw a black male teen running through her backyard and reported it to police.

After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open. "He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."

If you read the rest of the article, it details a lot of other crime in the neighborhood. The Sanford police always seemed one step behind, which explains a lot of why Zimmerman did what he did. The article also details why Zimmerman got a gun, and an earlier 911 call where he didn't want to confront suspicious people.

[dalThor]

While recent coverage does indeed show evidence of a confrontation taking place we STILL DO NOT KNOW WHO INITIATED IT. Sorry for the caps, but I doubt anyone around here is omniscient and it seems necessary to point that fact out over and over again.

The fact does remain that had Zimmerman not gotten out of his car to unnecessarily follow Martin, the kid would still be alive today. It's still my opinion that Zimmerman is a racist douchebag.

[Lord O' Bones]

Incredible. I have been writing essentially the same as what <someone> has been; yet she is lauded as reasonable and I have been lambasted as racist. I would be interested in knowing what makes <someone>'s words appear reasoned and rational and mine appear so vile..

She waited until there was enough actual evidence to back up her query's and suppositions.

Also, <someone> never goes on lengthy diatribes about the Palestinians while referring to them for pages as "Pali's," after several requests to stop doing that.

Maybe, the difference is that we were not on the look out for a hilarious car salesman. However we had been told that there was a suspicious sounding chiropractor running around these parts. Or "a black man in a hoodie" if you will.

[Seli]

As far as I can tell the last burglary/thefts were 3 weeks before the shooting, but in that case the suspect was arrested also solving some other cases. In general while the crime rate was relatively high police response seems to have been quite good and the number of cases solved seems impressive for break-ins and thefts. (skimming information from here http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/28/zimmerman-s-twin-lakes-community-was-on-edge-before-trayvon-shooting.html)

In the end someone was shot because someone else acted stupidly to start with. Following someone that at some level you are afraid of, in a relatively agitated state of mind, while carrying the false security blanket of a gun, while it is in no way needed, is stupid. And I could see it handled the same way as a death in a drunk driving incident.

How the final confrontation played out is still important, but not without losing sight of the fact it would never have happened if not for a series of decisions by Zimmerman. And that bit is so much of a mess, and barring new evidence so difficult to disentangle I would still be fine with the initial actions of Zimmerman weighing heavily in the verdict.

Regarding initiation, I would assume something as simple as Zimmerman non-lawfully detaining Martin after an initial conversation would be enough for Martin to feel threatened. And that is before considering something like Zimmerman showing he was carrying in an attempt to convince Martin he had better play nice and comply.

[mormont]

[mod] Let's not make this about personalities, OK? The previous thread got closed because of silly interpersonal bickering, and I've already had to deal with more of the same this time around.[/mod]

[Lord O' Bones]

And everything ultimately speaks to Zimmerman most likely being innocent of a crime.

And the Florida legislature and it's electorate being guilty as fuck for being stupid and allowing this to happen.

ETA: Sorry boss. Just trying to answer the nice lady's question.

[ljkeane]

It's also looking like the weight of evidence indicates that Martin brutally attacked Zimmerman. It's too bad that Zimmerman shot him, it really is. He should have waited for the police. But there's no evidence that he actually started the altercation, and you can't attack someone for following you.

Brutally attacked? I'd say that there appears to be sufficient evidence that we know about so far to say with confidence that Zimmerman was punched in the nose at least once and that at some point he banged the back of his head but not particularly hard considering he didn't have concussion or need stitches. It's possible he was attacked but that's about it at this point I'd say.

[Tempra]

And everything ultimately speaks to Zimmerman most likely being innocent of a crime.

And the Florida legislature and it's electorate being guilty as fuck for being stupid and allowing this to happen.

ETA: Sorry boss. Just trying to answer the nice lady's question.

If Zimmerman's story is true, SYG is irrelevant. He would walk in every state because he acted out of self-defense.

[Tempra]

Brutally attacked? I'd say that there appears to be sufficient evidence that we know about so far to say with confidence that Zimmerman was punched in the nose at least once and that at some point he banged the back of his head but not particularly hard considering he didn't have concussion or need stitches. It's possible he was attacked but that's about it at this point I'd say.

Possible? Do you think he walked into a glass door and broke his nose?

[ljkeane]

Possible? Do you think he walked into a glass door and broke his nose?

I think it's quite possible to get punched in the nose even if you started the fight.

[Lord O' Bones]

If Zimmerman's story is true, SYG is irrelevant. He would walk in every state because he acted out of self-defense.

You can't possibly believe this. Every state?

In any case, I believe he should probably walk.

How does this not explicitly remind anyone that SYG legislation as at best poorly considered?

[Tempra]

I think it's quite possible to get punched in the nose even if you started the fight.

Fair enough. However, don't you think it is a bit strange that an armed person intent on murdering a black kid-- as the state alleges-- would allow a his target to get close enough to assault him? That's possible, of course, but Zimmerman's story makes more sense. And that's the real problem for the state. Since we have no eyewitnesses or video, we have to piece together what little information we have to make s coherent statement. And, right now, the facts seem to favor Zimmerman's story.

[ljkeane]

However, don't you think it is a bit strange that an armed person intent on murdering a black kid-- as the state alleges-- would allow a his target to get close enough to assault him?

I think it's unlikely Zimmerman set out to murder Martin but it doesn't strike me as particularly unlikely that, as Flow said earlier in the thread, he confronted Martin then tried to restrain him and wait for the police and then Martin, justifiably, punched him and he fell over, panicked and shot Martin. That's not sufficient justification to kill someone for me.

[Lord O' Bones]

Tempra, there is only one side to this story. Zimmerman's.

And then there is the states' case, the public Zimmerman supporters and the opposition public's opinion.

None of which are the other side to the story. That one is dead.

You of all people should know that using clever people to debate the law to discover truth is one of the most horribly flawed ideas to hold.

[Guest Raidne]

Nestor - I give more weight to the statement of the 911 caller because he seems to have been closer to the event, gave his statement at the scene, etc. I evaluate the credibility of conflicting statements every single day, and these are the things you judge them on. Having said that, I'm saying "seems." This is why we have trials - they are a formal fact-finding process.

And I don't know who attacked who. But the nature of the injuries indicate that Martin attacked Zimmerman. The thing is, you don't ever get conclusive evidence generally, so we'll never know for sure. There's no truth in past events. But that's the way it's looking to me so far.

Some people in this thread are acting like a person is guilty unless it can be conclusively proven that they aren't, but that's not how the criminal law works.

RiL, let's not get ahead of ourselves. I fully expect to get fully taken to task sooner or later. Hasn't even been 12 hours since I posted.