R+L=J v.25

[sagaz]

A lotof things!!

first:

*Sigh*

Rest assure, Targaryens are NOT immune to fire. George himself has said so. He's also said that what happened to Dany on Drogo's pyre was a one-time thing, and would probably not happen again. Your confusion may stem from the fact that the show really played up Dany being immune to fire; however, the show is not canon, and the producers can and have deviated from the source material in numerous places, even when the author advised against it.

Targaryens are not fireproof. Dany surviving the funeral pyre was a one-time thing and isn't going to be repeated. Martin has said so himself, and if you read ADWD, Dany burns her hands on a spear in the fighting pit. SHE IS NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE. Plenty of other Targaryens have also died because of fire and extreme heat. Dany knows hardly anything about her own family's history and as such, NO ONE should take anything she says on the subject seriously. Jon burning his hand doesn't disprove anything.

See everyone, I showed restraint.

I think,maybe, we could create a template? I admire your patience, guys.

That is a very interesting point. I guess the next question is does it matter if the old gods have consent or just Westerosi law? Is this the first instance where the Seven have married Starks instead of the old gods?

Other Starks marrying southrons could be possible, but I don't think another King in the North was "blessed" by the seven. In that context (the re-establishment of the KiN) the theory of Jon being "more a northerner" than Robb, even being Rhaegar's son fits very well.

Can someone explain to me what can actually come from Jon being Rhaegars I mean let's say he survives the attack without any magic help just plain ol shakes it off. What can possibly happen the other real Targ is still on the other side of the sea and even if people do find out who his parents are the only thing I can honestly see happening is people say "Well I guess Ned wasnt a cheater after all" I would love to see Jon leave the Watch but regardless of if R+L=J. Jon was raised buy NED Stark and that can never change I don't think he will leave the Watch because I don't think Ned would leave the Watch.

I Am The Watcher On The Wall.

It creates a lot of trouble,depending on what he decides to do. It ruins the plans of the people playing the game. A Targaryen, the son of the more respected... changes all the rules of the game. And that without counting the possible magical implications.

[Thendel]

I tend to agree that this is most likely, and everything else has been a red herring.

And Jon is the only one with the right bloodline, and pedigree.

But even beyond Robbs will, there was that one theory that one poster brought up in another thread that if Rhaegar married Lyanna in the Old gods, while Ned married Caitlyn in the Seven, Jon actually might be the true King of the North afterall, because he most likely would have the blessing and annointing of the Old gods, and considered actually the only legitimate Stark as he would have been concieved of such a marriage.

The irony of Ned marrying Caitlyn under the Seven and bringing a Septa there, is that it may have rendered his legitimate son not recognized by the Old gods to be King in the North.

How does Ned's and Catelyn's marriage ritual determine Robb's claim to kingship? Robb worshipped the Old Gods, as does Bran and Jon, which is only natural given that Robb is expected to be familiar with the culture of the people he would one day rule. No one ever doubted that Robb was a Northerner and a Stark by culture, and neither would Bran or Rickon face such problems concerning their right to rule (it is far more likely that Bran will be passed over because of his crippled legs and unlikeliness to ever be able to produce offspring).

[Alia of the knife]

That is a very interesting point. I guess the next question is does it matter if the old gods have consent or just Westerosi law? Is this the first instance where the Seven have married Starks instead of the old gods?

Sagaz beat me to it. :P

[Alia of the knife]

How does Ned's and Catelyn's marriage ritual determine Robb's claim to kingship? Robb worshipped the Old Gods, as does Bran and Jon, which is only natural given that Robb is expected to be familiar with the culture of the people he would one day rule. No one ever doubted that Robb was a Northerner and a Stark by culture, and neither would Bran or Rickon face such problems concerning their right to rule (it is far more likely that Bran will be passed over because of his crippled legs and unlikeliness to ever be able to produce offspring).

It's more Northern/Wilding specific in terms of how the "Divine Right of Kings" was applied in real history now that the Kingdom is broken and gone back to it's original borders and likely traditions.

Neds children with Cat are not illigitimate in terms of being born out of wedlock, but illigitimate metaphysically and in terms of spiritual "impurity."

With Jon though, he would satisfy both requirements, because I imagine if Rhaegar was going to all this trouble of to have Lyanna, he would have been thorough enough to marry her under both traditions, so even her family couldn't contest it as there is no guarentee they would have approved.

I wish I could find the original post about this, I think it was by a poster called TMZ

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I think this interpretation comes from Daenerys' vision from the House of the Undying - "There must be another". But didn't Pyat Pree, I think, say something about how not all the things she saw actually happened? I only read ACOK once and translated, but I vaguely remember something of the kind.

Not exactly, Pyat Pree told her that she may see, "days that never were." I just read that chapter last night. I interpreted it as her having the possibility of seeing things that didn't happen, but it may depend on the reader.

How does Ned's and Catelyn's marriage ritual determine Robb's claim to kingship? Robb worshipped the Old Gods, as does Bran and Jon, which is only natural given that Robb is expected to be familiar with the culture of the people he would one day rule. No one ever doubted that Robb was a Northerner and a Stark by culture, and neither would Bran or Rickon face such problems concerning their right to rule (it is far more likely that Bran will be passed over because of his crippled legs and unlikeliness to ever be able to produce offspring).

I think she was trying to imply that as far as the Old Gods are concerned, Robb may not be the true king in the North, especially if you believe in the magic surrounding The Wall, the Starks, and Winterfell. I feel it's a nice theory from a religious/magical standpoint. As far as the law in concerned Robb was a true king.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I can understand confusion about Targaryen fire immunity for those of us who have read the Dunk & Egg stories and especially those who came to the books due to the show where the writers fucked it up big time, but how can people forget that Viserys died of a fire-related event? That was smoldering gold thrown on his head! Is anyone (besides maybe Dany) claiming he wasn't a Targaryen?

I have actually seen people try to make that claim. "Omg Viserys is a bastard?!" Even if he's a bastard of one of their parents, he'd still be a Targ on at least one side. :shocked:

[PSHorton]

A lotof things!!

first:

I think,maybe, we could create a template? I admire your patience, guys.

Other Starks marrying southrons could be possible, but I don't think another King in the North was "blessed" by the seven. In that context (the re-establishment of the KiN) the theory of Jon being "more a northerner" than Robb, even being Rhaegar's son fits very well.

It creates a lot of trouble,depending on what he decides to do. It ruins the plans of the people playing the game. A Targaryen, the son of the more respected... changes all the rules of the game. And that without counting the possible magical implications.

Not to mention it probably sets John up as AAR or TPWWP (Or both, though they may not be one in the same)

[Ice Turtle]

Why were 3 KG members with Lyanna and only one with Aerys and Aegon? Aerys was king and Aegon was a heir, if Jon was born a girl even with Aegon and Aerys dead the king would be Viserys.

[corbon]

Why were 3 KG members with Lyanna and only one with Aerys and Aegon? Aerys was king and Aegon was a heir, if Jon was born a girl even with Aegon and Aerys dead the king would be Viserys.

Because Aerys and Aegon were safe in the Red Keep, never taken by seige or storm. with thousands of soldiers and goldcloaks defending them and the royalist army with Rhaegar and 3 KG between them and their enemies.

Lyanna and her baby were in a poxy little 'tower' that Ned was able to pull down with just Howland and maybe one or two other staff and with no troops. Their primary protection was isolation, and 3 KG to see off any random bandits etc and protect them if they had to travel.

[Dragonfish]

Why were 3 KG members with Lyanna and only one with Aerys and Aegon? Aerys was king and Aegon was a heir, if Jon was born a girl even with Aegon and Aerys dead the king would be Viserys.

In addition to what corbon said, I'd like to point out that there were 2-4 Kingsguard knights in King's Landing up until the Trident (the reason for the variation is that Ser Barristan and Ser Lewyn did leave at one point to rally more troops, but they eventually returned).

[Ramez012]

I'm still a bit sceptical about the whole R+L=J thing. How underwhelming would it be if his mother was just some simpleton?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm still a bit sceptical about the whole R+L=J thing. How underwhelming would it be if his mother was just some simpleton?

Why are you skeptical?

If his mother's a simpleton, why the hell is it such a big goddamn secret?

[Ramez012]

Why are you skeptical?

If his mother's a simpleton, why the hell is it such a big goddamn secret?

It just doesn't add up to me. I'd love for it to happen but having a Stark/Targ combination feels a bit unrealistic to me, mind you this is fantasy and George R.R. Martin so anything can happen.

That's why I'm saying it'd be so underwhelming and disappointing if it turns out she's just a nobody after all that mystery.

[Dragonfish]

It just doesn't add up to me. I'd love for it to happen but having a Stark/Targ combination feels a bit unrealistic to me, mind you this is fantasy and George R.R. Martin so anything can happen.

How does it not add up? What's unrealistic about it?

That's why I'm saying it'd be so underwhelming and disappointing if it turns out she's just a nobody after all that mystery.

Well, this would be a good reason to think the theory is true, yes?

[Dr. Pepper]

It just doesn't add up to me. I'd love for it to happen but having a Stark/Targ combination feels a bit unrealistic to me, mind you this is fantasy and George R.R. Martin so anything can happen.

That's why I'm saying it'd be so underwhelming and disappointing if it turns out she's just a nobody after all that mystery.

If it would be so underwhelming if Jon's mother turns out to be a no-name simpleton, and it would be disappointing to you if she turns out to be the very important Lyanna, then who would you think would make the best mother for enjoyable literary purposes? Keep in mind the timeline issues when arguing for a potential mother.

[Ygrain]

It just doesn't add up to me. I'd love for it to happen but having a Stark/Targ combination feels a bit unrealistic to me, mind you this is fantasy and George R.R. Martin so anything can happen.

That's why I'm saying it'd be so underwhelming and disappointing if it turns out she's just a nobody after all that mystery.

How is it unrealistic, when it has already been stated, and is accepted as truth by everyone, that a Targ kidnapped a Stark because he took a fancy to her? We have Rhaegar, who has already proved his fertility by fathering two children, spending months in an isolated location with a healthy young woman. Would it be such a strech to assume that they had sex a couple of times? And would it be such a stretch to assume that she conceived? Personally, I find this scenario way more realistic than no-one ever figuring out that Lyanna might have been pregnant. - This,of course, depends on what Ned stated officially as a cause of death.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I'm still a bit sceptical about the whole R+L=J thing. How underwhelming would it be if his mother was just some simpleton?

Dude, this is not the thread to post such an outrageous comment. :P

[Alia of the knife]

It just doesn't add up to me. I'd love for it to happen but having a Stark/Targ combination feels a bit unrealistic to me, mind you this is fantasy and George R.R. Martin so anything can happen.

That's why I'm saying it'd be so underwhelming and disappointing if it turns out she's just a nobody after all that mystery.

I suppose there could be an off chance that Jon is Neds son with another woman, however, you can bet that there was a child between Rhaegar and Lyanna, and that child could waltz in and up-end everything that we know.

But, I'm betting Jon is it.

Nonetheless, her manner of death sounds like childbirth to me, and this:

Barristan Selmy: " Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it." ADWD.

Not to be snarky, but once he took her, I don't think they hung out and discussed the upcoming Season of Jousters.

[Ramez012]

Jesus I think I opened the gates of Oblivion :P.

I'm not saying R+L didn't have a kid, far from it, I'm just saying I'm not sure that Jon is their boy.

I'm still betting on Hodor on being their kid (I joke calm down).

[Serie]

Jesus I think I opened the gates of Oblivion :P.

I'm not saying R+L didn't have a kid, far from it, I'm just saying I'm not sure that Jon is their boy.

I'm still betting on Hodor on being their kid (I joke calm down).

he's got his mother's looks and his father's ....uuuhhhhmmm.... temper :P

you see, the problem with Jon not being their child is... WHERE is their child? and why Ned does not reveal to Jon who his mother is? and why Daenerys dreams of the blue rose on the wall?

and so many little things that you take notice of only when you're a true believer :P :P