R+L=J v.25

[Maxpey]

what would be Ned's treason at ToJ then? Killing the kingsguard?... They were Aerys kingsguard.

Ned's treason at the TOJ was promising Lyanna that he would protect her and Rhaegar's child from Robert.

Sorry I didn't make this clear in my post.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ned's treason at the TOJ was promising Lyanna that he would protect her and Rhaegar's child from Robert.

Sorry I didn't make this clear in my post.

And ... where is this child?

[Maxpey]

And ... where is this child?

For proponents of R + L = J, at the Wall.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

For proponents of R + L = J, at the Wall.

Well yes. But for opponents of it, where would the child be? :P

[Baelor Blackfyre]

This may be random, but I'm curious to see what people will say

So if Jon turns out to be Azor Ahai, and we find this out in the next book, what does that mean for R+L=J? Would that be the silver bullet needed to prove this theory? Does that mean he has to be Rhaegar's son?

[The guy from the Vale]

Don't know about Azor Ahai, but the Ghost of High Heart, whose prophecies were very accurate in the past, said the Prince That Was Promised would be a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella. So yes, Jon being TPTWP would probably support the theory that Jon is Rhaegar's son (and, since he's clearly a Stark from his looks, consequently also Lyanna's son)

[Maxpey]

Well yes. But for opponents of it, where would the child be? :P

Ha! That is the rub, isn't it?

[Smooth]

Aside from GRRM coming out and saying Rhaegar is...NOT(Maury) the father. I have difficulty believing anything else. My main issue is still, did/does Ned have a bastard not named Jon, and if Ashara isn't dead, where is she and why did she disappear? I just know this is all going to come out that Doran Martell is going to be largely behind some sort of huge baby swap conspiracy. I always thought it odd that Dorne has such a hatred for the Baratheons and Lannisters, but the Starks kind of get a free pass.

[Ygrain]

I don't think Doran knows a thing, or else he wouldn't arrange the marriage of Arianne with Viserys.

I believe that Ned's reaction after the death of Elia and her children might have something to do with Dorne's attitude.

[Maxpey]

Aside from GRRM coming out and saying Rhaegar is...NOT(Maury) the father. I have difficulty believing anything else. My main issue is still, did/does Ned have a bastard not named Jon, and if Ashara isn't dead, where is she and why did she disappear? I just know this is all going to come out that Doran Martell is going to be largely behind some sort of huge baby swap conspiracy. I always thought it odd that Dorne has such a hatred for the Baratheons and Lannisters, but the Starks kind of get a free pass.

I would agree with you that all the circumstantial evidence from the text points to R + L = J.

I also wonder about Ashara Dayne's involvement in the narrative, especially whether:

1. She and Ned were in love and had a child;

2. She was the person who told Ned that Lyanna was in the TOJ; and

3. She is Septa Lemore.

I think Ashara Dayne and Howland Reed are probably the two characters that we know the least about but could have the most significant impact on several of the major plot lines.

[Ser Fatbottoms]

Ned's treason at the TOJ was promising Lyanna that he would protect her and Rhaegar's child from Robert.

Sorry I didn't make this clear in my post.

That still wouldn't be treason though because Aerys was the King when the child was born not Robert. Plus wasn't Ned at King's Landing when Aerys was killed helping Robert take the throne? I mean he was the one that saw Jamie on the Iron Throne correct?

[Ser Fatbottoms]

I would agree with you that all the circumstantial evidence from the text points to R + L = J.

I also wonder about Ashara Dayne's involvement in the narrative, especially whether:

1. She and Ned were in love and had a child;

2. She was the person who told Ned that Lyanna was in the TOJ; and

3. She is Septa Lemore.

I think Ashara Dayne and Howland Reed are probably the two characters that we know the least about but could have the most significant impact on several of the major plot lines.

I also hope that in the next book we get some POV from Howland and Ashara/Septa Lemore (I think thats a good theory). Howland really needs to get some info out to get the Jon/birth/parentage debate over!

[Sasha Steelsong]

That still wouldn't be treason though because Aerys was the King when the child was born not Robert. Plus wasn't Ned at King's Landing when Aerys was killed helping Robert take the throne? I mean he was the one that saw Jamie on the Iron Throne correct?

It doesn't matter who was king when the kid was born...keeping his birth secret, allowing him to live and grow up, IN NED HOUSE was the treason. Hiding the heir of the dispossessed royal house when the new King wanted all the children dead is treason. If R+L=J is true (and I do believe it is) Ned committed treason with every breath from the moment he found Jon to the moment he died.

As to Ned being at KL, yes he was there but he arrived after Aerys and the children had been killed. The Lannisters were the ones that sacked the city. He and Robert had a big fight over the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys. The only thing that mended them was their shared grief over Lyanna.

[Maxpey]

It doesn't matter who was king when the kid was born...keeping his birth secret, allowing him to live and grow up, IN NED HOUSE was the treason. Hiding the heir of the dispossessed royal house when the new King wanted all the children dead is treason. If R+L=J is true (and I do believe it is) Ned committed treason with every breath from the moment he found Jon to the moment he died.

That still wouldn't be treason though because Aerys was the King when the child was born not Robert. Plus wasn't Ned at King's Landing when Aerys was killed helping Robert take the throne? I mean he was the one that saw Jamie on the Iron Throne correct?

The child became the lawful heir as soon as Aegon was killed.

The incident at the TOJ occurred after Ned left KL in disgust because Robert condoned the Lannisters' murdering Elia and her children.

[Lady Octarina]

I don't think Doran knows a thing, or else he wouldn't arrange the marriage of Arianne with Viserys.

I believe that Ned's reaction after the death of Elia and her children might have something to do with Dorne's attitude.

Wouldn't he? I don't know, this might be my partiality for Dorne showing, but I refuse to believe Doran and Oberyn were such fools to put all their hopes of vengeance on a marriage agreement with Viserys who, it seems, everyone knows took after his father where madness is concerned. And his sending Quentyn to Daenerys, it just doesn't feel right; I always had a feeling there was something more to Doran's plans, something he's not telling Arianne, something Quentyn probably didn't know either. I mean, they spent 15 years or so plotting a revenge, and whereas I agree it only seems to be directed at Baratheon and Lannister, there should be at least a bit of hatred towards Ned for helping Robert get the throne anyway. At the same time, it just seems weird that they would put their plans behind an arrangement with the son of the man whose actions were also indirectly responsible for their deaths (since Aerys kept Elia and her children as hostages, and this seemed to have been known at the time), and who always seemed to take after his father. Which is why I'm convinced there's something we don't know about all this.

And I really don't think, with everything that had happened, that Eddard's indignation about what happened to Elia and the kids would be enough for them to forgive; not to mention that the Tower of Joy was in Dorne, very close to the reach, it seems, but still Dorne. I understand it was an isolated location and that communications are not that developed in Westeros (though much better than in our Middle Ages anyway), but after ruling Dorne for thousands of years, is it really possible the Martells would have no friends in that region that might have informed them about what had been going on? I doubt it. and I hope TWoW will make Doran's plans clearer.

[Alia of the knife]

Aside from GRRM coming out and saying Rhaegar is...NOT(Maury) the father. I have difficulty believing anything else. My main issue is still, did/does Ned have a bastard not named Jon, and if Ashara isn't dead, where is she and why did she disappear? I just know this is all going to come out that Doran Martell is going to be largely behind some sort of huge baby swap conspiracy. I always thought it odd that Dorne has such a hatred for the Baratheons and Lannisters, but the Starks kind of get a free pass.

I'm sorry if I've missed something, but has Martin confirmed that as a fact?

I was given to understand he doesn't answer questions regarding R+L=J.

As to whether the Dornish blame the Starks for anything, we first have to determine absolutely that Lyanna was not as much a victim in all this madness as Elia was.

If Lyanna was truly kidnapped against her will, then the Starks had every reason to be as outraged at her treatment as the Martels were over Elias treatment, and given Neds reaction and rift in their friendship, (Ned essentially went back to Winterfell, and while loyal and dutiful, no longer close), the Martels had to see the genuine outrage of Neds behavior.

The Starks did not put Lyanna forward as a replacement like Tywin was trying to do with Cersei to replace Elia, because it would appear the Starks didn't want any part of the Targaryens if they had their own plans.

[Teal'c]

I found this today while rereading Dance. They are both hiding a boy child to protect him from a Baratheon, and they dream of mothers crying blood.

AGOT p.501, Eddard. Ned dreams he is walking in the Winterfell crypts after being attacked by Jaime Lannister:

“Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

ADWD p. 117, Jon. Jon is thinking of how he has saved Mance’s son by sending him away with Sam and Gilly.

He found himself thinking about Sam and Maester Aemon, about Gilly and the babe. She will curse me with her dying breath, but I saw no other way…Last night he had dreamed…of Gilly weeping tears of blood.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

This may be random, but I'm curious to see what people will say

So if Jon turns out to be Azor Ahai, and we find this out in the next book, what does that mean for R+L=J? Would that be the silver bullet needed to prove this theory? Does that mean he has to be Rhaegar's son?

Yes, if you believe in the prophecy given by the Ghost of High Heart. IMO, AA (Azor Ahai), AAR (Azor Ahai Reborn), and TPTWP (The Prince That Was Promised) should all be considered the same entity; since AA is supposedly a person from the past, while AAR will be AA reincarnated, and TPTWP is suppose to be AAR. ;)

Don't know about Azor Ahai, but the Ghost of High Heart, whose prophecies were very accurate in the past, said the Prince That Was Promised would be a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella. So yes, Jon being TPTWP would probably support the theory that Jon is Rhaegar's son (and, since he's clearly a Stark from his looks, consequently also Lyanna's son)

:agree: ,but given my opinion this would also make him AAR.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Something crossed my mind after re-reading my last post,

If one believes Jon to be, The Prince That Was Promised, wouldn't that also be confirmation that Rhaegar married Lyanna, considering Jon wouldn't be a prince any other way?

[Lady Octarina]

Something crossed my mind after re-reading my last post,

If one believes Jon to be, The Prince That Was Promised, wouldn't that also be confirmation that Rhaegar married Lyanna, considering Jon wouldn't be a prince any other way?

Yes, I think that's correct, unless we consider him a prince after Robb legitimized him. I was going to say something stupid, that Jon was never a prince because when he was born (around the fall of KL) the king and other heirs were dead, so he was born king, but then I remembered "prince" can also be just an old-fashioned way to refer to a king, so never mind.