R+L=J v.25

[Ygrain]

If i am honest i don't think Jon is any part dragon or he is Lyanna's either. Everyone had this theory since day one, but isn't it a bit too obvious for GRRM to add in. Also it is cliche and It pretty much makes Dany's storyline redundant especially since Aegon has been revealed as alive. It seems silly to have Jon as Rhaegar's son as well. There are only two ways in which i think it could work: Only some characters find out and Jon accepts he will never find out and it is irrelevant because he is a man of the watch. Or, he found out and becomes a kind of new Night King but that won't happen because he has honor. I can actually however see him helping Aegon and Danaerys calm and unite the North and destroy the Lannisters.

For many people, it is not obvious in the least.

Besides, how does it make Dany's storyline redundant? For one, that storyline is not even finished; we have no idea what GRRM has in store, but I strongly suspect that it is not Queen Dany sitting on her throne and unanimously loved by her subjects, as she probably paints it - and since a lost heir claiming is birthright is a terrible cliché, as you have said yourself, I don't think that this is what GRRM plans, either. With Aegon being possibly fake, I think he actually stands the biggest chances to get the throne :D

[nothatso]

If i am honest i don't think Jon is any part dragon or he is Lyanna's either. Everyone had this theory since day one, but isn't it a bit too obvious for GRRM to add in. Also it is cliche and It pretty much makes Dany's storyline redundant especially since Aegon has been revealed as alive. It seems silly to have Jon as Rhaegar's son as well. There are only two ways in which i think it could work: Only some characters find out and Jon accepts he will never find out and it is irrelevant because he is a man of the watch. Or, he found out and becomes a kind of new Night King but that won't happen because he has honor. I can actually however see him helping Aegon and Danaerys calm and unite the North and destroy the Lannisters.

Here are some quotes from The Citadel that address several of your points:

“It’s obvious”: There is extensive anecdotal evidence—in the form of individuals new to the fandom expressing surprise when first introduced to the theory, because they themselves did not “connect the dots”—that this is not true. Moreover, some alternative theories—that Ned and Ashara or Ned and Wylla are Jon’s parents—are clearly far more “obvious”, since they are the ones explicitly put forward in the series. If obviousness is a factor that matters, then we can rule those combinations out.

“It’s cliche”: The response to this is that the basic idea is certainly cliche, but how it plays out is a complete mystery. If Martin turns it on his head by revealing that, yes, Jon is the “rightful heir” but that Jon is not going to become ruler (through death, politics, or choice), that adds another layer of complication and complexity to the story without playing out in a cliche manner. Jon could even end up ruling the Seven Kingdoms and it could be approached in a manner that rises above the underlying cliche. In the end, we simply do not know. What we do know is that the author often subverts fantasy tropes and cliches.

“It makes Daenerys unimportant”: The dragon has three heads, and has been something we’ve known since A Clash of Kings. Clearly, she is one of the heads of the dragon. If anything “intrudes” on this, it’s by design, and probably what it really means is that the story is going to be more complex than just, “Daenerys is the great heroine who matters above and beyond everyone else.”

[Alia of the knife]

I'm surprised and gratified more people haven't acted in frustrastion over Allens interview, given some posts in the past, (though not the current posters), seeming disgust for "cliche."

I'm okay if Martin is "borrowing" from other themes, because quite honestly, Lucas borrowed from other themes, (i.e., specifically Frank Herbert, as well as others).

Given our day and age, it really is difficult to come up with anything that hasn't been done, or said before.

(I think there is a theory that all our stories basically originated from something like seven sources/ancient stories)?

As I've said before, I'd rather a well done "cliche" than a badly done attempt at being "shocking and original."

I think it's safe to say there are many elements permeating this story from:

- Plantaganet Politics

- Modern science fiction/fantasy

1). Frank Herberts, "Dune."

2). Michael Moorcock, " Elric of Melbonae"(the first silver-haired Dragonlord), "Heavy Metal."

3). George Lucas, "Star Wars," who also borrowed from Herbert.

Romance:

- Shakespere, "Romeo and Juliet."

Legends:

- Werewolves, Vampires, and zombies(though not so much the vampire presence here)

But, there is also a reason why this stuff is timeless.

Mary Shellys "Frankenstein" was written around two hundred years ago, but we're still talking about it, as well as the "Romeo and Juliet" themes," because these things deal with real underlying Human concerns of Life, love, fear and mystery of death,as well as afterlife, so these themes are timeles, because the things that drive underlying Human nature doesn't change.

"Dune" vs. "Star Wars"

I don't think that Rhaegar is as much Aniken, (though he too suffered from "prophetic" visions who went to the dark side to save Padame' from death in childbirth to twins).

In this story, really the "Dune" analogy does seem to fit more, but I think Rhaegar is more the Paul Muadib character and Jon is Leto, (Leto also had a twin, Ghanima), as Leto was the fruition of the prophesy, just as Jon may be.

Ghanima also later married for alliance and peace, (Arya/Aegon)?

Rhaegar thought himself the PtWP (Quitsatz Haderach), but it really was Jon who had the necessary bloodline, who may warg a Dragon.

Paul Maudib may have been the Quitsatz Haderach, resuling from the necessary bloodline of Duke Leto Atreides and his Bene Gesserit Concubine who was also the daughter of his enemy, Baron Harkonen, but Leto, Paul and Chanis son, was the fruition and something beyond all they sought as Jon may be.

Paul lost Chani, (his bound concubine- but true wife), to childbirth, as Rhaegar lost Lyanna.

Rhaegar also has a potentially mad sister, Dany, as Paul had Alia who was overcome by possession by her evil Grandfather, the Baron Harkonnen as Dany may have shades of Aerys.

IF Jon takes the throne, he may have to become what he doesn't want to to put the Kingdom back together as Leto had to become something else to save the world.

And, while I do think Rhaegar is dead, in both Dune and Star Wars the Fathers were not.

Aniken became Dark Vader due to the loss of Padame, and Paul Muadib turned his back on the Kingdom, leaving it to Alia and Irulan, so he could undo what he actually created.

Just my analysis.

Anyway, if Martin has borrowed, or if anything in this is cliche,' I don't care just as long as he continues the more important tradition of being a good Story Teller.

[Ser Fatbottoms]

More Star Wars fun:

Jabba = Yezzen zo Qaggaz (rediculously fat, owns slaves, dies by slaves)

Han = Arya (travelling around, stealing and soon too be killing folks)

Boba Fett = Jaqen H'ghar (Can change face (armor for Boba) and hunts and kills folks)

Just some fun!!! :drunk:

[Buried Treasure]

@Buried Treasure: I agree about the accepted laws and customs. But actually, when a bannerman swears a vow of fealty, the liege swears an oath himself, as we see in the scene where Cat accepts Brienne's oath. And in his part of the oath, the liege swears to always judge his bannerman justly, and to never ask him to compromise his own honour. But by denying Rickard and Brandon a trial, Aerys broke that vow to the Starks. And by asking Jon Aryn to deliver Robert and Ned, whom he had sworn to protect, he also broke the vow to the Arryns. Basically, this gave Jon, Ned and Robert a free pass to rebel.

I'm going to respond in a dormant thread, as this thread is due to be replaced by a new version pretty soon and we are totally off-topic anyway. I've also backtracked slightly and cross-posted comments from SFDanny, Lady Tippy Wolfsbane and Serie.

[Yeade]

Star Wars in the R+L=J thread? Huzzah! ^_^

Other comparisons between Jon Snow and Luke Skywalker:

Luke's in love with Leia, his twin sister, from the moment he sees her message to Obi-wan Kenobi ("Help me. You're my only hope.") in ANH until sometime in ESB or the months-long interval from that film to ROTJ. I happen to think Jon may learn of R+L=J before he meets Dany, even if he doesn't accept the truth of his parentage, but a romance of sorts could still develop between them.

Finding out (in the most traumatic way imaginable thanks to Dad) that the Anakin Skywalker he idolizes as a child turns to the dark side and becomes the most feared monster in the galaxy has a profound impact on Luke's view of his own resistance to similar corruption. Luke's a much more somber character in ROTJ than ANH, and the change cannot be explained solely as an effect of his military experience, which is clear in ESB. At the same time, when Darth Vader redeems himself by saving his son's life and killing Palpatine, Luke's unreasonable faith in his father is proven true.

So far as Jon is concerned, I wonder whether knowing he has Targaryen blood would make him doubt his own sanity as Dany fears becoming the Mad King's daughter in ADWD. Epic heroism is not the most healthy of occupations, after all, physically or psychologically. There's too much risk of losing yourself in process, with so much blood on your hands. (Jon can't hope to match Luke's body count of more than a million Imperials when he kills the first Death Star, though.) Ned, Jon's father figure, is the one who lies to him, but finally learning the reasons behind Ned's actions, Ned's silence on the subject of his mother, may bring Jon a measure of peace.

Yoda and Obi-wan not only expect Luke to kill his father but to assume the mantle of the Jedi Order that Vader is responsible for destroying at the bidding of the Emperor. While Rhaegar's already dead, there's a decent chance Jon will end up on the Iron Throne, IMO, with the duty of stabilizing the realm that arguably begins to collapse after Rhaegar running off with Lyanna precipitates the downfall of House Targaryen and, perhaps more importantly, the decline of the crown's authority over the nobility. And this likely after fulfilling, in one fashion or another, the AAR/PTWP prophecy (the Chosen One) that Rhaegar pursues his entire life. In both cases, the sins of the father are left for the son to redress.

...that's all I got. Man, I love Star Wars. :blush:

edit: BBCode formatting

[LawHawk]

Wow, version 25 of the thread and it's on 19 pages. What an awesome online community.

Is there, somewhere, a COMPLETE listing of all of the evidence supporting R+L=J? Something like Maester Luwin's list of all of the evidence through ASoS, but updated with the stuff in ADWD? I haven't found anything really comprehensive, just a few lists of bullet points.

I would love it if I could read one page (or a few pages) and be "all caught up" on R+L=J. Because I know I'm not reading through all 500 pages of this thread and its predecessors!

[Sasha Steelsong]

Wow, version 25 of the thread and it's on 19 pages. What an awesome online community.

Is there, somewhere, a COMPLETE listing of all of the evidence supporting R+L=J? Something like Maester Luwin's list of all of the evidence through ASoS, but updated with the stuff in ADWD? I haven't found anything really comprehensive, just a few lists of bullet points.

I would love it if I could read one page (or a few pages) and be "all caught up" on R+L=J. Because I know I'm not reading through all 500 pages of this thread and its predecessors!

Here is a good essay that covers the major points: http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

It has the R+L=J theory and the other major contenders. Just be sure to set your view settings (you'll see when you open the page) to ADWD or the page will protect you from spoilers you haven't read.

[corbon]

Speaking of Ned's lies, why did Ned lie to Robert when he led him to believe that Wylla was Jon's mother, but not Catelyn and Jon? Instead of telling them that Wylla was Jon's mother, he refused to say anything.

I am curious about people's theories why Ned wasn't consistent in how he dealt with telling people about Jon's mother.

Has this been discussed before in another thread?

We don't know exactly what he told anyone, so we can;t really discuss any supposed 'inconsistencies'. We certainly do not see him telling Robert who Jon's mother is. He carefully answers Robert's question, which is 'who was that woman' (and "you know the one I mean, your bastard's mother"). Robert wants the name of a woman from Ned's past he is thinking of but can't remember her name. Robert says it was Jon's mother, not Ned.

Ned may have previously told him she was Jon's mother (I doubt it myself), or Robert may have jumped to conclusions previously and Ned just let him believe it because it was convenient and he didn't have to lie, technically.

The same elsewhere. We don't know he ever actually claimed Jon was his bastard directly, for sure, or Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother or anything. Personally I doubt he ever claimed either directly (though certainly its possible).

I suspect he simply turned up with Jon Snow and when/if questioned by anybody simply said "he is my blood, treat him as my son" or something similar. Pretty much everybody leaps to their own conclusions from this, most people undoubtedly led and reinforced by the conclusions others have leaped to and spread.

Robert believes the mother was Wylla. Probably because he saw bringing along the mother as a wetnurse a typically Ned thing to do, and unlike almost anyone else (including Catelyn) knew Ned well enough to 'know' that the mother wouldn't be some highborn woman. Ned's honour might have slipped once, but not that far.

Everyone else (Catelyn, Winterfell people, Cersei, the younger Daynes who were not around at the time), doesn't know Ned quite so well (remember, he's been fostered with Jon Arryn for years, so deeply known in Winterfell), so when they hear he came from Starfall with Jon, and Ashara committed suicide, they conclude it was Ashara.

The people of the Three Sisters have their own story too.

Note too, that with Catelyn, he shut down the questioning, not just about Ashara, but about Jon. That was when he scared her. The Ashara part was almost an afterthought, basically just his way of finding the source of the rumour to cut it off. I don't believe he was particularly worried about Ashara's name, but he wanted to kill any discussion of Jon's origins completely (and without being too obvious about Jon being the primary concern, too).

So to summarize, we can;t discuss Ned's inconsistent stories, because we don't know what any of his stories were actually, let alone if they were inconsistent.

[Maxpey]

We don't know exactly what he told anyone, so we can;t really discuss any supposed 'inconsistencies'. We certainly do not see him telling Robert who Jon's mother is. He carefully answers Robert's question, which is 'who was that woman' (and "you know the one I mean, your bastard's mother"). Robert wants the name of a woman from Ned's past he is thinking of but can't remember her name. Robert says it was Jon's mother, not Ned.

Ned may have previously told him she was Jon's mother (I doubt it myself), or Robert may have jumped to conclusions previously and Ned just let him believe it because it was convenient and he didn't have to lie, technically.

The same elsewhere. We don't know he ever actually claimed Jon was his bastard directly, for sure, or Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother or anything. Personally I doubt he ever claimed either directly (though certainly its possible).

I suspect he simply turned up with Jon Snow and when/if questioned by anybody simply said "he is my blood, treat him as my son" or something similar. Pretty much everybody leaps to their own conclusions from this, most people undoubtedly led and reinforced by the conclusions others have leaped to and spread.

Robert believes the mother was Wylla. Probably because he saw bringing along the mother as a wetnurse a typically Ned thing to do, and unlike almost anyone else (including Catelyn) knew Ned well enough to 'know' that the mother wouldn't be some highborn woman. Ned's honour might have slipped once, but not that far.

Everyone else (Catelyn, Winterfell people, Cersei, the younger Daynes who were not around at the time), doesn't know Ned quite so well (remember, he's been fostered with Jon Arryn for years, so deeply known in Winterfell), so when they hear he came from Starfall with Jon, and Ashara committed suicide, they conclude it was Ashara.

The people of the Three Sisters have their own story too.

Note too, that with Catelyn, he shut down the questioning, not just about Ashara, but about Jon. That was when he scared her. The Ashara part was almost an afterthought, basically just his way of finding the source of the rumour to cut it off. I don't believe he was particularly worried about Ashara's name, but he wanted to kill any discussion of Jon's origins completely (and without being too obvious about Jon being the primary concern, too).

So to summarize, we can;t discuss Ned's inconsistent stories, because we don't know what any of his stories were actually, let alone if they were inconsistent.

Thanks for the reply.

You bring up some excellent points.

I am not a fan of R + L = J, but at this point I am trying to accept that it's true. Being able to work out issues I have with the theory has been a great help in overcoming my resistance.

That having been said, although Ned never refers to Jon as his son in GoT, Catelyn on page 65 Catelyn recalls "Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him 'son' for all the North to see." So we do have instances where Ned tells other people that Jon is his son.

[Greywater Reed]

This is the rarest of spoilers, insofar as it seems to apply both to the TV show and the as yet unpublished books. Theon Greyjoy actor Alfie Allen reveals he asked George R.R. Martin the answer to one of the saga's biggest unsolved mysteries, and his answer certainly drops some potentially massive clues:

You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though.

Source: http://www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-theon-alfie-allen-interview.html

http://io9.com/morning-spoilers/

[kha_alim]

This is a good a place as any for me to write why i don't think jon is a Targ.

The theory is good, it could be true, George does what he wants, so he can tell us later on that Jon is actually a Targ, but it's unlikely, cuz there is just this one small thing.

The huge book of all the great houses and their description. Remember the Ned reading the book, black of hair, black of hair, black of hair, golden hair...hoppa someone's not a Baratheon! The same way every Targaryen has silver hair and purple eyes. Aegon had to die his hair blue to hide the color of his eyes. Had he dyed his hair black or blond, people would have recodnized him as a Targ. Also we know that the Targ's have a strong bloodline. They married between eachother to keep the bloodline pure. In Dance we see Danny care for the sick, and she asks ser grandfather if he's ever seen or heard of a Targ getting sick...ever, to witch he replies that never. So if Jon were really Rhaegars son he would have silver hair and purple eyes.

Thus R + L =/= J.

Edit: I would like to add this little piece as another evidence: "Then Dany sees her son, tall and proud with Drogo's skin and her hair, and violet eyes shaped like almonds."

[Greywater Reed]

This is a good a place as any for me to write why i don't think jon is a Targ.

The theory is good, it could be true, George does what he wants, so he can tell us later on that Jon is actually a Targ, but it's unlikely, cuz there is just this one small thing.

The huge book of all the great houses and their description. Remember the Ned reading the book, black of hair, black of hair, black of hair, golden hair...hoppa someone's not a Baratheon! The same way every Targaryen has silver hair and purple eyes. Aegon had to die his hair blue to hide the color of his eyes. Had he dyed his hair black or blond, people would have recodnized him as a Targ. Also we know that the Targ's have a strong bloodline. They married between eachother to keep the bloodline pure. In Dance we see Danny care for the sick, and she asks ser grandfather if he's ever seen or heard of a Targ getting sick...ever, to witch he replies that never. So if Jon were really Rhaegars son he would have silver hair and purple eyes.

Thus R + L =/= J.

BUT the Targeryans married each other mostly, right? The Starks have no Targeryan blood in them whatsoever, so there would definitely be mixing.

This is a little like saying (forgive my crushing lack of subtlety) "All of this family were white, then one of them took off/allegedly impregnated a woman of a different race, the baby isn't exactly like the father, so it can't be his."

The Lannisters and Baratheons are far more alike than Stark and Targeryan would ever be, The Starks are blood of the First Men after all.

[lojzelote]

This is a good a place as any for me to write why i don't think jon is a Targ.

The theory is good, it could be true, George does what he wants, so he can tell us later on that Jon is actually a Targ, but it's unlikely, cuz there is just this one small thing.

The huge book of all the great houses and their description. Remember the Ned reading the book, black of hair, black of hair, black of hair, golden hair...hoppa someone's not a Baratheon! The same way every Targaryen has silver hair and purple eyes. Aegon had to die his hair blue to hide the color of his eyes. Had he dyed his hair black or blond, people would have recodnized him as a Targ. Also we know that the Targ's have a strong bloodline. They married between eachother to keep the bloodline pure. In Dance we see Danny care for the sick, and she asks ser grandfather if he's ever seen or heard of a Targ getting sick...ever, to witch he replies that never. So if Jon were really Rhaegars son he would have silver hair and purple eyes.

Thus R + L =/= J.

Try to read several pages of this thread, you will find explanation why your arguments are all wrong. ;)

It's getting old repeating it again and again.

[kha_alim]

BUT the Targeryans married each other mostly, right? The Starks have no Targeryan blood in them whatsoever, so there would definitely be mixing.

This is a little like saying (forgive my crushing lack of subtlety) "All of this family were white, then one of them took off/allegedly impregnated a woman of a different race, the baby isn't exactly like the father, so it can't be his."

The Lannisters and Baratheons are far more alike than Stark and Targeryan would ever be, The Starks are blood of the First Men after all.

"Then Dany sees her son, tall and proud with Drogo's skin and her hair, and violet eyes shaped like almonds." - http://www.westeros....ies/Entry/1798/

It's part of a vision/prophecie, but so far Danny's vision were quite accurate.

Try to read several pages of this thread, you will find explanation why your arguments are all wrong. ;)

It's getting old repeating it again and again.

can u tell me the page numbers :P.

[The guy from the Vale]

Yes, I figure it's time for yet another public service announcement...

As for the original question: we know of several Targaryens (or people with Targaryen ancestors) who do not have silver hair: Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys had her mother's dark hair; as was the case for Bittersteel and Baelor Breakspear. Then there are the black-haired Baratheons who descend from a Targaryen bastard, and the current Baratheons are the grandchildren of a Targaryen; the Martells, who intermarried with the Targaryens and have dark hair; and lastly the Plumms; Brown Ben certainly doesn't have silver hair, but rather brown hair.

So, we have heaps of examples of people having Targaryen parents or granddparents and still having black or brown hair.

[corbon]

That having been said, although Ned never refers to Jon as his son in GoT, Catelyn on page 65 Catelyn recalls "Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him 'son' for all the North to see." So we do have instances where Ned tells other people that Jon is his son.

Even then, we don't see it. Catelyn isn't necessarily quoting him word for word. She could be paraphrasing or being metaphorical. Ned's treatment of Jon, bringing him to winterfell and raising him as part of the family, does say "he is my son" for all the world to see.

But really I guess, thats beside the point. I'm not arguing that Ned could not have said it outright, just that we don;t know for sure he did, or what different things he actually said to different people (if anything).

[lojzelote]

"Then Dany sees her son, tall and proud with Drogo's skin and her hair, and violet eyes shaped like almonds." - http://www.westeros....ies/Entry/1798/ It's part of a vision/prophecie, but so far Danny's vision were quite accurate. can u tell me the page numbers :P.

If you are truly interested, you'll find it yourself.

Just because I'm generally a nice person ;)

An example of non-Targaryen looking Targaryen:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Baelor_Breakspear

There's more such cases.

Why Dany is dead wrong about the Targaryens being immune to illnesses:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Great_Spring_Sickness

Also, Dany asked if Barristan ever heard of a dragon (an actual scaly beast, not a human being) dying of pox, which he doesn't answer if I remember the scene correctly.

[Maxpey]

This is a good a place as any for me to write why i don't think jon is a Targ.

The theory is good, it could be true, George does what he wants, so he can tell us later on that Jon is actually a Targ, but it's unlikely, cuz there is just this one small thing.

The huge book of all the great houses and their description. Remember the Ned reading the book, black of hair, black of hair, black of hair, golden hair...hoppa someone's not a Baratheon! The same way every Targaryen has silver hair and purple eyes. Aegon had to die his hair blue to hide the color of his eyes. Had he dyed his hair black or blond, people would have recodnized him as a Targ. Also we know that the Targ's have a strong bloodline. They married between eachother to keep the bloodline pure. In Dance we see Danny care for the sick, and she asks ser grandfather if he's ever seen or heard of a Targ getting sick...ever, to witch he replies that never. So if Jon were really Rhaegars son he would have silver hair and purple eyes.

Thus R + L =/= J.

Edit: I would like to add this little piece as another evidence: "Then Dany sees her son, tall and proud with Drogo's skin and her hair, and violet eyes shaped like almonds."

Rhaenys, Rhaegar's daughter with Elia, did not have Targaryen features but instead was dark haired like her mother. Thus, the fact that Jon looks like a Stark does not preclude Rhaegar being his father.

It appears that GRRM wanted us to use the fact that all of Robert's children had black hair as a genetics litmus test for all the rest of Westeros. However, by telling us that Rhaenys looked like her mother, GRRM is also indicating that Robert's situation appears to be an exception to the general rule that you cannot identify the father of a child solely because of the child's hair color, eye color, etc.

In other words, GRRM used the "black of hair" story line as just another plot device to throw us off the idea that Rhaegar was Jon Snow's father.

[Maxpey]

Even then, we don't see it. Catelyn isn't necessarily quoting him word for word. She could be paraphrasing or being metaphorical. Ned's treatment of Jon, bringing him to winterfell and raising him as part of the family, does say "he is my son" for all the world to see.

But really I guess, thats beside the point. I'm not arguing that Ned could not have said it outright, just that we don;t know for sure he did, or what different things he actually said to different people (if anything).

You are absolutely correct.

That is one of things about GRRM's writing style that is both brilliant and frustrating. So much of what he has the characters contemplating and/or speaking is ambiguous.