R+L=J v.25

[Eichenlaub]

I've never doubted r+l=j, but I doubt Dany and Jon would ever get together, he ain't her type, also there would be no political advantage, so I'd find it to be quite unbelievable. Theon or bronn are more her type.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

If you are truly interested, you'll find it yourself.

Just because I'm generally a nice person ;)

An example of non-Targaryen looking Targaryen:

http://awoiaf.wester...elor_Breakspear

There's more such cases.

Why Dany is dead wrong about the Targaryens being immune to illnesses:

http://awoiaf.wester...Spring_Sickness

Also, Dany asked if Barristan ever heard of a dragon (an actual scaly beast, not a human being) dying of pox, which he doesn't answer if I remember the scene correctly.

This is true. Baelor Breakspear looks like his mother, who was a Martell, and I believe his son did as well.

And yes, a ton of Targ's were wiped out during the Spring Sickness, which is one factor leading to Egg becoming King. Another is that his brothers were crazy from STD's and alcoholism, both sicknesses.

[Teal'c]

BUT the Targeryans married each other mostly, right? The Starks have no Targeryan blood in them whatsoever, so there would definitely be mixing.

This is a little like saying (forgive my crushing lack of subtlety) "All of this family were white, then one of them took off/allegedly impregnated a woman of a different race, the baby isn't exactly like the father, so it can't be his."

The Lannisters and Baratheons are far more alike than Stark and Targeryan would ever be, The Starks are blood of the First Men after all.

Try to read several pages of this thread, you will find explanation why your arguments are all wrong. ;)

It's getting old repeating it again and again.

Yes, I figure it's time for yet another public service announcement...

As for the original question: we know of several Targaryens (or people with Targaryen ancestors) who do not have silver hair: Rhaegar's daughter Rhaenys had her mother's dark hair; as was the case for Bittersteel and Baelor Breakspear. Then there are the black-haired Baratheons who descend from a Targaryen bastard, and the current Baratheons are the grandchildren of a Targaryen; the Martells, who intermarried with the Targaryens and have dark hair; and lastly the Plumms; Brown Ben certainly doesn't have silver hair, but rather brown hair.

So, we have heaps of examples of people having Targaryen parents or granddparents and still having black or brown hair.

If you are truly interested, you'll find it yourself.

Just because I'm generally a nice person ;)

An example of non-Targaryen looking Targaryen:

http://awoiaf.wester...elor_Breakspear

There's more such cases.

Why Dany is dead wrong about the Targaryens being immune to illnesses:

http://awoiaf.wester...Spring_Sickness

Also, Dany asked if Barristan ever heard of a dragon (an actual scaly beast, not a human being) dying of pox, which he doesn't answer if I remember the scene correctly.

Rhaenys, Rhaegar's daughter with Elia, did not have Targaryen features but instead was dark haired like her mother. Thus, the fact that Jon looks like a Stark does not preclude Rhaegar being his father.

It appears that GRRM wanted us to use the fact that all of Robert's children had black hair as a genetics litmus test for all the rest of Westeros. However, by telling us that Rhaenys looked like her mother, GRRM is also indicating that Robert's situation appears to be an exception to the general rule that you cannot identify the father of a child solely because of the child's hair color, eye color, etc.

In other words, GRRM used the "black of hair" story line as just another plot device to throw us off the idea that Rhaegar was Jon Snow's father.

This is true. Baelor Breakspear looks like his mother, who was a Martell, and I believe his son did as well.

And yes, a ton of Targ's were wiped out during the Spring Sickness, which is one factor leading to Egg becoming King. Another is that his brothers were crazy from STD's and alcoholism, both sicknesses.

:cheers:

[Ser Fatbottoms]

This is a good a place as any for me to write why i don't think jon is a Targ.

The theory is good, it could be true, George does what he wants, so he can tell us later on that Jon is actually a Targ, but it's unlikely, cuz there is just this one small thing.

The huge book of all the great houses and their description. Remember the Ned reading the book, black of hair, black of hair, black of hair, golden hair...hoppa someone's not a Baratheon! The same way every Targaryen has silver hair and purple eyes. Aegon had to die his hair blue to hide the color of his eyes. Had he dyed his hair black or blond, people would have recodnized him as a Targ. Also we know that the Targ's have a strong bloodline. They married between eachother to keep the bloodline pure. In Dance we see Danny care for the sick, and she asks ser grandfather if he's ever seen or heard of a Targ getting sick...ever, to witch he replies that never. So if Jon were really Rhaegars son he would have silver hair and purple eyes.

Thus R + L =/= J.

Edit: I would like to add this little piece as another evidence: "Then Dany sees her son, tall and proud with Drogo's skin and her hair, and violet eyes shaped like almonds."

Also, and I know this has also been said in these threds:

From GoT page 15: " Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see."

Many of the Targs have been said to have eyes so dark purple that they look black.

[axels15]

From the io9.com website:

Game of Thrones

This is the rarest of spoilers, insofar as it seems to apply both to the TV show and the as yet unpublished books. Theon Greyjoy actor Alfie Allen reveals he asked George R.R. Martin the answer to one of the saga's biggest unsolved mysteries, and his answer certainly drops some potentially massive clues:

You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though.

Let's assume Allen knows what he's talking about when making the Star Wars analogy. For this to be a Luke Skywalker situation, you'd kind of have to think that Jon Snow's father — the one parent he thought he was sure of — isn't who he thought he was. Also, his father is a monster on the scale of Darth Vader. At the risk of adding 2 and 2 together to make 1,000, his sudden segue into discussion of the Targaryen line might be relevant here. (I'm not going to say any more, since my Morning Spoilers remit doesn't necessarily cover spoiling the books as well, so I'm going to keep this relatively vague.) But, of course, this is all massive speculation, so I'd advise drawing your own conclusions. [Vulture]

[Ygrain]

Concerning Rhaego's looks, unless GRRM himself confirms that this is what he would have looked like if he lived, it cannot really be taken as an evidence of anything, since it is a feverish dream, and even if it is not just a hallucination but a vision, it still need not confirm Rhaego's real looks.

[episodenone]

Can someone please list for me or tell me where there is a list of all the chap's the TOJ references are from. I'd like to go pinpoint them out and pour over them to try and collect my thoughts

Thanks

[sagaz]

Can someone please list for me or tell me where there is a list of all the chap's the TOJ references are from. I'd like to go pinpoint them out and pour over them to try and collect my thoughts

Thanks

Eddard X aGoT, for sure... I think there's more in the last Eddard chapter (check the others too)

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Wow, version 25 of the thread and it's on 19 pages. What an awesome online community.

:agree:

Thanks for the reply.

You bring up some excellent points.

I am not a fan of R + L = J, but at this point I am trying to accept that it's true. Being able to work out issues I have with the theory has been a great help in overcoming my resistance.

That having been said, although Ned never refers to Jon as his son in GoT, Catelyn on page 65 Catelyn recalls "Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him 'son' for all the North to see." So we do have instances where Ned tells other people that Jon is his son.

I have always felt that this was in reference to how he treated Jon, not what he called him. By bringing Jon home and raising him as a son Ned, "called him son for all the North to see."

[FrozenFire3]

I don't know if this Alfie Allen interview was ever posted here and I'm sorry if it was: http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/69472403.html#ixzz1wqWuq3zS

Alfie was asked:

Did having a big sister ever help you with the sibling scenes? Minus the incest, of course.

[Laughs.] I guess, because we nitpick at each other, but it's not cool, completely not cool what Theon does to his sister. It's horrible. It shows you what kind of person Theon is, so there's a reason why it's in there. But you know,

they didn't know I had a big sister when they cast me for this. They had no clue. They didn't know who I was. Although George R.R. Martin, when I spoke to him, he asked me about my sister. He became a fan of hers during the auditions.

What did you ask him about in return?

You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation.

It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though.

To me, it's pretty clear here. The "Skywalker situation"... xD

[episodenone]

Eddard X aGoT, for sure... I think there's more in the last Eddard chapter (check the others too)

Much appreciated -- but there must be may many more.

Anyone?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What did you ask him about in return?

You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation.

It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though.

To me, it's pretty clear here. The "Skywalker situation"... xD

Yes. Guy-who-you-thought-was-a-villain ends up being your dad. The only thing Jon knows about Rhaegar is that he "kidnapped" his "aunt," who ended up dead.

[FrozenFire3]

Yes. Guy-who-you-thought-was-a-villain ends up being your dad. The only thing Jon knows about Rhaegar is that he "kidnapped" his "aunt," who ended up dead.

Exactly x)

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I don't think we can know for certain that any Starks before the current generation were wargs. Any rumours that came down from the age of heroes are as much myth as history and the stone wolves may be in the crypts may be just because it is the sigil of the house - chosen for the mundane reason that the direwolf is a fearsome beast. The current Starks may not have inherited their ability from a distant ancestor but been given it by the old gods - as they were given their wolves.

300 years ago Torrhen may have been a man who no more believed in magic than most of the characters did at the beginning of the story. He must have heard of the dragons on Dragonstone but that was far from his kingdom and he probably never gave them a second thought until he heard of the invasion. Then, after hearing of Harrenhal and the Field of Flame he may have thought of his own vast and flammable forests (I've always presumed Aegon invaded at the start of Summer) and knelt. The Targaryen lack of interest in the North is partially explained by the distance. But also, the Targaryens unified Westeros by adopting Andal culture and the North did not fit with that narrative. If the Targaryens had focused more attention of the kingdoms attention on the North (and similarly the Iron born) it might have made compromises with the groups like the Faith more difficult.

It is repeatedly said, but whenever it is shown then the magic in question always has some fire aspect. The glass candles work, but they are dragonglass, the pyromancers spells are more effective, and I think the Valyrian spells used by the armourer who reforged Ice as well. OTOH the Starks formed their bonds with the wolves before magic returned and the wildlings never lost the skill of skinchanging in the first place. Hopefully we will learn more with the next Dunk & Egg story but at the moment I don't think there is any reason to think the Starks hadn't forgotten all magic hundreds of years before Aegon arrived.

You're right, we can't know for certain, but we can theorize. :D

We know that some of these rumors can be taken as fact to some degree. The magic being used to build the Wall, and Storm's End for example. I also don't believe that every Stark warg had/needed a direwolf since they can obviously warg other animals as well. There is definitely something 'freaky' going on with the past generations of Starks, especially in the time leading up to Torrhen bending the knee, IMO. :)

You make valid points, but I think there is more to the Targaryens leaving the North alone, especially after the civil war among the Targs.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

I dunno. Rhaegar wasn't that bad. Now, Aerys? That is a Star Wars situation. It wasn't Rhaegar raping Lyanna, it was Aerys.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I dunno. Rhaegar wasn't that bad. Now, Aerys? That is a Star Wars situation. It wasn't Rhaegar raping Lyanna, it was Aerys.

Well from the Stark POV it might be six one way, half dozen the other. Aerys killed Rickon and Brandon, Rhaegar kidnapped/raped Lyanna and she died in captivity. If you grew up in the Stark household you could easily see both as bad guys. The difference I think will be that Vader did all the awful things people thought him guilty of doing (whether there was still good in him as Luke thought, doesn't change that Anakin still slaughtered the young ones at the Jedi Temple) where as Rhaegar's evil deeds have the possibility of being the misconception that was allowed to continue because it protected Lyanna's honor.

[Ygrain]

I dunno. Rhaegar wasn't that bad. Now, Aerys? That is a Star Wars situation. It wasn't Rhaegar raping Lyanna, it was Aerys.

Aerys never got near Lyanna at the time when Jon was conceived. And, as it is known, Jon knows nothing, so, for him, Rhaegar could well be evil impersonated.

[Dragonfish]

I think this might be a case of Alfie Allen simply assuming that what Robert said about Rhaegar was true. I doubt he really read the books all that closely (if he read the books at all), so it may not have occurred to him that Rhaegar could have been a generally decent person.

[Faint]

The Alfie Allen interview quote has been re-posted at least three times now since I first posted it several days ago. I think people have read it now; no need to keep posting it over and over again.

The point is, he brings up the Targaryen succession out of nowhere (and we know that Jon looks like a Stark). Hence, the clear assumption to make is that his father is a Targaryen and that his mother is a Stark.

And it's Darth Vadar like circumstance because Ned never bothered to tell Jon that all the tales about his father being spread about by Robert Baratheon were utter bullshit, so Jon probably thinks of Rhaegar Targaryen as some kind of monster who raped his aunt.

[Budj]

Good point about not really reading the books...as far as the tv show is concerned (the story Alfie probably follows more closely) the watcher only knows that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, who was supposed to marry Robert, and rapes her. Robert also tells the battle and the death blow to Rhaegar like an epic / heroic event....so you are given the impression that Rhaegar was a bad guy to be slain as part of the "Empire" aka Targaryen dynasty and those loyal.