From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[brashcandy]

I do want to point out that the Kingsguard lost his life as a result of that sex. So GRRM is also showing that betraying ones vows like that also has a price.

I wasn't aware that Arianne's vagina was that powerful.

[Queen Cersei I]

I wasn't aware that Arianne's vagina was that powerful.

Arrianne vagina is a potent mantrap; a regular swirling vortex of doom. In Dorn, it is known simply as "the sand snake Sucker." Such is her power.

And yet Arrianne the Wicked's va gay gay pales in comparison to that engulfing genital of doom. Yes, I speak of the one, the only-- Cersei's vagina. A.K.A., the Great Other.

After three books of waiting, Cersei's vagina emerged in book 4 as the series primary antagonist. The powers of Cersei's brain and heart are nothing compared to the unthinkable power of her private lady parts! As Tyrion noted, fat Illario should "ask my sister to open her legs for you. The best part of me for the best part of her." Clearly, the not at all disgusting, misongynistic, or inappropriate Tyrion is corrupted by the mere thought of his sister's vagina'. THAT'S how powerful it is, y'all.

Just think about it:

--It apparently made Jaime commit numerous acts of murder and torture, leading directly to killing little boys.

--It lead to an entire loss of personality and character in Lancel, and ruined his life!

-- It led the Kettleblack bro's to lose at roughly 60 IQ points each, for how else can we account for such men managing to make it through childhood without accidentally eating wildfire or sitting on a sword and impaling themselves?

--Jaime's rejection of it was dirrectly responsible for his redemption arc. Which entailed leaving Cersei (and her wicked vagina) to die, die die.

Clearly, Cersei's genitals are the great other. It is known. :o

[brashcandy]

After three books of waiting, Cersei's vagina emerged in book 4 as the series primary antagonist.

Oh god, QC, you have me laughing so much. This is so true :bowdown:

[1234567]

Playing devil's advocate here - Ser Arys didn't lose his life as a result of breaking his oath of celibacy and having sex with a hot Dornish princess. He lost his life because he gave his charge, Princess Myrcella, into the custody of said hot Dornish princess; and the princess' father, the ruler of Dorne and the man who was Myrcella's de facto guardian at the time, sent troops after them to stop Arianne's rebellion.

One thing I always found interesting about Arys was that the treatment of Sansa featured in his reasoning for why he went along with Arienne's plan. It was as if by being ordered to hit Sansa and doing it, he had already soiled himself as a knight. The abuse that he was complicit in shamed him.

--Jaime's rejection of it was dirrectly responsible for his redemption arc. Which entailed leaving Cersei (and her wicked vagina) to die, die die.

We now know (due to Season 2) that Jaime was dyslexic. So clearly he mis-read the note.

Clearly, Cersei's genitals are the great other. It is known. :o

But will they get their own redemption arc?

[Sid2]

It's too bad you guys ran out of Sansa chapters to analyze and discuss. That was good reading.

[brashcandy]

It's too bad you guys ran out of Sansa chapters to analyze and discuss. That was good reading.

Thanks Sid2! But there's still stuff to be analysed and discussed based on what we learnt from the re-read, which is why we're engaged in the whole process of rethinking Sansa :) So feel free to join in!

[1234567]

It's too bad you guys ran out of Sansa chapters to analyze and discuss. That was good reading.

She is mentioned in other character's chapters as well. Also one thing the re-read has done is highlight lots of things previously missed (like how much bloody Ser Ilyn comes up in her chapters :frown5: ).

Your thoughts and ideas are welcome!

[Lyanna Stark]

She is mentioned in other character's chapters as well. Also one thing the re-read has done is highlight lots of things previously missed (like how much bloody Ser Ilyn comes up in her chapters :frown5: ). Your thoughts and ideas are welcome!

I wonder if Ser Ilyn simply symbolises death (and especially the loss of Sansa's father) or whether it has more sinister implications for the future? She doesn't seem to contemplate Ser Ilyn once she is free of Kings Landing, so perhaps he represents the death threat of her captivity, i.e. that she lived or died depending on what the Lannisters decided?

Which characters mention Sansa in their chapters? I know Cersei mentions her at least once (especially with the infamous "When I am done with her she will be begging the Stranger for his kiss" comment :lol: ), Tyrion's ASOS chapters have Sansa stuff in them, Arya's travelling with the Hound has her mentioned several times, Ned mentions her a couple of times in AGOT, and he deosn't ahve the heart to leave the tournament since Sansa loves it so much.

Brienne and Jaime talk or think about her, but it's more on a theoretical level (even if Arya is not with Sansa, she knows her well, while to Jaime and Brienne she is a stranger). I think Jon mentions her once when Stannis is offering him Winterfell and Jon says it belongs to Sansa.

Apart from that I am drawing a blank though.

[1234567]

@ Lyanna Stark

It's not in great detail but Arys Oakheart reflects in Dorne that it shamed him every time he hit the poor stark girl. I think it is one of (but certainly not the only) reason he goes along with Arienne's plan. It is one of the things that made me think Sansa is possibly going to be the Younger Queen, as it also has thoughts about her being a motivator in Myrcella's fate.

I often think Cersei was watching out for a younger queen who would actively take everything from her, where as it will actually be Sansa and without having lifted a finger to do so.

In other terms it is just little things like Stannis calling her Lady Lannister, which also supports the theory that she possibly stays Alayne when she finds out that the North has written her off.

Also Cat and Robb discuss her.

[Lyanna Stark]

Rapsie,

Good point about Arys and how it motivated him to go along with Arianne's plan (this basically means that Joffrey's bad treatment of Sansa came back to bite the Lannisters in the arse later. Poetic justice! but poor Myrcella). I should have remembered as well, since it was commented on earlier. :)

Cat thinks about her children an awful lot, and we get to see Brienne mention Cat's description of Sansa. It's interesting to note here that both Ned and Cat really look at Sansa as very gentle, kind and soft, which really puts what she has gone through as an even starker contrast. Of course, to them she is still a child, they never got to see her grow up, but even so, I think both of them underestimated Sansa's strength and capabilities.

Then we have Cat and Robb and Robb's will where he likely disinherited Sansa.

I agree with you about Sansa possibly "keeping" her Alayne persona even if she does not have to because it can bring her other benefits. It's also worth considering that should she inherit Littlefinger, she stands to become a very rich person with a vast network of resources.

One line that stood out to me in ADWD was when Tyrion thinks about missing "the wife he hardly knew", which I think is meant to be ambiguous and could indicate either Sansa or Tysha. The context makes me think it should be Tysha, but Sansa is more recent in the story and he really hardly knew her. I got the impression that he at least had some honest interaction and communication with Tysha.

[Maroucia]

Arrianne vagina is a potent mantrap; a regular swirling vortex of doom. In Dorn, it is known simply as "the sand snake Sucker." Such is her power. And yet Arrianne the Wicked's va gay gay pales in comparison to that engulfing genital of doom. Yes, I speak of the one, the only-- Cersei's vagina. A.K.A., the Great Other. After three books of waiting, Cersei's vagina emerged in book 4 as the series primary antagonist. The powers of Cersei's brain and heart are nothing compared to the unthinkable power of her private lady parts! As Tyrion noted, fat Illario should "ask my sister to open her legs for you. The best part of me for the best part of her." Clearly, the not at all disgusting, misongynistic, or inappropriate Tyrion is corrupted by the mere thought of his sister's vagina'. THAT'S how powerful it is, y'all. Just think about it: --It apparently made Jaime commit numerous acts of murder and torture, leading directly to killing little boys. --It lead to an entire loss of personality and character in Lancel, and ruined his life! -- It led the Kettleblack bro's to lose at roughly 60 IQ points each, for how else can we account for such men managing to make it through childhood without accidentally eating wildfire or sitting on a sword and impaling themselves? --Jaime's rejection of it was dirrectly responsible for his redemption arc. Which entailed leaving Cersei (and her wicked vagina) to die, die die. Clearly, Cersei's genitals are the great other. It is known. :o

The whole ASOIAF story can easily be resumed by Cersei's vagina... :lol:

[Maroucia]

But will they get their own redemption arc?

Ha!

That. is . great.

:lmao:

[1234567]

@ Lyanna Stark

Alayne is known to the servants etc as Lady Alayne, but Mya Stone seems just to be referred to as Mya. Technically Alayne is not a Lady and seems only to be addressed by the title because she is LF's daughter. She seems to be liked by most people in the Vale she has met so far. It is possible that if LF is killed, she would inherit the Fingers (who else would want it?). Littlefinger's money maybe a different issue, especially as the Waynwoods have a large amount of it as Alyane's dowry. They may try to keep the money. Also tracing LF's monetary affairs might be tricky. Either way there maybe be enough money for her to live on the Fingers and improve the place.

If this was the case, would she have the actually title Lady (due to being a bastard) or would it pass on to any legitmate children she might have?

NB: part of the rational here is that the death of Lady means she will never be one. Jaime Lannister's comment about forgetting she ever was a Stark comes in to this reasoning too.

[Lykos]

<snip> Clearly, Cersei's genitals are the great other. <snip>

"I've seen your files, Pow," Lia said to me, "because I have to keep them in order. Whatever your Diabolicals have discovered is already here: take a look." And she patted her belly, her thighs, her forehead; with her spread legs drawing her skirt tight, she sat like a wet nurse, solid and healthy — she so slim and supple — with a serene wisdom that illuminated her and gave her a matriarchal authority. "Pow, archetypes don't exist; the body exists. The belly inside is beautiful, because the baby grows there, because your sweet cock, all bright and jolly, thrusts there, and good, tasty food descends there, and for this reason, the cavern, the grotto, the tunnel are beautiful and important, and the labyrinth , too, which is made in the image of our wonderful intestines. When somebody wants to invent something beautiful and important, it has to come from there, because you also came from there the day you were born, because fertility always comes from inside a cavity, where first something rots and then, lo and behold, there's a little man, a date, a baobab."

• Lia's explanation to Casaubon, Gevurah, Chapter 63
  

[brashcandy]

Inspired by the discussion in the San/San thread, I'd like to pose this question over here, especially now that we have the benefit of having done a thorough analysis of Sansa's arc in the series. Just how exactly do you feel about Sansa's characterization in AGOT? Was she, as a feminine character, subjected to too much authorial condemnation (never mind that of the readers) for her interest in marriage and children from someone like Joffrey? Why is feminine desire almost always presented as shallow and undignified and potentially disastrous (see Sansa, Dany, Arianne) whilst the male desire for sexy, beautiful women seen in such an understandable, even sympathetic light (see Tyrion, Stannis, Quentyn), with much less emphasis on the negative ramifications of such?

Just my brief thoughts on all this:

1. Sansa's characterization by GRRM in AGOT is honestly a bit of a mess.

2. Dany - unworthy queen, rejects alliance with Quentyn - she only did it cause he wasn't goodlooking!

Had he looked like Gerris she would have married him in a heartbeat!

Sansa- nearly destroyed her family with that selfish, foolish love for Joffrey

Arianne - used her wicked sexuality and went against her father's wise authority

Stannis - he's not really sleeping with Melisandre, and if he is it's because he needs to, he gets no pleasure from the act.

Tyrion - just see the Lady Fossoway passage at the purple wedding

Quentyn - he just needed to be given a chance, he would have proved himself worthy. Why should it matter that he came late and was afraid of his own shadow.

Of course, I've done a bit of generalising here, but essentially these are the reactions that a lot of readers seem to hold, and very little criticism is meted out at these male characters for the role they've played in bringing about the destruction of their houses as a direct consequence of their foolish, shallow desires and unrealistic aspirations.

[Harlaw's Book]

The condemnation of Sansa shouldn't stem from wanting love and marriage. The problem is that during AGOT she wants it from Joffrey.

[ElizaMartell]

The condemnation of Sansa shouldn't stem from wanting love and marriage. The problem is that during AGOT she wants it from Joffrey.

Yes the grave crime that she should forever be defined by but others who have done worse are rewarded with a woobie badge. The double standards in this forum is amazing. The type of mental gymnastics people do to justify unfounded hatred ought to be picked up by fox news.

[Grail King]

The condemnation of Sansa shouldn't stem from wanting love and marriage. The problem is that during AGOT she wants it from Joffrey.

Yes she wanted it from a good looking (thou evil )kid whom she thought was her Prince in shining armor per her upbringing.

So lets hang the wench for she is naive ????

scheeez.......

[Harlaw's Book]

My apologies, I don't think I made myself clear. I thought the question was why do people dislike Sansa's preoccupation with love and marriage. And I thought the answer isn't because Sansa wants love and marriage but because she directs her affection toward someone so unworthy of her.

[Lummel]

Inspired by the discussion in the San/San thread, I'd like to pose this question over here, especially now that we have the benefit of having done a thorough analysis of Sansa's arc in the series. Just how exactly do you feel about Sansa's characterization in AGOT? Was she, as a feminine character, subjected to too much authorial condemnation (never mind that of the readers) for her interest in marriage and children from someone like Joffrey? Why is feminine desire almost always presented as shallow and undignified and potentially disastrous (see Sansa, Dany, Arianne) whilst the male desire for sexy, beautiful women seen in such an understandable, even sympathetic light (see Tyrion, Stannis, Quentyn), with much less emphasis on the negative ramifications of such?...

Of course, I've done a bit of generalising here, but essentially these are the reactions that a lot of readers seem to hold, and very little criticism is meted out at these male characters for the role they've played in bringing about the destruction of their houses as a direct consequence of their foolish, shallow desires and unrealistic aspirations.

My brief and probably totally unhelpful reply is - that's why these books are good to reread. It is very easy to be swept along in, for example, the tyrion POV chapters and because he is clever and witty to miss the nasty sides to his character, you have to start to read between the lines to see that. Similarly Quentyn comes across as such a decent person that it's easy to miss that he's silly and neither as sensible nor as reliable as Prince Doran needed him to be. Stannis, maybe he benefits from the Davos glow, you don't want to believe that Davos would be serving such a flawed and limited character, :dunno: , I'm not in the Stannis fan club.