From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Lady.]

I think Sansa is intelligent, but I also understand why people get a false view of her, and I think it's chiefly because she puts too much faith in people to do the right thing. For me, the clearest moment of this is in the scene with Lysa and Moon Door. Here she is standing in front of the door that opens up to the skies, with Lysa in an evident fit of jealousy/rage urging her to open the bars on the door - and what does Sansa do? She opens the doors. I was so frustrated with her at that point. But doing that doesn't make her stupid or unintelligent. 'Duty, Family, Honor' (or whatever order) - Lysa betrays all three tenets of her family motto. Sansa trusts in them too much.

I don't think Daidolos's criticisms of Sansa's lack of agency are completely unwarranted - not at all. But I think what makes Sansa's character arc interesting is what the title of this thread suggests - she starts off a pawn and is in the process of becoming a player. The Sansa of GOT would have never acted on Dontos' note. Which was quite a brave act (even perhaps foolish). She is literally in a pit of lions, receives a note offering help to escape, and she agrees to meet that person. From my reading, this is her journey - to take agency back into her life. And it shouldn't be complete by now. I think in order to make your point you may be overlooking some moments where Sansa does act, and does learn, but she needed to be free of 'Sansa' in order to explore this side of her more - which is exactly what we are starting to see.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think it's more than enough that the author, who is the God in his work, calls him intelligent.

And of course, Sansa also has been mocking the king (just short of doing that openly - luckily Joffrey is a bit thick) and she did stick out her neck to save Dontos (and had to be assisted by Sandor to escape punishment on that one). Guess she is not intelligent either then?

Tyrion himself notes in ADWD that he needs to learn to keep his cakehole shut more often, so YMMV, but this is one of his main weaknesses.

[Grail King]

Notice how Sansa manages to do it without, y'know, Joff realising it?

LOL, at least with the series we can see the effects, the facial impressions of Jack Gleason when Sansa delivers her lines to him is like, did I just get played or was that an insult.

ETA: also lets not forget just like the hound tells her to give the King what he want's she had Dontos tell her he gets more info as a fool than acting smart, and LF statement if you know what someone wants or needs you now have a way to play them.

She is taking all this in and at one time or another is using them.

"W" key

[Lady Kraken]

I don't think she is stupid, but I don't think she is exceptionally intelligent. I don't think her intelligence is on the level of Littlefinger or Tyrion (or Missandei, if you want a more age-appropriate comparison).

Out of curiosity, do you think she needs to be exceptionally intelligent like Petyr Baelish or Tyrion to be an effective player/politician though? Some of the best politicians in real life have not been exceptionally intelligent people, and many exceptionally intelligent people have made awful politicians. Though she is not a child prodigy like Missandei, I think she possesses a number of abilities that would allow her to be an exceptional politician.

One of them is that the people Sansa meets, generally, really like her. She's charming, friendly, and knows the right things to say. Even Tyrion remarks that she would have made a great queen if Joffrey had had the sense to love her. And Sansa herself thinks that if she was to be a queen, she would rule with love rather than fear like Cersei. The ability to make people love you is a definite skill--and a skill that Tyrion himself wishes he had and would have done wonders for him while he was Hand. It's also the reason why even people like the Hound would feel compelled to help her.

She's also shown herself to be quick-thinking. She saves Dontos with a quick lie. She knows what lies she needs to tell to certain people to survive. She's also become good at reading people, which especially comes to light in AFfC when she can tell when Petyr is only smiling with his mouth and not his eyes, when she figures out the Lyn Corbray scam, when she keeps giving the Lord Declarant with red cheeks more wine because she can tell he's a heavy drinker (was this Redfort?). She's getting better at reading people and is cautious to trust anyone--a trait that many of the other players could benefit from. But she also takes calculated risks, like choosing to escape with Dontos.

Petyr himself seems to believe she's quite intelligent when he says that she'll excel with her mother's beauty and her "father's" wits. It's not like he tells her to sit there and look pretty, he gives her rather important tasks to carry out. He trusts her to set everything up for the meeting with the Lords Declarant and she succeeds, he encourages her to work things out on her own (which she does in the case of Lyn Corbray), and he trusts her to get Robert Arryn down the mountain, which she does by appealing to the boy in the right way, something everyone else around her struggles with. Soon, he'll probably task her with winning over her Harry.

Also, she's already caused Petyr, arguably the best player in Westeros, to royally screw up when he kisses her out in open (albeit unintentionally). Having to remove Lysa so early on put him in a precarious position, and it happened because he couldn't control himself around Sansa. In AFfC, Sansa starts picking up on the effect she can have on him (and on men in general--see flirting with the knights in her last chapter) and might start using this to her advantage in the next book.

She's also extremely knowledgeable of the proper courtesies and of who the important people in Westeros are--a skill she displays all the way back in AGoT.

Basically, I would argue that Sansa has the makings of an exceptional politician and player; she's just in the process of learning how to use these traits in the right way. And she is intelligent--she may not be a prodigy, but I really don't think she needs to be to succeed in this role. Petyr's power derives mainly from making the right friends, manipulating people into moving the way he wants, and being underestimated by everyone (Hell, Jaime thinks that Petyr would be the perfect Hand for Tommen in AFfC because he's not threatening). These are all traits that Sansa has shown herself to have, in my opinion.

I agree that simply being highborn and beautiful is not admirable on its own, but it is also not a guarantee of sucess in this world (see Cersei). However, using these natural gifts in clever and calculated ways (possibly like Margaery, though the lack of a Tyrell POV makes this debatable) is admirable in my opinion and should be considered an accomplishment. People need to use what they're given--Tyrion uses his wits, the Hound uses his size and strength--why shouldn't Sansa use her beauty to her advantage? And she's doing quite well posing as a lowborn, bastard girl at the moment.

[Lyanna Stark]

That Sansa's situation is one consequence of Littlefinger's (and many other characters') schemes is utterly irrelevant. When we find ourselves in trouble, we seldom have complete control of the situation. It doesn't change the fact that Sansa needed rescuing. Other characters found themselves in unanticipated situations, and they coped.

Right, as you have not replied to this, but I assume you mean Arya here?

Let's investigate how Arya gets along vs Sansa and how much help she gets post Ned's beheading.

Arya gets helped by Yoren to get out of Kings Landing. Teams up with helpful Gendry and occasionally helpful Hot Pie.

Sansa at this point has nobody in Kings Landing she can trust or who helps her, nor who can take her out of there. The Hound gives her some helpful advice.

Sansa speaks up for Dontos and saves him from death

Arya saves Jaqen, Rorge and Biter from death by throwing them an axe.

Gets moved to Harrenhal by Gregor Clegane by posing as a little boy.

At Harrenhal, she gets helped by Jaqen H'gar to kill people and release the northmen.

Sansa is tossed into a riot and rescued by the Hound. Sansa meets up with Dontos.

Arya murders the guard and gets them out, with Gendry and Hot Pie. Gets apprehended by the BWB including a northman she knows.

Sansa manages to calm the frightened ladies and reach out to the Hound at the BotBW.

Arya meets Lady Smallwood and assorted BWB members.

Sansa gets forcibly married to Tyrion since LF sabotages the Tyrell plot.

Arya escapes the BWB and gets ferried around the Riverlands by the Hound, who saves her life at the Red Wedding. Eventually he brings her almost all the way to Saltpans before "dying".

Sansa escapes Kings Landing and gets ferried out by boat arranged by Littlefinger.

Arrives in the Vale due to LF's help.

Arya arrives in Braavos due to Jaqen's help when he gave her the iron coin.

Agency, smagency. The amount of help Arya gets than Sansa should be obvious to anyone, so unless another person of fairly similar age shows more agency, I think it's a moot point. Arya;s and Sansa's arcs actually run in parallel quite a lot. Arya is only more palatable to the masses since they like ninja assassin girls, nevermind that becoming a killer at that age is harmful.

Unless you are thinking of Dany, but her situation is, as we have seen, quite exceptional in every single way (and she has her fair share of problems).

[Ser Pollo Loco]

only kind of on point, but what really might help Sansa become a force to reckoned with is Arya who has been practicing being a spy and how to tell truth from lies, the ability to tell a lie at court is the equivalent of a super weapon in the game of thrones...Arya can tell if they're lying, Sansa can see why and what the motive is, they would be almost impossible to out maneuver

[Lyanna Stark]

only kind of on point, but what really might help Sansa become a force to reckoned with is Arya who has been practicing being a spy and how to tell truth from lies, the ability to tell a lie at court is the equivalent of a super weapon in the game of thrones...Arya can tell if they're lying, Sansa can see why and what the motive is, they would be almost impossible to out maneuver

You my dear Sir, is made of Clever Things and is not the only one who would like Arya and Sansa to join forces for the good of the Starks and for Westeros.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Before the Battle of the Blackwater, she did not pray for the Lannisters to lose, she prayed for Joffrey to lose and die. Otherwise, let's see :

She sang for her mother and her father, fo her grand father Lord Hoster, for her uncle Edmure Tully, for her friend Jeyne Poole, for old drunken King Robert, for Septa Mordane and Ser Dontos and Jory Cassel and Maester Luwin, for all the brave knights and soldiers who would die today, and for the children and the wifes who would mourn them and finally, towards the end, she even sang for Tyrion the Imp and for the Hound.

Seems to me she is including both sides in her payers...

Then, during the battle, she helps Lancel Lannister (the guy who stood by Joffrey's side while he had her beaten, stripped and humiliated), and speaks to calm the guests (the people who ignored her since her father's disgrace).

She has a gentle heart !

She prays for Joffrey's death? Very cool.

Yes she prays for her friends and family, then she prays for the common people who don't care about the war then she prays for people who saved her life. That's not gentle that's normal praying.

During Blackwater she makes sure to keep the people safe, if the people went crazy the walls might have fallen and if the walls fell Illyn Payne would make sure something else falls

Anyways an ungentle heart does not mean she is a bad person. Was her lady mother gentle when she yelled at King Renly and King Stannis like children or when she told Jon "it should have been you"? Was her Lord Husband gentle when he slapped the heir in Winterfell, or when he threatened the other heir in Kingslanding?

Is this really what the general consensus for Sansa fans?

-Gentle heart (saves Lord Robert)

-Playing LF's game indefinitely, but keeps her eyes closed

- Becoming queen by being whored out! Like her name was fucking Ros!?

That's insane! Sansa will be queen and the master politician in Westeros. Politics in Westeros involve a lot of betraying, killing and other illicit acts it is almost inevitable that Sansa kinslays (at least the Frey, seriously it's a Frey!). Don't you want Sansa to be queen? Like her dreams in AGOT? Don't you want her to rebuild Winterfell? Don't you want a just queen who's blood can unify Westeros and bring the realm to peace?

[brashcandy]

What I said was that her importance derives primarily from her high birth and beauty, not from her abilities or accomplishments. Why is her escape from KL worthy of admiration or respect? To the extent that she was brave enough to go with Dontos, I suppose it was laudable, but she was a passive participant. She did not create or consciously contribute towards the circumstance that allowed her to flee, nor did she seize the opportunity on her own; the event was plotted by someone else, and she was lead to safety by someone else. Yes, she is not an utter coward, but I don't see how this is particularly impressive.

I'm waiting (patiently) for you to tell me how she could have created the circumstances that allowed her to flee KL. Just please tell me this. Who should she have turned to, when even before her father's head was chopped off she was already being shunned by the nobles at court?

I brought up intelligence as a point of comparison, simply to say I thought it unlikely that Sansa would become as skilled a player as LF. I wish for Sansa to learn the rules of the game, but I express my reservations regarding her potential. I also said that I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

As I told you upthread, Sansa does not need to be as a player like LF. A woman's success and how we interpret it does not have to be defined against a man's. You seem to have a very specific idea about what becoming a "skilled player like LF" means. I think it means becoming ruthless and unconscionable. I don't wish to see Sansa's arc turn in this direction. She can play the game and be judged on her own skill set, thank you very much.

That Sansa's situation is one consequence of Littlefinger's (and many other characters') schemes is utterly irrelevant. When we find ourselves in trouble, we seldom have complete control of the situation. It doesn't change the fact that Sansa needed rescuing. Other characters found themselves in unanticipated situations, and they coped. On that note, I would say that Sansa did cope in a way--she did not give in to despair, which is a point in her favour--but actively plot to escape? I think you exaggerate greatly. She was the puppet, not the puppetmaster, and I don't think meeting with Dontos or offering passive resistance to the various indignities she suffers at the hands of her oppressors rises to the level of "actively plot[ing] to escape."

Utterly irrelevant?? So you're telling me that it matters not that LF is responsible for creating the total shitfuck that Sansa finds herself in, the same shitfuck that you then expect her to rescue herself from? Does this make sense? And who are these other characters that found themselves in unanticipated situations and coped? List them out please! :) As for my stating that Sansa actively plotted to escape, I stand by it and dispute that it is in any way an exaggeration. It matters not that LF came up with the plan. What matters is that Sansa seized the opportunity and was committed to seeing it through. As for her "passive resistance to the various indignities" this is how she managed to survive her captivity. She couldn't pick up a knife and hurl insults at Cersei and co. Passive resistance was a choice she made, and it was the smart one.

However reprehensible, it is a skill. And other people certainly are resources to be used.

Yes, admirable indeed.

I must say, I don't think your indignation is conducive to discussion. I am not the one who is making excuses for characters' behaviour. One can admire the skill with which a fencer wields his or her weapon without condoning the fencer's behaviour when he or she stabs an innocent person.

Indignation? Frankly, I'm quite amused watching you credit a pervert and user like LF with skills and talent while denying that Sansa is worthy of respect or admiration.

However "honest and genuine" their conncection may be, it is tangled up with a very nasty web, as I've alluded to in previous posts. Moreover, I don't think it is unwarranted to question how healthy their relationship is, considering the young age and immaturity of one of the participants and the stressful circumstances (putting it mildly). You simplify the problems with the power imbalance: it's not simply that Sandor is stronger, Sansa is also a prisoner. Her life is in mortal danger, and he is one of her captors.

I'm not simplifying anything and if you think so, my apologies. I've been in this debate long enough to know that some people simply refuse to see the positive aspects of that relationship, and I fear you are one. It is certainly useful to question how healthy the relationship is. I've done it countless times myself. However, I'm not going to shut down the possibilities and benefits of it because it emerged from a dark period in their lives. They were able to foster something decent despite the terrible circumstances around them. And this is what I value and appreciate. As for Sandor being one of her captors, I don't think it's as black and white as that. Sandor was working for the Lannisters yes, but from the very first book he's offering Sansa advice, and actively lying to spare her injury. Then he comes to rescue her on the night of the Blackwater. Rather than portraying Sandor as a captor, Martin has shown him as someone interested in assisting and ultimately freeing Sansa.

[Grail King]

only kind of on point, but what really might help Sansa become a force to reckoned with is Arya who has been practicing being a spy and how to tell truth from lies, the ability to tell a lie at court is the equivalent of a super weapon in the game of thrones...Arya can tell if they're lying, Sansa can see why and what the motive is, they would be almost impossible to out maneuver

They are the same coin two facets, each augments the others short comings, Sansa is knowledgeable of laws,customs and political maneuvers, Arya is streetwise and deadly with out being imposing.

They should work well with each other.

[Lyanna Stark]

That's insane! Sansa will be queen and the master politician in Westeros. Politics in Westeros involve a lot of betraying, killing and other illicit acts it is almost inevitable that Sansa kinslays (at least the Frey, seriously it's a Frey!). Don't you want Sansa to be queen? Like her dreams in AGOT? Don't you want her to rebuild Winterfell? Don't you want a just queen who's blood can unify Westeros and bring the realm to peace?

You have mixed up your characters. Dany is the one you are thinking of. She actually wants to be Queen (and with some better bloody advisors she'd be kickass at it too). Sansa wants the Starks back on track, and she wants to not ever be in an arranged marriage again. Ever.

[Daidalos]

It seems I've a lot to reply to...

Out of interest, which do you think are more interesting?

I think it should be obvious that I consider LF to be more interesting. This is because I think that political intrigue is fascinating, so it is only natural that I would consider one of the better political players in the books to be interesting.

Some more characters that I find interesting: Barristan Selmy, Jaime, Brienne, Missandei, Queen of Thorns, Sandor (yes, actually), Maester Luwin, Qyburn, Jorah Mormont, Bronn, Roose Bolton, Tywin. Not all of them villains, not all of them masterminds, but for some reason or other I happen to like them.

1. Indeed. Dany has Dragons, the equivalent of weapons of mass destruction. Calling it "exceptional circumstances" feels like the understatement of the week.

2. Which children, younger than Sansa, are agents in their own way? If you are talking Tomboy!assasin!Arya, I can give you quotes where she has to rely on a lot of other people to get where she is today. I also don't think her descent into darkness is something that can be recommended. Arya is essentially a child soldier.

3. Again, your complaints are about how her character is written. She is written to have her agency restricted, yet she does what she can. She resists kneeling at her wedding with Tyrion, she asks him not to consummate the wedding, she pleads with Dontos to get a ship out of the city as soon as possible, she hides her motives to everyone in Kings Landing. I am curious, what do you think she should have done? You obviously isn't happy with her actions, which means you have something else in mind you think would have been a correct way of handling things.

1. Yes, I will grant you that. Dany has a lot of things going for her (another understatement, I am ever so fond of them). And I don't find her interesting.

2. You have a point here as well. I think Arya does show more initiative, a lot more initiative, than Sansa does, and that she is less reliant on others than Sansa is, but you have a point. I can't think of any other children who are their own agents, and at the same time are interesting to me. This doesn't help me with my complaint that I find Sansa uninteresting, however.

3. I don't know what purpose Sansa is supposed to serve, but for me her chapters are enjoyable because they show us fascinating aspects of the story that we would otherwise not see. I don't think I have said that she should have done something else; her actions, as they are, do seem reasonable. The problem for me is that it doesn't make Sansa interesting or exciting as a character. I suppose I must admit that my problem is with the way her character is written, but I'm not sure I would have it any differently. As I said, I enjoy her chapters, I don't think it is necessary to enjoy all characters in a work of fiction that you love. I love Mozart's Don Giovanni, but I think the character of Don Ottavio is boring as hell.

As we discussed upthreads, Sandor has issues, but people often talk about him as if he was deranged. Which he clearly isn't. He is overly cynical, has unresolved emotional issues and as of ACOK a rather nihilistic outlook on the world, but so far he has not really shown any signs of being a given abuser or wifebeater, which some seem to think. In fact, both Tyrion and Littlefinger are far scarier people in this regard. Sandor has gone out of his way and above and beyond anything he needed to do selfless acts for Sansa. What is more, as Brashcandy has already pointed out, in the text they remember each other with longing and fondness. I don't necessarily think Daario is great for Dany, or that Jaime is a fantastic choice for Brienne, but these are the choices the characters have made in the novels. Neither of these relationships are traditional, but they're there, whether we as readers like it or not.

He isn't deranged, but he has issues, and I think those issues are severe enough so that I wouldn't wish for Sandor to enter into a relationship with Sansa. I agree with you about Littlefinger and Tyrion. Much has been said about LF's abusive behaviour, and I agree with that, but Tyrion's feelings regarding women are highly suspect. I would say, however, that we do not have the benefit of Sandor's perspective, as we have with Tyrion. Finally, on this topic, I don't think we can forgive Sandor's serious (SERIOUS) flaws by pointing at even scarier people. There is always someone worse.

The fandom? Some in the fandom want Jaime to marry Sansa, some want Dany to die. I stick to what the novels tell us and the textual evidence is that Sansa and Sandor, separately of each other, seem to fancy the other. The same text also indicates that this is true for Brienne and Jaime.

As I have stated before, this is not a "fandom is creepy" sort of complaint, this is you thinking "the author should not have written this". Which is fine, but a completely different complaint.

And I say that if the relationship does not become romantic, I have no issue with it; it is the advocacy that I find disturbing, for manifold reasons. So I dispute the second point: it is fandom I find creepy, not the text. Before I became aware of the fandom, I liked the text.

[Grail King]

You have mixed up your characters. Dany is the one you are thinking of. She actually wants to be Queen (and with some better bloody advisors she'd be kickass at it too). Sansa wants the Starks back on track, and she wants to not ever be in an arranged marriage again. Ever.

I would add -- of her choosing.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

You have mixed up your characters. Dany is the one you are thinking of. She actually wants to be Queen (and with some better bloody advisors she'd be kickass at it too). Sansa wants the Starks back on track, and she wants to not ever be in an arranged marriage again. Ever.

I agree 100% with the arranged marriage, Sansa is not a whore. (besides she's already married).

How can the Starks (and Tullys!) get back on track? Mayhaps with a leader like a Mayor, or , a Sheek, or a Viceroy, hmm how about a Queen?

But did you just say Sansa does not want to be queen? What about (i don't have the book so the quotes are not right) "she was seated above all of them sitting by the Iron Throne" or "It's all I've ever wanted"? But I agree that was in the beginning when forshadowing was applicable, we are ways past that now. She has been through alot beat and stripped in court, threatened by Cersei all the time, watched her dad die, her wolf died (somewhat her fault), forced to marry the Imp, getting threatened to be raped by Joff and San/San! Nobody in Westeros deserves revenge more the Sansa The younger and more beautiful QUEEN!!

[Grail King]

@daidalos

I think it should be obvious that I consider LF to be more interesting. This is because I think that political intrigue is fascinating, so it is only natural that I would consider one of the better political players in the books to be interesting.

Some more characters that I find interesting: Barristan Selmy, Jaime, Brienne, Missandei, Queen of Thorns, Sandor (yes, actually), Maester Luwin, Qyburn, Jorah Mormont, Bronn, Roose Bolton, Tywin. Not all of them villains, not all of them masterminds, but for some reason or other I happen to like them.

Yes it is hard to read or watch a student come into their own when all your getting from her are inner monologues , but the

facts are she is moving and growing.

As I said above the people your comparing her to are 20+ years her senior.

​I happened not to entirely agree with whom you find interesting, some are yes people, some parrots and others plainly evil but we get no feedback from them so how can I find them interesting.

[Lyanna Stark]

2. You have a point here as well. I think Arya does show more initiative, a lot more initiative, than Sansa does, and that she is less reliant on others than Sansa is, but you have a point. I can't think of any other children who are their own agents, and at the same time are interesting to me. This doesn't help me with my complaint that I find Sansa uninteresting, however.

Most of this is a fallacy because Arya is fiercer. But in reality, she gets more outside help than Sansa. The difference is that she also murders people. You can of course argue that this is sensible behaviour, but then I would seriously question your doubts about the Hound based on his tendencies towards violence. In fact, as shown in his travels with Arya, they are quite alike. Turning into stone cold killers as a coping mechanism. In fact, I don't judge Arya for her actions, but she will have to deal with what she has become sooner or later.

3. I don't know what purpose Sansa is supposed to serve, but for me her chapters are enjoyable because they show us fascinating aspects of the story that we would otherwise not see. I don't think I have said that she should have done something else; her actions, as they are, do seem reasonable. The problem for me is that it doesn't make Sansa interesting or exciting as a character. I suppose I must admit that my problem is with the way her character is written, but I'm not sure I would have it any differently. As I said, I enjoy her chapters, I don't think it is necessary to enjoy all characters in a work of fiction that you love. I love Mozart's Don Giovanni, but I think the character of Don Ottavio is boring as hell.

Oh Sansa isn't a "typical" fantasy character. She's a subversion of the damsel in distress trope, to a large degree, but she's also about a sheltered idealist getting her views of the world thoroughly smashed when encountering a particularly vicious reality she was in no way prepared for. Most of her chapters really aren't special on a first read through unless a lot of attention is paid, but gain on subsequent rereads, since on top of the massive amounts of intrigue that takes place, a lot of her interaction with the Hound can be read on several levels, often especially illustrative in the unsaid.

He isn't deranged, but he has issues, and I think those issues are severe enough so that I wouldn't wish for Sandor to enter into a relationship with Sansa. I agree with you about Littlefinger and Tyrion. Much has been said about LF's abusive behaviour, and I agree with that, but Tyrion's feelings regarding women are highly suspect. I would say, however, that we do not have the benefit of Sandor's perspective, as we have with Tyrion. Finally, on this topic, I don't think we can forgive Sandor's serious (SERIOUS) flaws by pointing at even scarier people. There is always someone worse.

There is always someone worse, but again this is putting your own subjective value on characters. Personally I find Bronn absolutely appalling and have no idea why anyone likes that murderous, ambitious son of a bitch who is fine with letting Lady Tanda die of her "injuries" and who is perfectly ok with marrying poor Lollys who really has no choice in the matter, after which point he makes sure to drive away her entire family. So is Bronn better or worse than say, Tywin? Or Roose Bolton? All matters of subjective opinion.

As has been pointed out upthreads, people also tend to overestimate Sandor's mental issues as if he is somehow a brutal monster who is barely human, but everything from POVs who aren't Sansa or Arya (Cersei, Tyrion, Ned) point to him being disciplined, competent, loyal, not drunk on the job and inspiring enough to be a leader of men (unlike Ser Mandon Moore for instance) and Tyrion even actively dislikes Sandor, yet can appreciate his usefulness and skill. If he was as mentally deranged as some seem to imply, Cersei would not be falling over herself to make him Joffrey's Kingsguard. In fact, he's used to working for a female boss too (he was "Cersei's dog" for years), so any issues with female leadership should be moot.

This does by no means mean that he's not without issues, but at one of the absolute lowest points in his life, he still restrains himself from actually doing Sansa any harm. He also only hits Arya once, and that is to save her life at the Red Wedding. Oh he threatens a great deal, but as Arya notes and Sansa also grasps: his bark is worse than his bite. Sandor is interesting to read about since there is often a dichotomy between what he says and what he does. He's also introduced as a complete villain, but as the story unfolds and we get to see more of him, we can see that he is in fact not and that there are several dimensions to his character.

And I say that if the relationship does not become romantic, I have no issue with it; it is the advocacy that I find disturbing, for manifold reasons. So I dispute the second point: it is fandom I find creepy, not the text. Before I became aware of the fandom, I liked the text.

Now this is just confusing. Are you against the writer inserting that the characters fancy eachother, or are you against the readers picking up on it?

If by this you mean "Before I came here I didn't realise Sansa and Sandor fancied eachother" then I can only recommend a reread. I'd try all Ned's and Sansa's AGOT chapters, all of Sansa's ACOK chapter and the Tyrion riot chapter, all of Sansa's ASOS and Arya's ASOS once she encounters the Hound in the Riverlands. Add then Brienne's chapter before and during the QI and Sansa's in AFFC.

[Daidalos]

Out of curiosity, do you think she needs to be exceptionally intelligent like Petyr Baelish or Tyrion to be an effective player/politician though? Some of the best politicians in real life have not been exceptionally intelligent people, and many exceptionally intelligent people have made awful politicians. Though she is not a child prodigy like Missandei, I think she possesses a number of abilities that would allow her to be an exceptional politician.

In the real world, I might agree with you more than I do right now, but it seems to me that Westeros is more infested with conspiracies than other worlds. And the greatest conspirators and schemers, rather than politicians, seem to me to require a deal of intelligence.

I would make a distinction between a bona fide player of the game of thrones and a politician. I think Sansa might make a good politician (we can't say, because she never has possessed any executive authority), but not so great a conspirator or player in the game of thrones. Will she be able to see to fruition plans that would propel her to power, forge reliable alliances, and remove (not necessarily lethally) her adversaries from the game board? It is possible, but I don't think very likely.

One of them is that the people Sansa meets, generally, really like her. She's charming, friendly, and knows the right things to say. Even Tyrion remarks that she would have made a great queen if Joffrey had had the sense to love her. And Sansa herself thinks that if she was to be a queen, she would rule with love rather than fear like Cersei. The ability to make people love you is a definite skill--and a skill that Tyrion himself wishes he had and would have done wonders for him while he was Hand. It's also the reason why even people like the Hound would feel compelled to help her.

She's also shown herself to be quick-thinking. She saves Dontos with a quick lie. She knows what lies she needs to tell to certain people to survive. She's also become good at reading people, which especially comes to light in AFfC when she can tell when Petyr is only smiling with his mouth and not his eyes, when she figures out the Lyn Corbray scam, when she keeps giving the Lord Declarant with red cheeks more wine because she can tell he's a heavy drinker (was this Redfort?). She's getting better at reading people and is cautious to trust anyone--a trait that many of the other players could benefit from. But she also takes calculated risks, like choosing to escape with Dontos.

Petyr himself seems to believe she's quite intelligent when he says that she'll excel with her mother's beauty and her "father's" wits. It's not like he tells her to sit there and look pretty, he gives her rather important tasks to carry out. He trusts her to set everything up for the meeting with the Lords Declarant and she succeeds, he encourages her to work things out on her own (which she does in the case of Lyn Corbray), and he trusts her to get Robert Arryn down the mountain, which she does by appealing to the boy in the right way, something everyone else around her struggles with. Soon, he'll probably task her with winning over her Harry.

Also, she's already caused Petyr, arguably the best player in Westeros, to royally screw up when he kisses her out in open (albeit unintentionally). Having to remove Lysa so early on put him in a precarious position, and it happened because he couldn't control himself around Sansa. In AFfC, Sansa starts picking up on the effect she can have on him (and on men in general--see flirting with the knights in her last chapter) and might start using this to her advantage in the next book.

She's also extremely knowledgeable of the proper courtesies and of who the important people in Westeros are--a skill she displays all the way back in AGoT.

Basically, I would argue that Sansa has the makings of an exceptional politician and player; she's just in the process of learning how to use these traits in the right way. And she is intelligent--she may not be a prodigy, but I really don't think she needs to be to succeed in this role. Petyr's power derives mainly from making the right friends, manipulating people into moving the way he wants, and being underestimated by everyone (Hell, Jaime thinks that Petyr would be the perfect Hand for Tommen in AFfC because he's not threatening). These are all traits that Sansa has shown herself to have, in my opinion.

I agree that simply being highborn and beautiful is not admirable on its own, but it is also not a guarantee of sucess in this world (see Cersei). However, using these natural gifts in clever and calculated ways (possibly like Margaery, though the lack of a Tyrell POV makes this debatable) is admirable in my opinion and should be considered an accomplishment. People need to use what they're given--Tyrion uses his wits, the Hound uses his size and strength--why shouldn't Sansa use her beauty to her advantage? And she's doing quite well posing as a lowborn, bastard girl at the moment.

Actually, I would just like to say that this was excellently well put. This would be evidence in favour of her growing into her role as an agent. What I would like to see is Sansa making a decision and then taking steps to execute it.

However, I still don't think she has potential to rival the greatest players. I do hope to be proven wrong on this point.

[Daidalos]

Most of this is a fallacy because Arya is fiercer. But in reality, she gets more outside help than Sansa. The difference is that she also murders people. You can of course argue that this is sensible behaviour, but then I would seriously question your doubts about the Hound based on his tendencies towards violence. In fact, as shown in his travels with Arya, they are quite alike. Turning into stone cold killers as a coping mechanism. In fact, I don't judge Arya for her actions, but she will have to deal with what she has become sooner or later.

But I'm not saying Arya's behaviour is sensible! Have I held up Arya as a moral paragon in comparison to the Hound? I have not.

I'm willing to grant that Arya receives her share of help, perhaps even more than Sansa, but she is also more of an agent than Sansa is. This does not make her a better person, quite the opposite, but she is at least more willing to break her constraints than Sansa is.

However, I happily concede this point to you.

Oh there is always someone worse, but again this is putting your own subjective value on characters. Personally I find Bronn absolutely appalling and have no idea why anyone likes that murderous, ambitious son of a bitch who is fine with letting Lady Tanda die of her "injuries" and who is perfectly ok with marrying poor Lollys who really has no choice in the matter, after which point he makes sure to drive away her entire family. So is Bronn better or worse than say, Tywin? Or Roose Bolton? All matters of subjective opinion.

As has been pointed out upthreads, people also tend to overestimate Sandor's mental issues as if he is somehow a brutal monster who is barely human, but everything from POVs who aren't Sansa or Arya (Cersei, Tyrion, Ned) point to him being disciplined, competent, loyal, not drunk on the job and inspiring enough to be a leader of men (unlike Ser Mandon Moore for instance) and Tyrion even actively dislikes Sandor, yet can appreciate his usefulness and skill. If he was as mentally deranged as some seem to imply, Cersei would not be falling over herself to make him Joffrey's Kingsguard. In fact, he's used to working for a female boss too (he was "Cersei's dog" for years), so any issues with female leadership should be moot.

This does by no means mean that he's not without issues, but at one of the absolute lowest points in his life, he still restrains himself from actually doing Sansa any harm. He also only hits Arya once, and that is to save her life at the Red Wedding. Oh he threatens a great deal, but as Arya notes and Sansa also grasps: his bark is worse than his bite.

I have no problems with admitting that Sandor is a human being and not a monster, and I have already said as much. Moreover, I will stipulate to his general competency, loyalty and skill. Where I differ with you is that I don't think this compensates for his negative qualities. He is a murderer, he has been abusive (and don't tell me words can't be abuse), and at times he can be unstable.

Now this is just confusing. Are you against the writer inserting that the characters fancy eachother, or are you against the readers picking up on it?

I am against readers rhapsodizing their relationship without acknowledging some of its truly twisted aspects. I also contend the degree to which they "fancy" each other, considering the young age of Sansa. Are we really to think that a twelve year old's infatuation (if that) with her troubled captor during extremely stressful conditions is an indication that a future relationship between the two could be healthy?

[Daidalos]

I'm waiting (patiently) for you to tell me how she could have created the circumstances that allowed her to flee KL. Just please tell me this. Who should she have turned to, when even before her father's head was chopped off she was already being shunned by the nobles at court?

I'm sorry to have tested your patience. I did not anticipate this flood of replies.

As I suggested in previous posts, I'm not sure she could have done things differently. I am not disputing sensible decisions. However reasonable she might have been, however justified caution might have been during such a dangerous situation, it does not make Sansa as an individual character more appealing to me. Perhaps circumstances conspired against her and she was placed in an awfully unfair situation, but that does not oblige me to find her interesting. I do not consider Sansa to be an interesting character, and I think my reasons are as valid as anyone else's, as valid as subjective opinions can be, no matter the narrative situation the author placed her in.

As I told you upthread, Sansa does not need to be as a player like LF. A woman's success and how we interpret it does not have to be defined against a man's. You seem to have a very specific idea about what becoming a "skilled player like LF" means. I think it means becoming ruthless and unconscionable. I don't wish to see Sansa's arc turn in this direction. She can play the game and be judged on her own skill set, thank you very much.

I began my initial post in this thread with stating my own opinion. You think otherwise. I would like for the conscious, well-reasoned, and intentioned decisions of female characters to affect large-scale societal change. As it stands, it seems that this is simply the purview of a small number of male characters. I bemoan this state of affairs and wish it were otherwise. I don't think it necessarily follows that one must surrender all morality, but even it does, it would be an interesting notion to consider. It seems a most nihilistic thought.

Utterly irrelevant?? So you're telling me that it matters not that LF is responsible for creating the total shitfuck that Sansa finds herself in, the same shitfuck that you then expect her to rescue herself from? Does this make sense? And who are these other characters that found themselves in unanticipated situations and coped? List them out please! :) As for my stating that Sansa actively plotted to escape, I stand by it and dispute that it is in any way an exaggeration. It matters not that LF came up with the plan. What matters is that Sansa seized the opportunity and was committed to seeing it through. As for her "passive resistance to the various indignities" this is how she managed to survive her captivity. She couldn't pick up a knife and hurl insults at Cersei and co. Passive resistance was a choice she made, and it was the smart one.

Why should it matter if Littlefinger was responsible? If he wasn't responsible for her situation in KL, but subsequently executed the exact same plot to extricate her from the capital, would it change the nature of her achievement? I maintain that it would not.

As for her active plotting, I think I have already explained my thoughts on this issue. Regarding her choices, as I wrote previously, it may be that she made sensible decisions considering the circumstances, but my interest in her character isn't contingent on her sensibility under duress.

Yes, admirable indeed.

Yes. Skill is to be admired. The application of that skill is a different matter.

Indignation? Frankly, I'm quite amused watching you credit a pervert and user like LF with skills and talent while denying that Sansa is worthy of respect or admiration.

In terms of achievement and skill, Littlefinger eclipses Sansa. In terms of morality, Littlefinger is an insect. I will grant that Sansa's grace under pressure deserves a degree of respect and admiration, but that does not make her into an interesting character in my eyes.

I'm not simplifying anything and if you think so, my apologies. I've been in this debate long enough to know that some people simply refuse to see the positive aspects of that relationship, and I fear you are one. It is certainly useful to question how healthy the relationship is. I've done it countless times myself. However, I'm not going to shut down the possibilities and benefits of it because it emerged from a dark period in their lives. They were able to foster something decent despite the terrible circumstances around them. And this is what I value and appreciate. As for Sandor being one of her captors, I don't think it's as black and white as that. Sandor was working for the Lannisters yes, but from the very first book he's offering Sansa advice, and actively lying to spare her injury. Then he comes to rescue her on the night of the Blackwater. Rather than portraying Sandor as a captor, Martin has shown him as someone interested in assisting and ultimately freeing Sansa.

I see the positive aspects, but I don't think they outweigh the negatives. I question the virtue of a romantic relationship, but I do not deny what they had.

[Queen of Spades]

She prays for Joffrey's death? Very cool.

Yes she prays for her friends and family, then she prays for the common people who don't care about the war then she prays for people who saved her life. That's not gentle that's normal praying.

No, she does not pray for the common people, she prays for "all the brave knights and soldiers" : Lannister knights and soldiers are included, whether they are lowborn or noble, Lannisters or Baratheons. And this is gentle. Were I in her position I would have prayed for Stannis to win and the Lannisters to die. All of them. She does not. She thinks of everybody, and she even prays for a bloody Lannister !

During Blackwater she makes sure to keep the people safe, if the people went crazy the walls might have fallen and if the walls fell Illyn Payne would make sure something else falls

Do you really think the walls would have fallen if the ladies in the Queen's Ballroom had started to panick ? They were not the ones holding the walls. And taking care of Lancel, that was also to prevent the walls from falling ?

If you read her POV at that moment, she does these things as by instinct. She does not reflect "well, let's see : if I do that, then this will happen, and this, and then...". No, she is driven to it because it is natural for her to help people. Because of her gentle heart.

Do you want other examples of her gentleness ?

- Saving Ser Dontos : no reason to do it, except pity and her gentle heart

- Feeling guilty after she refused to kneel before Tyrion. Poor girl wants to keep a little pride (who can blame her ?), but when she sees Tyrion's face, she feels sorry for him. Because... she is nice and gentle.

Anyways an ungentle heart does not mean she is a bad person. Was her lady mother gentle when she yelled at King Renly and King Stannis like children or when she told Jon "it should have been you"? Was her Lord Husband gentle when he slapped the heir in Winterfell, or when he threatened the other heir in Kingslanding?

This is irrelevant. We are debating Sansa, not Cat or Tyrion. Do you have examples of Sansa doing this sort of thing ?

That's insane! Sansa will be queen and the master politician in Westeros. Politics in Westeros involve a lot of betraying, killing and other illicit acts it is almost inevitable that Sansa kinslays (at least the Frey, seriously it's a Frey!). Don't you want Sansa to be queen? Like her dreams in AGOT? Don't you want her to rebuild Winterfell? Don't you want a just queen who's blood can unify Westeros and bring the realm to peace?

Actually, I don't. :dunno: I want her to have a nice family, with children and puppies. And most of all, I want her to keep her gentle heart. She is one of the few characters truly nice and gentle, I don't want her to lose it.

If Sansa really has to be a queen, I'd like her to be Queen in the North ("Queen in the North ! Queen in the North!"), where you can rule without being a twisted plotting liar (Ned had no problems ruling the North, problems began when he went south).

In fact, I want her to use her gamer skills to get away from LF and get the North back, and then I don't want her to have anything to do with this ugly Iron Throne ever.