From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Gingerly Grumkin]

No, she does not pray for the common people, she prays for "all the brave knights and soldiers" : Lannister knights and soldiers are included, whether they are lowborn or noble, Lannisters or Baratheons. And this is gentle. Were I in her position I would have prayed for Stannis to win and the Lannisters to die. All of them. She does not. She thinks of everybody, and she even prays for a bloody Lannister !

The common people are the soldiers (mayhaps 90% of the population of Westeros). And this bloddy Lannister that you speak of saved her life

Do you really think the walls would have fallen if the ladies in the Queen's Ballroom had started to panick ? They were not the ones holding the walls. And taking care of Lancel, that was also to prevent the walls from falling ?

If you read her POV at that moment, she does these things as by instinct. She does not reflect "well, let's see : if I do that, then this will happen, and this, and then...". No, she is driven to it because it is natural for her to help people. Because of her gentle heart.

No, I suppose that wasn't for keeping the wall up, she does do it by instinct. Although when you say gentle heart I think Cat Tully's daughter and future queen. I mean Cersei invited them over! Was that because she has a gentle heart as well?

Do you want other examples of her gentleness ?

- Saving Ser Dontos : no reason to do it, except pity and her gentle heart

- Feeling guilty after she refused to kneel before Tyrion. Poor girl wants to keep a little pride (who can blame her ?), but when she sees Tyrion's face, she feels sorry for him. Because... she is nice and gentle.

This is irrelevant. We are debating Sansa, not Cat or Tyrion. Do you have examples of Sansa doing this sort of thing ?

- not wanting an innocent knight to die is not the same thing as being gentle

- her pride? what pride is that? burning her bed? crying all the time? Or mayhaps she'll use the pride of her family, you know skinchanging northerners with there bloddy trees, her traitor father? Sansa may feel sorry, but in no way can you call this scenerio a time that Sansa had a gentle heart, just like

-Making fun of Arya

- Lying to king Robert becasue Joff's eyes are green and dreemy.

Even the way she talks is proper as opposed to gentle "my bastard half brother Jon" insted of just "Jon".

She is also a bit of a bitch (nothing that bad, just her mom's daughter)

Jeyne Poole "I saw your sister in the stables walking on her hands, why would she do something like that"? Sansa was sure she didn't know why Arya does anything

Actually, I don't. :dunno: I want her to have a nice family, with children and puppies. And most of all, I want her to keep her gentle heart. She is one of the few characters truly nice and gentle, I don't want her to lose it.

If Sansa really has to be a queen, I'd like her to be Queen in the North ("Queen in the North ! Queen in the North!"), where you can rule without being a twisted plotting liar (Ned had no problems ruling the North, problems began when he went south).

In fact, I want her to use her gamer skills to get away from LF and get the North back, and then I don't want her to have anything to do with this ugly Iron Throne ever.

Ha! Children and puppies! Then you should not be reading ASOIAF, the depressing political books besides fuck Robert and his puppies, Lady is the only pet for Sansa.

Ok Queen in the North ("Queen in the North ! Queen in the North!") how can she get that when Westerling (you know the sketchy new family that was the downfall of Robb and his mom!) is next in line for the throne! How can she allow her people to serve under a Westerling?

I agree fuck the Iron throne, I'm intrested in Sansa's land, in the people that loved Ned Stark. I want Sansa to get her aunts land (which is somewhat unrealistic) and I really want her to like you said go North, and take the Riverlands from the fucking Freys!!! It's more kinavenging then kinslaying

[brashcandy]

I'm sorry to have tested your patience. I did not anticipate this flood of replies.

As I suggested in previous posts, I'm not sure she could have done things differently. I am not disputing sensible decisions. However reasonable she might have been, however justified caution might have been during such a dangerous situation, it does not make Sansa as an individual character more appealing to me. Perhaps circumstances conspired against her and she was placed in an awfully unfair situation, but that does not oblige me to find her interesting. I do not consider Sansa to be an interesting character, and I think my reasons are as valid as anyone else's, as valid as subjective opinions can be, no matter the narrative situation the author placed her in.

No, they're not valid because you're yet to say anything beyond you don't like her because you don't find her interesting. She's in a situation that you don't like and you don't like how she handles it, essentially. As others have pointed out, she handles it in the best possible manner she could have, but you still don't like her or find her interesting. This is all fine and well, but there's nothing "valid" about such reasoning beyond hey, your opinion!

I began my initial post in this thread with stating my own opinion. You think otherwise. I would like for the conscious, well-reasoned, and intentioned decisions of female characters to affect large-scale societal change. As it stands, it seems that this is simply the purview of a small number of male characters. I bemoan this state of affairs and wish it were otherwise. I don't think it necessarily follows that one must surrender all morality, but even it does, it would be an interesting notion to consider. It seems a most nihilistic thought.

I really question how much you wish this were otherwise. You seem to be completely fascinated with LF's characterisation despite his stated reprehensible practice of abusing and exploiting women. If this is the skill you admire then it's easy to see why you might find it hard to appreciate Sansa.

Why should it matter if Littlefinger was responsible? If he wasn't responsible for her situation in KL, but subsequently executed the exact same plot to extricate her from the capital, would it change the nature of her achievement? I maintain that it would not.

It matters because he's the one who set the terms for her exploitation and since he has "freed" her, he's been on a mission to tighten those screws. LF has done "nothing" to help Sansa. Do you know why she makes the distinction between Sansa and Alayne in AFFC when it comes to Littlefinger? Because she realises that Alayne was always a plot in LF's plans, he freed Sansa to create Alayne. But Sansa knows the ones who actually helped her out during that time and it was not LF.

As for her active plotting, I think I have already explained my thoughts on this issue. Regarding her choices, as I wrote previously, it may be that she made sensible decisions considering the circumstances, but my interest in her character isn't contingent on her sensibility under duress.

Again, this equates to saying: I don't like Sansa because I don't like Sansa.

Yes. Skill is to be admired. The application of that skill is a different matter.

I haven't seen you making that distinction in your effusive praise for LF. Personally, I don't think skill can be separated from its application. Actions have consequences and all that. And this is something Sansa herself will have to be mindful of, particularly when it comes to Sweetrobin.

I'm willing to grant that Arya receives her share of help, perhaps even more than Sansa, but she is also more of an agent than Sansa is. This does not make her a better person, quite the opposite, but she is at least more willing to break her constraints than Sansa is.

Becoming a killer does not make you an agent. Initially Arya was doing what she had to survive, as was Sansa, but for Sansa to kill anyone in KL would have been equivalent to signing her own death warrant. Furthermore, becoming an agent of one's destiny is near to impossible when one is imprisoned or on the run. Both girls are now undergoing "training" presumably designed to give them more power and agency, but there are moral and ethical standards which they are in danger of transgressing. Both of them need to realise that their mentors might only be interested in creating them in their own images for further exploitation. Ultimately, playing the game whilst keeping one's self worth and identity are absolutely crucial to future empowerment.

And I've neglected to this in the heat of the debate, but welcome to the board Daidalos.

[David Selig]

You know who did something dumber than anything Sansa did during the series when he was 13? Tyrion, when he married Tysha.

You know who else fits this description? LF, when he was 15 and thought it was a good idea to have a duel with Brandon Stark.

[Daidalos]

No, they're not valid because you're yet to say anything beyond you don't like her because you don't find her interesting. She's in a situation that you don't like and you don't like how she handles it, essentially. As others have pointed out, she handles it in the best possible manner she could have, but you still don't like her or find her interesting. This is all fine and well, but there's nothing "valid" about such reasoning beyond hey, your opinion!

I have provided numerous reasons for why I don't like Sansa. She isn't an agent and she is mostly a passive participant in other people's plots; for this reason she isn't as exciting as other characters. She doesn't have any exceptional skill, the application of which might be interesting to behold. Beyond this, I don't think her perspective is very thought-provoking, or her speech eloquent. But more importantly, it isn't my burden to find any character interesting: my default state is to find no character interesting. Thus far Sansa has failed to change my initial impression.

I really question how much you wish this were otherwise. You seem to be completely fascinated with LF's characterisation despite his stated reprehensible practice of abusing and exploiting women. If this is the skill you admire then it's easy to see why you might find it hard to appreciate Sansa.

Well, I think there is more to LF than his ability to abuse and exploit women. Even if it was that reprehensible practice that I most admired about him--a shamelessly unfair and unwarranted characterisation, by the way--it would not be the only skill or characteristic that could find it in myself to admire in a fictional character. In the earlier books, I admired Tyrion's wit and eloquence (less so as the series progressed); I admired Tywin's iron resolve and Missandei's startling intelligence and wisdom for someone so young; Brienne's dedication; Jaime's dawning decency (not quite redeeming, but interesting); Daenerys's compassion (this soured too as the series progressed); and Jorah's pragmatic counsel, just as I was disturbed by his obsessions. In this most subjective of algebras, I never found myself liking Sansa.

It matters because he's the one who set the terms for her exploitation and since he has "freed" her, he's been on a mission to tighten those screws. LF has done "nothing" to help Sansa. Do you know why she makes the distinction between Sansa and Alayne in AFFC when it comes to Littlefinger? Because she realises that Alayne was always a plot in LF's plans, he freed Sansa to create Alayne. But Sansa knows the ones who actually helped her out during that time and it was not LF.

Yes, Littlefinger set the terms and he seems to want to manipulate Sansa into feeling affection, fatherly or otherwise, towards him. And it could be argued whether he helps her or not, but I still don't see the relevance to Sansa's handling of the situation. Regardless of who engineered the circumstances, we would still judge her actions on their own merits.

Again, this equates to saying: I don't like Sansa because I don't like Sansa.

No, it doesn't. I simply say this: the fact that a character undertakes sensible actions does not oblige me to like that character. I consider it to be a reasonable reply. You seem dead set on interpreting everything I say in the most uncharitable way, and that does not give me the impression that you are interested in conducting an honest discussion.

I haven't seen you making that distinction in your effusive praise for LF. Personally, I don't think skill can be separated from its application. Actions have consequences and all that. And this is something Sansa herself will have to be

mindful of, particularly when it comes to Sweetrobin.

Haven't I said on numerous occasions that I consider Littlefinger to be immoral? If villains can be said to exist in ASOIAF, he is one of them. However, villains can still be stylish, and they can impress the audience with their talents just as they can horrify with their actions. Satan in Paradise Lost is a villain and a great character, as is Mozart's Don Giovanni, or Shakespeare's Iago.

Becoming a killer does not make you an agent. Initially Arya was doing what she had to survive, as was Sansa, but for Sansa to kill anyone in KL would have been equivalent to signing her own death warrant. Furthermore, becoming an agent of one's destiny is near to impossible when one is imprisoned or on the run. Both girls are now undergoing "training" presumably designed to give them more power and agency, but there are moral and ethical standards which they are in danger of transgressing. Both of them need to realise that their mentors might only be interested in creating them in their own images for further exploitation. Ultimately, playing the game whilst keeping one's self worth and identity are absolutely crucial to future empowerment.

I agree with you that it is difficult to become an "agent of one's desity" under adverse conditions, and it might be more reasonable to respond with caution and passivity, as Sansa does. But, again I reiterate, that does not oblige me to like her as a character. Maybe the author made it difficult for me to like a certain character, but that doesn't automatically compel my interest.

And I've neglected to this in the heat of the debate, but welcome to the board Daidalos.

Thank you.

[brashcandy]

I have provided numerous reasons for why I don't like Sansa. She isn't an agent and she is mostly a passive participant in other people's plots; for this reason she isn't as exciting as other characters. She doesn't have any exceptional skill, the application of which might be interesting to behold. Beyond this, I don't think her perspective is very thought-provoking, or her speech eloquent. But more importantly, it isn't my burden to find any character interesting: my default state is to find no character interesting. Thus far Sansa has failed to change my initial impression.

She isn't an agent because she's a prisoner. However, she's never a total victim of her circumstances. She still fights back when possible, thereby ensuring herself a measure of dignity and integrity in an awful situation. She may not have designed the plot to get herself out of KL, but without her determination to escape the Lannisters it would have all come to naught. My problem with your argument is that it insists on rendering Sansa as merely a piece with no discernible skills or talents. I think this is a gross mischaracterization which has already been debunked by others and myself. If you cannot find her interesting, so be it.

Well, I think there is more to LF than his ability to abuse and exploit women. Even if it was that reprehensible practice that I most admired about him--a shamelessly unfair and unwarranted characterisation, by the way--it would not be the only skill or characteristic that could find it in myself to admire in a fictional character. In the earlier books, I admired Tyrion's wit and eloquence (less so as the series progressed); I admired Tywin's iron resolve and Missandei's startling intelligence and wisdom for someone so young; Brienne's dedication; Jaime's dawning decency (not quite redeeming, but interesting); Daenerys's compassion (this soured too as the series progressed); and Jorah's pragmatic counsel, just as I was disturbed by his obsessions. In this most subjective of algebras, I never found myself liking Sansa.

Of course there's more to every character, and we can like certain aspects of characters and dislike them for other reasons. However, you have been waxing all along about LF's skill and talents. One of the man's principal skills is in exploiting others for profit - both in his personal and professional life. This is not something I find admirable or worthy of respect.

Yes, Littlefinger set the terms and he seems to want to manipulate Sansa into feeling affection, fatherly or otherwise, towards him. And it could be argued whether he helps her or not, but I still don't see the relevance to Sansa's handling of the situation. Regardless of who engineered the circumstances, we would still judge her actions on their own merits.

But that's precisely what you're failing to do. You're asserting that Sansa was rescued from KL like a damsel in distress, whilst you credit LF with being talented and intelligent and skillful. I think this is the height of hypocrisy, because LF is the one who engineered Sansa's suffering, so his "freeing" her from that situation was simply to satisfy his own selfish desires. If we are judging Sansa on her own merits during that time, then we have to look at how she made the agreement with the Tyrells to marry Willas, and decided that she would no longer be dependent on Dontos' (aka LF's) arrangement. But do you know who thwarted that because they wanted to have her at their mercy?

No, it doesn't. I simply say this: the fact that a character undertakes sensible actions does not oblige me to like that character. I consider it to be a reasonable reply. You seem dead set on interpreting everything I say in the most uncharitable way, and that does not give me the impression that you are interested in conducting an honest discussion.

And you seem dead set on accusing me of being uncharitable. I think I've been plenty charitable and patient, but when called upon to back up your arguments about how other characters have coped with unfortunate, unforseen circumstances, you fall short. If you don't like a character for undertaking sensible actions then that is really up to you. I would simply appreciate that if you're going to make an accusation concerning Sansa's character that you be able to back it up with textual evidence.

[Kittykatknits]

Interestingly, this one gesture of acceptance seems to have, I don't know, given him either some hope, or made him a bit delusional, or wishing for more acceptance, since we know he said Robb needed him and would make him a lordling if he had the wits of a toad. Yet earlier in AGOT he rejected all that when Joffrey made him a Kingsguard, and it was not the lack of being a knight he brought up first, either.

Only after this does he mention the lack of knightly vows.

A lot of the nobility seems pre-occupied with landgrabs, alliances and power games. Considering how long he'd been in Lannister service and that he was always around the King even before being put on the Kingsguard, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they'd bestow some land on him, yet he never seems to jockey for position at all, unlike say, Bronn; instead of seems almost actively disdainful of it.

I never thought of him as actively rejecting the idea of lands, home, or wife. Rather, I saw it as a realization that those would never be his as evidenced by the long pause. I can see where you are coming from here though. But, I agree that he does seem actively disdainful of it, or at least the scheming that Bronn and others partake in.

Or perhaps people subconsciously pick up on the strange intimacy between them and judges it as "infatuation"? Rereading Sansa's ACOK chapters really hit home that Sandor is often touching her in one way of another, whether it's grabbing her, getting her back up on the horse during the riot, or cupping her jaw in the chapter when he's drunk and escorts her back past Ser Boros. Especially the last example is almost overly intimate since he first makes inappropriate comments about her body, tells her he'll have a song from her one day, then puts his hand under her cheek lifting her chin and calls her "pretty thing and such a bad liar".*** I wonder if this conflicting behaviour is why people think it will be a "burn hot, cool fast" thing?

*** disregarding their conversation here and just looking at body language, I got the impression he was going to kiss her, actually.

I just did a re-read of their conversations on the rooftop and the serpentine steps and you have me really curious now. What gave you the impression he was going to, or at least wanted to, kiss her? What did I miss?

And, I liked almost all of your posts today. Finally ran out of upvotes so couldn't get all of them.

With Tyrion and Tywin (and others) gone, they now lack any type of strategic thinker or player and I would be surprised if whoever came after them held Sandor to any type of oathbreaking. Which I also wonder - he did he officially take the Kingsguard oaths? Or did he just say '...why not?' and take the cloak?

If he took formal kingsguard oaths, he did so off screen. In the long run, I have a feeling the events at Saltpans are going to be more of a problem for him than leaving the kingsguard. When Jaime reflects on him in AFFC, the desertion just doesn't seem to be an issue compared to his thoughts on what Sandor is supposedly doing in the Riverlands.

I've always thought that the Elder Brother hangs in the balance between the type displayed by Septon Meribald vs the fanatical High Septon back in KL. We don't as yet have a lot of info about the EB, but I do think he's not totally removed from the political side of the Faith as he might have intimated to Brienne. But this is veering into crackpot theorising :) Suffice to say, I don't think Martin has simply placed Sandor on the QI so that he can benefit from some rehabilitation. Either it's going to connect him to Sansa or to Brienne and Jaime, or he's going to be involved in some aspect of the religious turmoil building in Westeros.

I think he is in the middle as you say. Our only observation of EB is through Brienne who was on the QI with a very specific purpose. His time with Brienne was targeted to get her to leave Sandor alone and to abandon her quest. So, I don't think he ever lied to her but I took everything he said with a grain of salt. We already know that she missed what the EB was trying to say when he claimed the Hound was dead. I believe it is possible that other parts of their conversation or other actions of his may have given more insight in to the EB but that Brienne did not pick up on it. I am also convinced that we will see the EB and QI again before the series is done.

And like Lyanna Stark, I liked as many of your posts as I could today until I ran out of upvotes. Really great stuff!

[Daidalos]

She isn't an agent because she's a prisoner. However, she's never a total victim of her circumstances. She still fights back when possible, thereby ensuring herself a measure of dignity and integrity in an awful situation. She may not have designed the plot to get herself out of KL, but without her determination to escape the Lannisters it would have all come to naught. My problem with your argument is that it insists on rendering Sansa as merely a piece with no discernible skills or talents. I think this is a gross mischaracterization which has already been debunked by others and myself. If you cannot find her interesting, so be it.

It seems to me that you want to credit Sansa with more agency than she is due, particularly in the escape from King's Landing. She played a role, to be sure, but it was decidedly minor. Regarding her skills, what I did say was this:

She can be said to be decent at playing the courtesy game, something which Tyrion remarks upon, and she is getting better at recognizing a plot if she knows that there was a plot, but this does not amount to the talent necessary to make another player of Littlefinger's calibre.

I did slight Sansa a bit, I will admit. She is better than decent at the courtesy game, and I did acknowledge in my reply to Lady Kraken's post that maybe her potential was greater than I previously suggested. However, I maintain that what we have seen so far rises at most to the level of glimmers of possible potential.

Of course there's more to every character, and we can like certain aspects of characters and dislike them for other reasons. However, you have been waxing all along about LF's skill and talents. One of the man's principal skills is in exploiting others for profit - both in his personal and professional life. This is not something I find admirable or worthy of respect.

But that's precisely what you're failing to do. You're asserting that Sansa was rescued from KL like a damsel in distress, whilst you credit LF with being talented and intelligent and skillful. I think this is the height of hypocrisy, because LF is the one who engineered Sansa's suffering, so his "freeing" her from that situation was simply to satisfy his own selfish desires. If we are judging Sansa on her own merits during that time, then we have to look at how she made the agreement with the Tyrells to marry Willas, and decided that she would no longer be dependent on Dontos' (aka LF's) arrangement. But do you know who thwarted that because they wanted to have her at their mercy?

So what if his motives were simply to satisfy his own selfish desires? Is it impossible to employ one's talent, intelligence and skill in pursuit of selfish desires? I have never said that LF's rescue (or whatever you want to call it) of Sansa was was unselfish. I'm not sure if anything LF does is unselfish. Again, I don't see what hypocrisy I have committed.

As for Sansa's actions. Yes, she agreed to the Tyrell proposal. There was a degree of danger involved, but not extreme. Based on Sansa's perceptions, trusting the Tyrells' judgment over Dontos's probably was reasonable, seeing as Dontos's behaviour didn't inspire much confidence. So, her decision here was to agree to a proposal from another party. I won't say it was risk-free, but I wouldn't make more of it than that.

And you seem dead set on accusing me of being uncharitable. I think I've been plenty charitable and patient, but when called upon to back up your arguments about how other characters have coped with unfortunate, unforseen circumstances, you fall short. If you don't like a character for undertaking sensible actions then that is really up to you. I would simply appreciate that if you're going to make an accusation concerning Sansa's character that you be able to back it up with textual evidence.

Again, you misread me! I didn't say that " don't like a character for undertaking sensible actions." You will excuse me, but this is a strawman argument. When I write "the fact that a character undertakes sensible actions does not oblige me to like that character" that doesn't mean I dislike characters who undertake sensible actions! What it means is that sensible actions alone do not a likable character make. In the same vein, I could have said that the fact that a character isn't a murderer isn't enough to make me like that character. It was simply a response to the people who seemed to suggest that Sansa's actions were reasonable, and therefore one should like her. For me, and I suspect for many others, it is not enough that a character behaves reasonably in a certain situation to like that character; much more is required. In this instance, you are indeed being uncharitable.

As to situations where other characters have coped with unforeseen circumstances, I will concede that Arya's coping mechanisms aren't admirable and shouldn't be emulated. One example of a character who copes admirably with SOME unforeseen circumstances is Tyrion, and I'm thinking principally of his incarceration in the Eyrie. However, I will actually concede this point as well. I can't point to other characters whose conduct under stress is in any way better than Sansa's. I will note that my argument did not rest on this point.

My "accusations" against Sansa were that she lacked agency and that she was largely unremarkable. The author may have placed her in a situation that severely restricted her options, but that doesn't change my perspective. An author can create a character that is stupid, cruel, inarticulate, and incarcerated: all of them formidable obstacles to reader appreciation--I'm like to dislike that character, but it would be strange if fans of that character would say that I'm unfair, considering the restrictions the author placed on the character. Sansa isn't stupid and she isn't entirely without abilities, but what I accused her of was that her gifts, such as they are, aren't remarkable enough to be interesting to me. What I assert is a lack of distinction, something which I obviously can't prove, but others have forwarded positive arguments in favour of Sansa's worth. And I don't fully agree with those arguments.

[jons nissa]

But that's precisely what you're failing to do. You're asserting that Sansa was rescued from KL like a damsel in distress, whilst you credit LF with being talented and intelligent and skillful. I think this is the height of hypocrisy, because LF is the one who engineered Sansa's suffering, so his "freeing" her from that situation was simply to satisfy his own selfish desires. If we are judging Sansa on her own merits during that time, then we have to look at how she made the agreement with the Tyrells to marry Willas, and decided that she would no longer be dependent on Dontos' (aka LF's) arrangement. But do you know who thwarted that because they wanted to have her at their mercy?

but sansa's suffering in king's landing wasn't engineered by littlefinger. it was engineered by her, albeit unknowingly. it is ironically when she shows some agency in trying to get what she wants, which is to remain in king's landing with her true love, that she becomes a prisoner and her suffering begins. when she is offered the marriage with willas she accepts but that is not so she can be independent of dontos. it's because she sees it as a chance to fulfill her fantasy. and again, it's because of her own actions (telling dontos no, i'm good. i'm marrying someone else) that she is put in a position to be completely dependent on littlefinger. it is at this point that littlefinger has her where he wants her. ignoring sansa's agency because her decisions backfire is doing her a disservice.

[Valkyrja]

but sansa's suffering in king's landing wasn't engineered by littlefinger. it was engineered by her, albeit unknowingly. it is ironically when she shows some agency in trying to get what she wants, which is to remain in king's landing with her true love, that she becomes a prisoner and her suffering begins. when she is offered the marriage with willas she accepts but that is not so she can be independent of dontos. it's because she sees it as a chance to fulfill her fantasy. and again, it's because of her own actions (telling dontos no, i'm good. i'm marrying someone else) that she is put in a position to be completely dependent on littlefinger. it is at this point that littlefinger has her where he wants her. ignoring sansa's agency because her decisions backfire is doing her a disservice.

I am of the opinion that Sansa is NOT to blame for all the sufferings that befell her in KL after Ned's death. Going to Cersei was indeed a mistake (though an uneducated one on Sansa's part.....she did not know any better because Ned failed to tell Sansa *why* he wanted her to leave KL). Going to Cersei did not kill her father. Even though it's not been spelled out, I think it hinted that Joffrey, despite being the despicable bastard that he is, was going to spare Ned and send him to the Wall, but LF may have convinced him otherwise. All the way back then, LF was plotting to marry Sansa for himself. The Cersei chapter in ADwD confirms that LF has asked Cersei to marry Sansa even before Ned was beheaded. How sinister can you get, LF!!! :ack:

[jons nissa]

I am of the opinion that Sansa is NOT to blame for all the sufferings that befell her in KL. Going to Cersei did not kill her father. Even though it's not been spelled out, I think it hinted that Joffrey was going to spare Ned and send him to the Wall, but LF may have convinced him otherwise. All the way back then, LF was plotting to marry Sansa for himself. The Cersei chapter in ADwD confirms that LF has asked Cersei to marry Sansa even before Ned was beheaded. How sinister can you get, LF!!! :ack:

who said anything aobut killing her father? her going to cersei prevented her and arya from leaving king's landing. at least that's what grrm said.

[Caro99]

Brash and Lyanna, keep up the GREAT work, you’re defending Sansa beautifully and accurately. :agree: with everything you've both said!

On another topic that has sort of been talked about here lately, I hope that George gave us the marriage to Tyrion so that if sansa’s fate is to marry for politics rather than love, she can at least now choose her own husband, rather than being forced into marrying one she can never come to understand.

About Sandor, someone said before that maybe his temper and unsolved traumatic youth issued are barriers for his relationship with sansa to evolve, but given time I am sure her love (however corny it sounds) could break those barriers. AGoT and ACoK events happen around what- a year? Well, in that year sansa managed to have one way or another a deep effect on sandor’s temper which has been seen to last through his travels with arya and possibly with his say in QI where his rage will be soothe. So this barriers I think can be overcome. ;)

Oh & Lyanna, I loved this: “The whole point of Sansa's storyline is not that she ought to be a player, it's to demonstrate both how she comes to realise how much of a pawn she is, that she learns enough to extricate herself from whatever plot she is stuck in and eventually to build a future of her own. It's also meant to give us political background of what is going on in Westeros, but if you believe that Sansa is disappointing as a character, you do, as stated, have the wrong expectations of what she is meant to be. The interesting facet of Sansa's fascination with Sandor is that it is her own choice first and foremost. It is not an arranged match, it's not something anyone has pushed her into, it's not something anyone else has planted in her head. It's Sansa's own choice.”

& this: “Sandor has issues, but people often talk about him as if he was deranged. Which he clearly isn't. He is overly cynical, has unresolved emotional issues and as of ACOK a rather nihilistic outlook on the world, but so far he has not really shown any signs of being a given abuser or wifebeater, which some seem to think. In fact, both Tyrion and Littlefinger are far scarier people in this regard. Sandor has gone out of his way and above and beyond anything he needed to do selfless acts for Sansa. What is more, as Brashcandy has already pointed out, in the text they remember each other with longing and fondness...” I agree. Sandor is not his brother.

Lady, you’re right. Sansa did expect others to do the right thing once, a trait that reminds me of her resemblance to Ned, but since her father is now gone whereas Sansa is not only still in the game, but now becoming a player rather than a pawn, I think she’s one of those characters who are meant to live through the series. Her ironic path through the books is both sad and believable, but at least we aren’t seeing her downfall like we are with cersei, and maybe even LF, who can for all we know become Sansa’s pawn one day. :dunno:

& Lady Kraken, yes, Sansa is starting to flirt with men and to realize the effect she has on LF. & while I won’t mind reading about Alayne in the WoW flirting with Harry the heir or someone else, I think I am okay with this since I can’t see her become a cersei or margaery version 2, (flirting ruthlessly without feelings like cersei and the kettleblacks, nor advancing politically like LF by sleeping with people she finds disgusting. Sansa has kept her principles despite everything she’s gone through. That I think requires gumption! :smug: :)

[brashcandy]

It seems to me that you want to credit Sansa with more agency than she is due, particularly in the escape from King's Landing. She played a role, to be sure, but it was decidedly minor. Regarding her skills, what I did say was this.

What I said to you earlier was that it was impossible for Sansa to escape the Lannisters on her own without outside help. Whether that help came from LF, the Tyrells or Sandor, the point is that she needed help. How would she have escaped otherwise? However, having said the obvious (which clearly isn't obvious to you), it still does not mean that Sansa was just sitting back waiting to be rescued. There was definitely "action" on her part, even if it's hard to recognize on a first reading. Deciding to trust the Tyrells and agreeing to the Willas match, forming a relationship with Sandor - the man everyone fears, deciding to continue the meetings with Dontos to escape the city etc etc. These were important decisions and actions that enabled Sansa to have options for her liberation. And it should be noted that the Lannisters only know about one plot, and LF only knows about one as well. The offer by Sandor - facilitated by her compassion and empathy - remains unknown by everyone.

As for Sansa's actions. Yes, she agreed to the Tyrell proposal. There was a degree of danger involved, but not extreme. Based on Sansa's perceptions, trusting the Tyrells' judgment over Dontos's probably was reasonable, seeing as Dontos's behaviour didn't inspire much confidence. So, her decision here was to agree to a proposal from another party. I won't say it was risk-free, but I wouldn't make more of it than that.

Her decision was a lot more than you've given her credit for. Sansa was choosing to put her trust in the family that was marrying into the Lannisters. Not only that, but she was willing to take a chance on a man she had never seen or personally engaged with at all. There was a HUGE amount of danger involved as well. She was a prisoner of the Lannisters, at Joffrey's mercy, and there she was planning on escaping to marry a Tyrell. Again, it makes no matter that Sansa did not design the plot herself. How could she reasonably be expected to do this. Did it make her a pawn? Yes, but so what? At that point in time the only alternative to being a pawn was to be dead.

My "accusations" against Sansa were that she lacked agency and that she was largely unremarkable. The author may have placed her in a situation that severely restricted her options, but that doesn't change my perspective.

Then with all due respect, your perspective is based on your own prejudices. If an author has placed a character in a situation where they have little to no agency, but your critique of that character is that they lacked agency, then I'm at a loss. Sansa did the best she had with what she had. Her weapons during that period were not daggers and swords, but rather self-control, empathy and quiet endurance. She changed a lot of previously held perceptions and ideals, thereby developing from the naive girl she once was into a more realistic and enlightened character.

but sansa's suffering in king's landing wasn't engineered by littlefinger. it was engineered by her, albeit unknowingly. it is ironically when she shows some agency in trying to get what she wants, which is to remain in king's landing with her true love, that she becomes a prisoner and her suffering begins. when she is offered the marriage with willas she accepts but that is not so she can be independent of dontos. it's because she sees it as a chance to fulfill her fantasy. and again, it's because of her own actions (telling dontos no, i'm good. i'm marrying someone else) that she is put in a position to be completely dependent on littlefinger. it is at this point that littlefinger has her where he wants her. ignoring sansa's agency because her decisions backfire is doing her a disservice.

1. Sansa did not engineer her own suffering.

2. Sansa is not trying to fulfil a fantasy with Willas. I would suggest rereading her thoughts during that period again. She is resigned to making the best of the match even though Willas is crippled and might be as unattractive as his father. She chooses the Tyrell match because it was wiser than depending on Dontos' plan which might have collapsed at any moment.

3. Sansa's telling Dontos about her plan to marry Willas was probably not how LF found out. Most likely, the Tyrells had already confided their plans in LF. It's not apparent on a first reading, but the in-depth re-read we did brought this to light.

4. Again, Sansa's going to Cersei at the most prevented her and Arya from escaping the city, but even that is debatable. She made a choice to go to Cersei yes, but holding her responsible for what happens afterwards is ridiculously unfair.

[Daidalos]

What I said to you earlier was that it was impossible for Sansa to escape the Lannisters on her own without outside help. Whether that help came from LF, the Tyrells or Sandor, the point is that she needed help. How would she have escaped otherwise? However, having said the obvious (which clearly isn't obvious to you), it still does not mean that Sansa was just sitting back waiting to be rescued. There was definitely "action" on her part, even if it's hard to recognize on a first reading. Deciding to trust the Tyrells and agreeing to the Willas match, forming a relationship with Sandor - the man everyone fears, deciding to continue the meetings with Dontos to escape the city etc etc. These were important decisions and actions that enabled Sansa to have options for her liberation. And it's should be noted that the Lannisters only know about one, and LF only knows about one as well. The offer by Sandor - facilitated by her compassion and empathy - remains unknown by everyone.

We're just going back and forth on this point. I don't think her actions were that significant, you do. I will admit that it was cathartic for me when Sansa agreed to the Tyrell proposal, and before that her telling the truth about Joffrey. But I think you exaggerate the danger.

Her decision was a lot more than you've given her credit for. Sansa was choosing to put her trust in the family that was marrying into the Lannisters. Not only that, but she was willing to take a chance on a man she had never seen or personally engaged with at all. There was a HUGE amount of danger involved as well. She was a prisoner of the Lannisters, at Joffrey's mercy, and there she was planning on escaping to marry a Tyrell. Again, it makes no matter that Sansa did not design the plot herself. How could she reasonably be expected to do this. Did it make her a pawn? Yes, but so what? At that point in time the only alternative to being a pawn was to be dead.

"Planning on escaping to marry a Tyrell" I think is an exaggeration. She agreed to a plan that other characters proposed. And it wouldn't be so much an escape as the Tyrells requesting that she accompany them to Highgarden. I am willing to say that it was brave to trust them, but not that much. With the information at her disposal, I would say that it was more of a rational rather than courageous decision. It is likely that the Tyrells are being sincere, since they can only gain from this arrangement, and however poor a husband Willas might prove to be and however miserable life in Highgarden might turn out, it would likely be an improvement over her current situation. It was not a costless decision, and for that she deserves credit, but not as much as you seem willing to accord her.

Then with all due respect, your perspective is based on your own prejudices. If an author has placed a character in a situation where they have little to no agency, but your critique of that character is that they lacked agency, then I'm at a loss. Sansa did the best she had with what she had. Her weapons during that period were not daggers and swords, but rather self-control, empathy and quiet endurance. She changed a lot of a previously held perceptions and ideals, thereby developing from the naive girl she once was into a more realistic and enlightened character.

I hold the same "prejudices" for other works of fiction. Generally, I like intelligent characters, and characters that do take charge and seek to change their circumstances; I like funny characters, charismatic and outgoing characters; and if they are villains, I like ruthless and cunning characters. I don't think I'm unique in this regard. I hold a general set of likes and dislikes that determine whether I like a character or not, but it's not set in stone and certain events in the plot might conspire to change my perceptions. This was the case with Tyrion: initially, I loved him, but by the time I finished ADWD, I had grown to dislike him: a dislike that colours my perceptions when I reread his earlier chapters.

Are you going to say that you do not have literary "prejudices," be they negative or positive? Take one of the characters you dislike. Is your dislike of that character at all informed by your general "prejudices"?

EDITED TO ADD: Actually, I will say one thing that made me like Sansa more, in hindsight. At first, I thought it was petty of her not to kneel for Tyrion's benefit. It wasn't much to ask, surely. Tyrion didn't ask for this; why humiliate him? He has only helped you. But I have changed my mind completely on that score. Tyrion might not have appeared to be that awful to Sansa at the time, but the marriage was still forced upon her, and it snatched away her avenue of escape from the Lannisters. Why should Tyrion expect Sansa to make things easier for him, considering how much harder they were for her?

[brashcandy]

Kittykatknits:

I just did a re-read of their conversations on the rooftop and the serpentine steps and you have me really curious now. What gave you the impression he was going to, or at least wanted to, kiss her? What did I miss?

I think it's really easy to miss a lot of the suggestive body language which GRRM has put into their relationship simply because we're focused on what they're both saying. Added to this, I've found it instructive to re-read their conversations with an eye for studying what isn't said. Either that, or I'm suffering from a severe case of Sansan withdrawal, so everyone must bear that in mind :P With regard to the conversation on the serpentine steps, I think Lyanna was speaking of when he holds her chin and raises her head up. He does it to make his point about her looking at him, but taking the gesture by itself, it reads like the action of someone preparing for a kiss.

@Daidalos, I can see we are going to get nowhere in this argument, so I'm not going to continue as you noted with the back and forth. You have your opinion of Sansa, and it's simply not one that I share. I think that's all I can say about now.

[jons nissa]

2. Sansa is not trying to fulfil a fantasy with Willas. I would suggest rereading her thoughts during that period again. She is resigned to making the best of the match even though Willas is crippled and might be as unattractive as his father. She chooses the Tyrell match because it was wiser than depending on Dontos' plan which might have collapsed at any moment.

“Would you like that, Sansa?” asked Margaery. “I’ve never had a sister, only brothers. Oh, please say yes, please say that you will consent to marry my brother.”

The words came tumbling out of her. “Yes. I will. I would like that more than anything. To wed Ser Loras, to love him…”

“

Loras?

” Lady Olenna sounded annoyed. “Don’t be foolish, child. Kingsguard never wed. Didn’t they teach you anything in Winterfell? We were speaking of my grandson Willas. He is a bit old for you, to be sure, but a dear boy for all that. Not the least bit oafish, and heir to Highgarden besides.”

Sansa felt dizzy; one instant her head was full of dreams of Loras, and the next they had all been snatched away.

Willas? Willas?

“I,” she said stupidly.

Courtesy is a lady’s armor. You must not offend them, be careful what you say

. “I do not know Ser Willas. I have never had the pleasure, my lady. Is he… is he as great a knight as his brothers?”

Sometimes she would whisper his name into her pillow just to hear the sound of it. “Willas, Willas, Willas.” Willas was as good a name as Loras, she supposed. They even sounded the same, a little. What did it matter about his leg? Willas would be Lord of Highgarden and she would be his lady.

She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge.

If I give him sons, he may come to love me

. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras.

And to hate Lannisters, too

. In Sansa’s dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

She could never hold a picture of Willas long in her head, though; her imaginings kept turning him back into Ser Loras, young and graceful and beautiful.

You must not think of him like that

, she told herself.

Or else he may see the disappointment in your eyes when you meet, and how could he marry you then, knowing it was his brother you loved?

Willas Tyrell was twice her age, she reminded herself constantly, and lame as well, and perhaps even plump and red-faced like his father. But comely or no, he might be the only champion she would ever have.

she is still dreaming of beautiful loras and is really trying to create something very much like that with willas. at least she is a bit more realistic about it though. a bit. she ignores the fact that he is unknown to her and doesn't even try to contemplate what life with someone who is lame will be. i will concede that at her age, it is probably hard to do but given how her time with joffrey was so horrific, the fact that she doesn't hesitate for one second to think about any possibility of something bad happening says she's still expecting everything to be a dream. she is very much like ned here.

3. Sansa's telling Dontos about her plan to marry Willas was probably not how LF found out. Most likely, the Tyrells had already confided their plans in LF. It's not apparent on a first reading, but the in-depth re-read we did brought this to light.

4. Again, Sansa's going to Cersei at the most prevented her and Arya from escaping the city, but even that is debatable. She made a choice to go to Cersei yes, but holding her responsible for what happens afterwards is ridiculously unfair.

this is pure speculation. littlefinger owns up to all of the seeds he plants with the tyrells and marriage to willas is not one of them.

When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery’s hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey’s nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure… whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell’s servants. That is how the game is played.

“I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I

suggested

it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell’s army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

“Mace Tyrell actually thought it was his own idea to make Ser Loras’s inclusion in the Kingsguard part of the marriage contract. Who better to protect his daughter than her splendid knightly brother? And it relieved him of the difficult task of trying to find lands and a bride for a third son, never easy, and doubly difficult in Ser Loras’s case.

“Be that as it may. Lady Olenna was not about to let Joff harm her precious darling granddaughter, but unlike her son she also realized that under all his flowers and finery, Ser Loras is as hot-tempered as Jaime Lannister. Toss Joffrey, Margaery, and Loras in a pot, and you’ve got the makings for kingslayer stew. The old woman understood something else as well. Her son was determined to make Margaery a queen, and for that he needed a king… but he did not need

Joffrey

. We shall have another wedding soon, wait and see. Margaery will marry Tommen.

no discussion about willas or sansa. you can only assume littlefinger is not disclosing this information but it is only an assumption.

4. Again, Sansa's going to Cersei at the most prevented her and Arya from escaping the city, but even that is debatable. She made a choice to go to Cersei yes, but holding her responsible for what happens afterwards is ridiculously unfair.

http://www.westeros..../Month/1999/04/

April 10, 1999

Regarding Sansa

Submitted By: Kay-Arne Hansen

Your question re Sansa...

The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall.

Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her.

She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

please do not tell me to re read the text. it is awfully presumptuous of you.

[Grail King]

well I see nothings changed while wife and I went and saw Snow White and the Huntsman, by the way Kristen Stewart has no emotions.

OK on topic.

@ Jon's Nissa

who said anything aobut killing her father? her going to cersei prevented her and arya from leaving king's landing. at least that's what grrm said.

I saw what he said, but if that was true he did not put it in the books, the only thing Cersei really got was the time namely noonish, Cersei actually had the boat filled with her soldiers as Arya discovered before hand, So when Cersei found the time line she acted, Sansa And Arya would have been captured no matter what.

ETA: And if Sansa had all that info than Ned is more foolish then I thought, no way he give her all that info just no way.

[brashcandy]

please do not tell me to re read the text. it is awfully presumptuous of you.

Oh gods. It was a genuine suggestion, believe me. And I tend to think it was beneficial for you. If you actually read what you quoted above from the text, you will see that Sansa comes to terms with the reality of Willas Tyrell:

Willas Tyrell was twice her age, she reminded herself constantly, and lame as well, and perhaps even plump and red-faced like his father. But comely or no, he might be the only champion she would ever have.

It's blatant misrepresentation to claim that she's still holding on to the fantasy of Loras Tyrell. She imagines Loras because she has no idea what Willas looks like, and naturally inserts his brother here whom she has a major crush on.

And a significant part that you did not quote, but which is relevant to this discussion:

She wanted to look beautiful for Willas Tyrell. Even if Dontos is right, and it is Winterfell he wants and not me, he still may come to love me for myself.

Does this sound like a young girl with her head in the clouds, indulging in mindless fantasies?

To your next quotes by Littlefinger: why in the name of the seven would he tell her he knew anything about the Willas plot? He wants to appear as though he's always had her best interest at heart, not that he delberately schemed to keep her a prisoner in KL.

As for what Martin claims, it's not borne out in the text. Ned's telling Cersei about his plans, along with LF's machinations are what did the monumental damage that day. You're claiming that Sansa engineered her own downfall in KL and that's simply not so. Both Sansa and Arya are victims of the ruthless and ignorant adults around them, and it's high time Martin acknowledges that.

[Maroucia]

@ Daidalos

I have read in some of your posts of today, something that I found rather insulting.

You said that people that wanted Sansa and Sandor to reunite and to live some sort of “romance” together were perverted. The choosing of the word is pretty strong, I would say.

Not only by pretending that, you are directly attacking a quite large part of the ASOIAF fandom that have a right to be, and should be respected as any other part of that said fandom, but also, I find that it is a simplification of the situation and also a transposition of the fiction into reality that have no reason to be.

I’ll explain my last point here:

• I agree that a 13 years old girl is extremely young and should never be allowed to date much older men as Sandor, but we’re talking about ASOIAF here, where every fu***ng characters are irrationally young! Arya is killing people at 10, Robb has been chosen as king at 16, Jon has been chosen as lord commander of the wall at 16 or 17 (I don’t remember exactly), Jaime has become a member of the king’s guards at 16, and the list could go on and on.... After all that, why should we not accept that Sansa is now a “woman grown” at 13 (or even 14 now, I think) and ready to choose her potential love interest by herself, but still all the actions of the other characters that I mentioned above should not be questioned? Something is not working here. The whole series should be labelled as perverted then, instead of only the SanSan part of it.
  
• Also, if every details of what we like and enjoy in a book should be transposed and then interpreted as what we are in our real life, then it would mean that most of the ASOIAF fandom are a bunch of cold blooded killers same as the characters they like. I have to admit, I’m a fan of Tywin Lannister who is the worst father ever and killed directly and indirectly probably more than thousands of innocent people! Does that mean that in my everyday life, I’m not suited to be a mother and that I wish to kill all of my neighbours? If you enjoy Littlefingers’s plots, should I conclude because of that, that you are same as he is, manipulating everyone that surrounds you for your own advancement? If someone likes reading about Tyrion’s twisted relations with prostitutes, is it a confirmation that this very person is also using those kinds of services? And what about those readers who like Ramsay or Gregor? Are they serial killers in their every day life? Fiction is fiction and should not be transposed in the reality. You have the right to think that something in the books is perverted, but I don’t see how your judgment should then be tagged on the people who enjoy what you don’t. It’s a direct attack that have no place on a forum as the one we are on, a place where we should not judge one another, just discuss.
  

As a final word for my post, I would just like to add that I am not mad at you, I just wanted to make a point that a part of the fandom should not be set apart and then judged as perverted by others when, in the end, we are all fans of the same amazing story. We just enjoy different parts of it, in different ways and we should never attack each others in a direct way.

[Maroucia]

Either that, or I'm suffering from a severe case of Sansan withdrawal, so everyone must bear that in mind

You are not alone in that suffering, believe me!!! :bawl:

[romantic]

Sandor, under orders, killed a 13 yo (probably physically full-grown) male, accused of attacking the crown prince.

Jaime pushes an 8yo boy out a window 'for love'.

Littlefinger enslaves, tortures and sexually abuses (maybe not personally but allows it) an 11 yo girl and sells/gives her to 'pyscho' Ramsay. He probably arranges Ned's murder and definately Ser Dontos' murder plus how many others?

And Sandor is constantly called a violent killer but the others aren't??

Sansa is constantly accused of passivity but lives in a society in which her age, gender and status constrain her actions and choices. Arya, the 'active' sister, would likely have never survived KL or might have only 'survived' as a torturer's victim to amuse Joffrey and torment Sansa (who does survive KL).

I think Sansa's future will be interesting because most of her older relatives ( who might wish to control her life) are dead, except for the Blackfish, who as we know is in disgrace for having never married - so he might allow her much more freedom in who, or whether, she marries.