From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Miryana]

Does this sound like a young girl with her head in the clouds, indulging in mindless fantasies?

As the romantic follies of young Tyrion and Littlefinger were mentioned above, I'd also add that Sansa at 12 is being more mature than the grown master players Tyrion and Littlefinger who indulge in fantasies about her. Tyrion dreams that the pretty child abused by his family would become his loving wife and has no idea that the silly, naive little girl of his imagination is actually planning an escape, and Littlefinger foolishly revealed his hand/enduring Tully obsession by asking to marry the very highborn Sansa himself when she was 11 (that Cersei has been too blind to connect this to Sansa's disappearance doesn't make him clever not to be caught, just lucky) and had to kill Lysa sooner than planned because he kissed his dream girl in public. Sansa dreams of being happy with Willas, but she does so by coming to terms with his probably less than ideal athleticism and thinking that she's going to work to make him love her, which I see as a rather mature attitude - a bit like Cat's speech in the GOT season finale about building love slowly.

It's always fascinating that an 11 to 13-year-old abuse victim dealing with physical and sexual violence in an environment where she's constantly caught between different plans to take advantage of her gets so little credit for managing to hold on to her self-discipline and sense of identity well enough to take the best chance she had of escaping her abusers with her life. And even that was a risky, brave thing to do, and showed how she resisted giving in to the idea of life as a Lannister pawn. Littlefinger turned out to be the man behind the plan? Well, which major adult players in KL haven't been fooled by Littlefinger despite the advantage of their years and effective power bases? If Sansa had run on her own, without the help of a Yoren, would she have gotten away from the courtiers and past the city walls, or even those of the keep? What would have happened to a pretty girl alone if she did get past those walls? She wanted to escape, but she was also still willing to hope that she could escape without committing suicide in the process.

[brashcandy]

You are not alone in that suffering, believe me!!! :bawl:

It's awful Maroucia, just awful :(

[Lyanna Stark]

http://www.westeros..../Month/1999/04/

April 10, 1999

Regarding Sansa

Submitted By: Kay-Arne Hansen

Your question re Sansa...

The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall.

Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her.

She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

please do not tell me to re read the text. it is awfully presumptuous of you.

It's totally clear that Sansa gave Cersei useful information, but she did not trigger Cersei's decision to move against the Starks. That was The Ned's choice in passing Joffrey over for Stannis. It even says here clearly "all of which was useful to Cersei in planning her move". You could also go further and ask who is behind getting Ned to Kings Landing in the first place to find out Cersei supplanting Robert's children. And the answer would be "Littlefinger".

Regarding ages:

I agree that a 13 years old girl is extremely young and should never be allowed to date much older men as Sandor, but we’re talking about ASOIAF here, where every fu***ng characters are irrationally young! Arya is killing people at 10, Robb has been chosen as king at 16, Jon has been chosen as lord commander of the wall at 16 or 17 (I don’t remember exactly), Jaime has become a member of the king’s guards at 16, and the list could go on and on.... After all that, why should we not accept that Sansa is now a “woman grown” at 13 (or even 14 now, I think) and ready to choose her potential love interest by herself, but still all the actions of the other characters that I mentioned above should not be questioned?

Dany is married to Drogo at age 13 while he is more than twice her age and as of ADWD she still thinks back on him fondly. Robb and Jon at age 15-16 are also extremely young for their behaviour. Tyrion married Tysha at 13, Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar when she was 14-15 and he 23.

Are the ages fucked up in ASOIAF? Yes they are. Majorly. As Westeros is an imaginary place, you could argue that ages work differently, or it's possible to keep complaining about them being wrong.

Are you going to say that you do not have literary "prejudices," be they negative or positive? Take one of the characters you dislike. Is your dislike of that character at all informed by your general "prejudices"?

The danger of POV characters is that you are inside their heads. For instance, I love reading Jaime's chapters since his mental space is very pleasant, he's thoughtful, funny and witty, yet I still know what he is. Someone who doesn't care for his own children, and didn't think twice about tossing an 8 year old out a window. Few of the ASOIAF characters are straight forward or simple. Take Brienne, for instance, who is basically Sansa with a sword when the story starts. She's extremely singleminded and believes in what is right, but what is right? And if the society she is in and its definition of what is right does not coincide with her own conscience, then what is right?

The same can be said for Sandor. He is a well adjusted person within the constraints of Westerosi nobility, even without being a knight. He does what he is told by his liege Lord (or Lady in case of Cersei) without asking questions, even when that means cutting down 8 year old butcher's boys. Now later on we see him both acknowledge that he had to do it because the butcher's boy lay a hand on a prince of the blood, but also that he in this case disagrees with what society deemed right, and he regrets doing what he did.

[Lyanna Stark]

But I'm not saying Arya's behaviour is sensible! Have I held up Arya as a moral paragon in comparison to the Hound? I have not.

I'm willing to grant that Arya receives her share of help, perhaps even more than Sansa, but she is also more of an agent than Sansa is. This does not make her a better person, quite the opposite, but she is at least more willing to break her constraints than Sansa is.

However, I happily concede this point to you.

More interestingly, I think agency can be a difficult concept to grasp in a world like Westeros where women are normally restricted in the power they can wield. Characters like Dany, Asha, Arya and Brienne get away with acting differently because they take on male attributes and act, in effect, as men. They project force and power in a traditionally male fashion. Now Sansa, Cat, Cersei and Arianne are different, because they have to act within the constraints of a narrow role: the role of a Lady in Westeros. They can stretch this role to its limits, or do various things with it, but in the end it has a set of limitations they cannot avoid.

However, it is also a mistake to automatically assume that taking on male attributes means automatic agency. It is an easier way for readers to understand as it fits preconceived notions, to be sure.

I have no problems with admitting that Sandor is a human being and not a monster, and I have already said as much. Moreover, I will stipulate to his general competency, loyalty and skill. Where I differ with you is that I don't think this compensates for his negative qualities. He is a murderer, he has been abusive (and don't tell me words can't be abuse), and at times he can be unstable.

When he is abusive with words? You mean when he speaks to Sansa about Ned's death? Reading it again, you might notice Sansa in Kings Landing is extremely subdued, she guards what she says very, very carefully and she works almost like an automaton. With one exception. When Sandor is rude to her and goes off on one about Ned dying and how he surely liked killing (a nice bit of trying to justify his own nihilism) Sansa rages back at him. Ever since Joffrey had her beaten when showing her Ned's head, Sansa has not shown her temper once, yet for some reason she feels safe enough with Sandor to do so. She tells him straight to his face that he's awful, and rejects his worldview in a completely honest fashion. Sansa almost seems to relish the chance of finally being able to be rude back when she tells him he's going to end up in hell for his sins. An important thing to keep in mind is that this means Sansa firmly believes he won't punish her for being honest, for raging at him or for objecting to his views. She clearly sets him apart from the people she views as the ones out to hurt her. A very strong contrast to how she interacts with everyone else in Kings Landing (barring possibly Dontos).

I am against readers rhapsodizing their relationship without acknowledging some of its truly twisted aspects. I also contend the degree to which they "fancy" each other, considering the young age of Sansa. Are we really to think that a twelve year old's infatuation (if that) with her troubled captor during extremely stressful conditions is an indication that a future relationship between the two could be healthy?

Few people refuse to acknowledge that the relationship has aspects that are strange, are surprising or even troublesome. Which of course is one of the fascinations with it, since who cares about a relationship without conflict? It makes for extremely boring reading. The same goes for Brienne's and Jaime's relationship which has many similarities and often run in parallel to Sandor/Sansa, but with some parts inverted. While Sandor gets to represent the captors (albeit reluctantly) and the ugly brute to Sansa's captive, Brienne is the ugly captor and guardian of Jaime, yet she is also mentally AGOT Sansa with a sword. In both cases we see their interactions forming a bond and in both cases we can see that through interacting and through conflict, their worldview is challenged and they have to incorporate some of the other's reality into their own. They also come to appreciate the other person despite their differences. I could also add her as an interesting sidenote that the age difference between Brienne/Jaime and Sansa/Sandor is exactly the same.

I also strongly reject your notion that Sansa suffers from Stockholm syndrome or some sort of infatuation with Sandor. Quite the opposite. Her infatuation has been shown, and its target is Loras Tyrell. Sansa gets totally bedazzled by his good looks, feels she cannot walk straight or talk when he is near etc. showing all sorts of signs that she has a massive crush on him and that it affects her both mentally a physically. She dreams of running her hands over his chest and she admires his amazing good looks. Sansa feels nothing like this around the Hound, it has a completely different flavour.

When it comes to Sandor, she has few illusions. She has seen him drunk, rude, violent, smelling of vomit and covered in blood. She's shouted and raged at him, yet despite it all she sees him as someone who would never harm her and who will tell her a lot of useful truths about people. He's got her back, you might say. Which makes the corner stone for their relationship at least on Sansa's part trust instead of infatuation or passion.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think it's really easy to miss a lot of the suggestive body language which GRRM has put into their relationship simply because we're focused on what they're both saying. Added to this, I've found it instructive to re-read their conversations with an eye for studying what isn't said. Either that, or I'm suffering from a severe case of Sansan withdrawal, so everyone must bear that in mind :P With regard to the conversation on the serpentine steps, I think Lyanna was speaking of when he holds her chin and raises her head up. He does it to make his point about her looking at him, but taking the gesture by itself, it reads like the action of someone preparing for a kiss.

Yep, there is a point in looking at what isn't said (it's fun to do that with some other characters as well, like Cersei and Brienne for instance).

The passage I was thinking of was from Sansa II in ACOK where she just got the note from Dontos, armed herself with a knife and went to the Godswood during Tyrek's wedding feast rioting (leaving the drawbridge to Maegor's empty of Kingsguard). Then on the way back she runs into the Hound, he's really drunk and makes inappropriate comments about her body, tells her to sing him a song about brave knights and fair maidens, then takes her back to her chambers past Ser Boros (where he again lies for her to saver her from Ser Boros), tells her the story of his House and then at her door, this:

"A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face." He cupped her under the jaw, raising her chin, his fingers pinching her face painfully. "And that's more than little birds can do, isn't it? I never got my song."

"I...I know a song about Florian and Jonquil."

"Florian and Jonquil? A fool and his cunt. Spare me. But one day I'll have a song from you, whether you will it or no."

"I will sing it for you gladly."

Sandor Clegane snorted. "Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A dog can smell a lie, you know. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here....and every one better than you."

Personally I think it's pretty obvious that he's coming on to her here although she doesn't get it (note his body language throughout their interactions from when he grabs her to the last bit at her door, too). Actually, it's the only chapter when it's really overt (barring his "death" scene). And yes, he's totally inappropriate, crude and vulgar, i.e. the polar opposite of anything Sansa had in mind for a suitor.

[Woman of War]

After all that, why should we not accept that Sansa is now a “woman grown” at 13 (or even 14 now, I think) and ready to choose her potential love interest by herself,

i chose this quote as an example only

People who want Sansa "to make her own choices" should remember that she doesn't at all. It is Mr. Martin who makes her choices for her - as for any other character. Of course it is a sign for the quality of those books that people tend to identify to that extent with literary characters.

But, sorry, there is a lot of hypocrisy in that argument:

if she were a real person I would want her, like every reasonable person would, to freely choose her love interest. But those constantly advocating Sansa's own choice abuse it as camouflage to declare that only Sandor can be the choice of her own, every other "shipping" just has to be thoroughly wrong and can never be the one of Sansa's choice. It is the author who will give her a choice of her own that he, the author, has made for her according to his idea of where the story will go. Or the author might decide for a bittersweet ending for her, giving her a relationship where love one day may grow or not. Or he may kill her or turn her truly evil.

If readers finally rejoice about a happy choice "Sansa has made for herself" it is because Martin has made a decision they like. If they complain about a less happy and less convincing ending it may be the author made a choice in Sansa's place that specific readers dislike. So Sansa just HAS to be unhappy with it, it CANNOT be her own choice.... There is the hypocrisy: no way Sandor can be sold as the only possibility of "free choice" whereas everything else is just wrong, creepy or whatever. People are so very convinced to know Martin's protagonist Sansa better than the author himself. And this is not a merry christmas book, Martin is certainly not in the wishfulfilling business, not mine nor yours. So is is simply rather hypocrite to claim "her own free will" for someone's personal preference. Fandom should never lapse into fanatism.

I have to add that I personally find Sansor's infatuation with Sansa thoroughly interesting, it adds so much to that interesting character. I have posted this elsewhere and don't want to quote myself. I do not see it as genuinely pedophile, it is her innocence, her purity he wants to have a part of, his own lost childhood. This is what he is longing for in her, at the same time doing his best to destroy it, not only by being verbally abusive but by desiring and atacking her sexually. Wanting her purity and at the same time destroying it, by his sexuality and by his twisted attempts of telling her about life and killers, means he can never get what he wants without destroying it in the process - and the tragedy here is that he knows it. In the books he leaves without doing further harm. In HBO, and I love that interpretation, he leaves at exactly the moment where Sansa might have been willing to follow him. He leaves because she expresses her absolute trust in him, like she would have trusted her father, symbolized by the doll. And he knows that it will inevitably happen: He will betray her unconditional credit of trust, he is not able to be the one she right now sees in him. He knows that he himself will be a huge danger to her, will destroy everything that she sees in him and so he leaves TO PROTECT HER NOT ONLY FROM HIM BUT FROM HER OWN ILLUSIONS. Sansa is repeating here a mistake she made when she has begun her time in the books: She trusts too much and endangers herself. She had been partially over it but here she falls back. Sansa sees Sandor here the way he wants to be and not the way he is. He would do everything to preserve that image, the only way is leaving without her, because he himself knows about the danger he presents to her.

So this relationship is really complex but independently of what we want I do not think that this has ever been meant to be a fully fleshed lovestory, it is meant to be tragic and it will, I guess, end that way, him as her protector or as the one to destroy her, Martin decides.

And I have to agree with some posts of Daidalos: so far, at least in the books, Sansa is still someone to be pushed around and as long as readers still have to discuss who will come to save her next she is not as interesting as she could be to me. I do not expect her to lift a sword but I want her to have her own ideas about her future, to know where she is heading to, to know more than only what she does not want, sitting there and waiting for the next move of others, defending herself with courtesies. And she could do a lot without being a "badass", she could use her brain. For example she might sneak into Baelish's room and try to read his letters or to look at his maps, she could listen at doors or she could store servants's clothes, preparing herself for a possible flight, in short, she could plan ahead and consider her options.

I think book Sansa is her own worst enemy when it comes to taking her fate in her own hands: doing this simply does not go along with the image she so far has of herself, she sees herself as stupid, she is still relying on what she has learned, not yet applying the new knowledge about the world she has by now.

Actually I like the "new" HBO Sansa better (fortunately all kids have been aged up) the way she acted was far less like the little girl thrown around, she made decisions here, she tried to lure Joffrey into the vanguard. They here corrected some weak points about the character Sansa and I think this might be where Martin is heading as well. The only issue I have: by now she is a little too virgin mary-like holy, too much Miss Perfect, there should come some breaks to keep her as interesting as she has started to be in episode nine.

And, btw, her scenes with Lena Headey were great, though the more experienced actress still outshines Sopie Turner ( I should stop before I again go on with Cersei appreciation)

[Lyanna Stark]

i chose this quote as an example only

People who want Sansa "to make her own choices" should remember that she doesn't at all. It is Mr. Martin who makes her choices for her - as for any other character. Of course it is a sign for the quality of those books that people tend to identify to that extent with literary characters.

*facepalm*

Of course the author is the one making the ultimate choices, everyone knows that, but to constantly disregard the female characters' choices because their chosen partners are not heroic enough smacks of a certain type of misogyny where a woman's love is a gift to be earned by being suitably heroic. She is required to withhold or bestow this love based on how worthy the hero is.

It is up to the writer to imbue the female characters with a believable agency to avoid this tired trope. Obviously a lot of people have issues that neither Daario, Sandor or Jaime are good enough, heroic enough and that they have too many issues for our heroines: in other words, they have not been heroic enough to be deserving of the gift of a woman's love. That this happens anyway imbues the story with realism in my eyes, since in reality, choices are rarely based on a proportional system of heroism vs flaws.

As for identification, I tend to identify the strongest with Jaime actually. As awful as he is, his POV fits me like an old glove.

[Woman of War]

Of course the author is the one making the ultimate choices, everyone knows that, but to constantly disregard the female characters' choices because their chosen partners are not heroic enough smacks of a certain type of misogyny where a woman's love is a gift to be earned by being suitably heroic. She is required to withhold or bestow this love based on how worthy the hero is.

Lyanna, do you seriously think any of the posters and readers here want a "hero" choice for Sansa??

The first thing these books are telling us is that there are no heroes in the trope sense. Where IS the hero anyone should hope for? Actually given his physical prowess Sandor would be quite close to being a hero.

So I guess nobody here expects a hero for the damsel, that is beating a strawman, no heroes here, no damsels, nothing like that. There are no true heroes to make the ladies happy, no male character has the potential (fortunately) to fulfill the hero trope. And Jaime, Daario, Sandor et al will have very individual stories, hopefully there will never be a drawer labelled "HERO" where Martin will put his characters in.

Apart from that it is more than cheap to accuse other posters, may they be female or male, of misogyny if you cannot get through with constructive arguments. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a misogynist.

Martin and heroes, ts ts....?

[jons nissa]

Both Sansa and Arya are victims of the ruthless and ignorant adults around them, and it's high time Martin acknowledges that.

wow.

just wow.

[Maroucia]

It's awful Maroucia, just awful :(

My cold turkey makes me go through so many emotions at once... :bang: :bawl: :crying: :angry: :tantrum:

[Lyanna Stark]

Lynna, do you seriously think any of the posters and readers here want a "hero" choice for Sansa??

The first thing these books are telling us is that there are no heroes in the trope sense. Where IS the hero anyone should hope for? Actually given his physical prowess Sandor would be quite close to being a hero.

So I guess nobody here expects a hero for the damsel, that is beating a strawman, no heroes here, no damsels, nothing like that. There are no true heroes to make the ladies happy, no male character has the potential (fortunately) to fulfill the hero trope. And Jaime, Daario, Sandor et al will have very individual stories, hopefully there will never be a drawer labelled "HERO" where Martin will put his characters in.

Apart from that it is more than cheap to accuse other posters, may they be female or male, of misogyny if you cannot get through with constructive arguments.

Martin and heroes, ts ts....?

If that is what you truly believe, then why are you trying to meta Sansa's choice so hard? You claim that GRRM has somehow written it wrong, or that we are interpreting it wrong, or that Sansa has no agency/choice since the author is the one creating it. If that is what you want to argue, you have to draw the conclusion that to you, no character can possess choice or agency since they are all creations of an author. Which by the way makes no character in ASOIAF have choice OR agency, making the whole discussion 100% moot.

I also completely disagree that Sandor is anywhere near a conventional hero. For one, he's not good looking. He's also rude, crude, vulgar and impolite. He's done deeds that are far from heroic and are having issues throughout relating to his own moral compass, or even understanding it. You want a hero in ASOIAF there's Jon Snow, who's with few exception a straight playing of the hero trope, or as near as you can come.

You also completely missed the point I was making about heroism being a pre-requisite for the gift of a lady's love. Your point about why you feel Sansa's choice is invalid is because you believe the object of her affection is wrong, unworthy, mentally deranged and that the relationship cannot be happy or end with rainbows, puppies and roses. In other words: the object of Sansa's affection is not heroic enough to have earned her love. You constantly argue for Tyrion, Aegon or just about anyone else, to replace the person Sansa has chosen for this very reason. This shows that to you, Sansa's object of love is unworthy of her. She should, according to you, make a different choice. As I have stated in the past, this is a valid complaint, but it's a complaint that should be levelled at the author. If I watch True Blood and think Sookie's relationship with Eric Northman is silly and wrong, then I can complain to the author about it, but I can't claim that people who like it are perverse, wrong, looking at it the wrong way, seeing something that isn't there, or that Sookie is deranged, that her choice is not actually a choice, that's she's deluding herself or any of your other complaints. The fact of the matter is, Sansa seems as of ASOS/AFFC to have bestowed certain feelings on Sandor, just like Sookie did on Eric Northman, despite none of them in many people's eyes being worthy of that type of affection since they are not heroic characters.

And let me specifically get back to this bit:

If readers finally rejoice about a happy choice "Sansa has made for herself" it is because Martin has made a decision they like. If they complain about a less happy and less convincing ending it may be the author made a choice in Sansa's place that specific readers dislike. So Sansa just HAS to be unhappy with it, it CANNOT be her own choice.... There is the hypocrisy: no way Sandor can be sold as the only possibility of "free choice" whereas everything else is just wrong, creepy or whatever. People are so very convinced to know Martin's protagonist Sansa better than the author himself. And this is not a merry christmas book, Martin is certainly not in the wishfulfilling business, not mine nor yours. So is is simply rather hypocrite to claim "her own free will" for someone's personal preference. Fandom should never lapse into fanatism.

This is where it gets completely preposterous. You are here seriously arguing that we, the readers, are reading it wrong if we a. acknowledge Sansa's choice b. think that GRRM has built the beginning of a relationship between Sandor and Sansa in the text. I can't say that I started reading the series with any preconcieved notions of what it was going to be, or end. Epic fantasy tends to be extremely devoid of anything that could be deemed "love" or "romance". I only ever defend what is in the text and this is in the text.

Sansa fancying f!Aegon is not in the text. Sansa fancying Tyrion is not in the text. Sansa fancying Jaime Lannister is not in the text. Sansa fancying Brienne is not in the text. If people for some reason want to romanticise the notion or create their own theories based on nothing that Sansa will one day, that's all fine by me, but it has no relevance to what is in the text. This has absolutely nothing to do with personal preference. If you can show me one instance of Sansa expressing feelings of anything close to romance or desire for any man except Loras and Sandor, (discounting her very short infatuation with Joffrey in AGOT) quote them to me. Show me where they are in the text.

You come out very strong here and make a claim that a lot of readers are reading it wrong to the point of being fanatics, so back it up. You made a borderline ad hominem attack on quite a large group of people. Quotes, interpretations, analysis. Present them, why not as a bullet point list, to make it more coherent.

Finally, I did not accuse you of being a misogynist, I described a certain type of argument, specifically the denial of female choice as valid, as misogynist. This is often exemplified in people calling Cersei, Dany and Sansa "stupid" or accusing them of being wrong, deluding themselves, acting treasonous etc. when in reality all they have really done is pick their own objects of affection.

wow.

just wow.

Yes? If you care to refute it, then go ahead. I am getting really tired of people trolling this thread with pointless one liners without anything to back up their views with. Please consider respecting this thread as one dedicated to serious discussion and act accordingly.

[Maroucia]

@ Woman of war

Of course every ASOIAF characters’ destinies are controlled by GRRM a 100%!

He is the creator of this world after all!

But what’s the point discussing about that? We all know it for a fact; GRRM is the God of this fictive world we all love so much. If you want to look at it this way, in the end, no one has any control over their life; Tyrion, Tywin, Stannis, Daenaris, Jon, Littlefinger, and the list could be endless…. All of them, same as all the others, their faith depends on GRRM’s will.

This argument is true but pointless, since it can destroy every single argument anyone could have.

[Winter's Knight]

Lyanna, do you seriously think any of the posters and readers here want a "hero" choice for Sansa??

The first thing these books are telling us is that there are no heroes in the trope sense. Where IS the hero anyone should hope for? Actually given his physical prowess Sandor would be quite close to being a hero.

So I guess nobody here expects a hero for the damsel, that is beating a strawman, no heroes here, no damsels, nothing like that. There are no true heroes to make the ladies happy, no male character has the potential (fortunately) to fulfill the hero trope. And Jaime, Daario, Sandor et al will have very individual stories, hopefully there will never be a drawer labelled "HERO" where Martin will put his characters in.

Apart from that it is more than cheap to accuse other posters, may they be female or male, of misogyny if you cannot get through with constructive arguments. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a misogynist.

Martin and heroes, ts ts....?

Sometimes, I think you comment on the Sansa boards just to annoy people.

[Valkyrja]

please do not tell me to re read the text. it is awfully presumptuous of you.

This is a Re-Read thread. :dunno:

Edited to say: Or at least, as mentioned in the OP, it started out as a re-read of Sansa's chapters in order to better understand her character arc throughout the series. In doing this re-read, many of the issues currently under discussion were touched upon, and discussed in-depth with the text to back up various points of view. Given that many of the posters on this thread have recently gone through a very in-depth re-read, I don't think it is presumptuous to ask or suggest that others wishing to contribute to this thread do the same. Amongst other things, it helps put everyone on the same page so to speak.

[Woman of War]

Ahem, this is a discussion thread open to everybody, concerning the topic Sansa.

Taking that character seriously means to discuss the whole of it.

And I am waiting for the moment when people stop discussing who will come to save Sansa next and who will be the first in her pants. I want to hear about her actions, about what she personally does, thinks and tries to achieve, not what is done to her. This would mean taking a character seriously.

Nobody spends his time here in these forums to discuss Cersei's romantic perspectives, to ship her around. She is judged for what she is, for the things she does or does not. It is her person that gets appreciated or hated, not her romantic perspectives. This character is too strong to be used as projection surface.

And no, I am not trolling, I only disagree with some of you. My opinion has as much a right to be in that thread as yours.

[Kittykatknits]

Kittykatknits:

I think it's really easy to miss a lot of the suggestive body language which GRRM has put into their relationship simply because we're focused on what they're both saying. Added to this, I've found it instructive to re-read their conversations with an eye for studying what isn't said. Either that, or I'm suffering from a severe case of Sansan withdrawal, so everyone must bear that in mind :P With regard to the conversation on the serpentine steps, I think Lyanna was speaking of when he holds her chin and raises her head up. He does it to make his point about her looking at him, but taking the gesture by itself, it reads like the action of someone preparing for a kiss.

@Daidalos, I can see we are going to get nowhere in this argument, so I'm not going to continue as you noted with the back and forth. You have your opinion of Sansa, and it's simply not one that I share. I think that's all I can say about now.

Yep, there is a point in looking at what isn't said (it's fun to do that with some other characters as well, like Cersei and Brienne for instance).

The passage I was thinking of was from Sansa II in ACOK where she just got the note from Dontos, armed herself with a knife and went to the Godswood during Tyrek's wedding feast rioting (leaving the drawbridge to Maegor's empty of Kingsguard). Then on the way back she runs into the Hound, he's really drunk and makes inappropriate comments about her body, tells her to sing him a song about brave knights and fair maidens, then takes her back to her chambers past Ser Boros (where he again lies for her to saver her from Ser Boros), tells her the story of his House and then at her door, this:

Personally I think it's pretty obvious that he's coming on to her here although she doesn't get it (note his body language throughout their interactions from when he grabs her to the last bit at her door, too). Actually, it's the only chapter when it's really overt (barring his "death" scene). And yes, he's totally inappropriate, crude and vulgar, i.e. the polar opposite of anything Sansa had in mind for a suitor.

Thanks guys! I re-read the scene several times again. I had a tendency to focus on what is being said, paying much less attention to the unspoken. I've known he was coming on to her but never matched it to his actions before which add a whole new layer to their interaction here. Overall, makes for a much richer scene. When they first meet, he grabs her wrist but I never realized just how long he held on to her prior to letting go. They actually speak for quite a bit first. Later, he puts his hand on her shoulder and from the way the scene plays out here, it's pretty apparent he doesn't let go for quite awhile once more. Finally, he put his hand on her chin to have her look up at him. Again, he is touching her here for quite a bit. I match this up with what is spoken, and I completely agree!!! I was left with the impression that he had seriously been thinking about kissing her but changed his mind - as evidenced by his comments their at the end. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Valkyrja]

I was left with the impression that he had seriously been thinking about kissing her but changed his mind - as evidenced by his comments their at the end. Thanks for pointing this out.

This is one of the reasons I find it so interesting that during the Blackwater scene, Sansa *does* think he is going to kiss her. She is not just being a daft romantic girl here, imo --- I think that his body language during previous interactions, as well as during that scene itself, gave her the impression he was going to kiss her.

I only mention this because, to me, it makes her later memory of the UnKiss make a bit more sense, and goes along with the idea that Sansa is quite good at reading people, even if at this point she has not yet fully tapped into that particular ability. :)

[Kittykatknits]

This is one of the reasons I find it so interesting that during the Blackwater scene, Sansa *does* think he is going to kiss her. She is not just being a daft romantic girl here, imo --- I think that his body language during previous interactions, as well as during that scene itself, gave her the impression he was going to kiss her.

I only mention this because, to me, it makes her later memory of the UnKiss make a bit more sense, and goes along with the idea that Sansa is quite good at reading people, even if at this point she has not yet fully tapped into that particular ability. :)

I agree, feel a bit of a fool for not really making this connection before. It does help better explain why she thought he was going to kiss her and Sansa is very good at reading people. We've seen Sansa repeatedly assessing others and responding correctly, it makes sense that she would do so here. I agree, it also provides more of a basis for her unkiss memory.

I've read all their scenes countless times and now I feel as if I'm doing so the first time.

[Daidalos]

@ Daidalos

I have read in some of your posts of today, something that I found rather insulting.

You said that people that wanted Sansa and Sandor to reunite and to live some sort of “romance” together were perverted. The choosing of the word is pretty strong, I would say.

Why don't you quote me accurately if you're going to throw my words back at me? I did not say that the people who wanted SanSan to become a romantic reality were perverted. I wrote this:

to actually want to see them together strikes me as perverse.

"Perverse" as in contrary, wrong, absurd, wicked. Yes, a strong word, but not quite the meaning you attributed to me. And I do still hold the opinion that it is wrong to want them together; despite Sandor's positive qualities, I think the relationship would be unhealthy. Now, I'm going to be honest, on some level the pairing offends my modern sensibilities--she is far, far too young when they are together, and he has done awful things--but I think most of us are guilty of that. Our sensibilities are shaped by modern society, so we cannot help but judge characters accordingly, or so I believe.

I didn't mean to insult any particular individual, and for that I apologize.

Not only by pretending that, you are directly attacking a quite large part of the ASOIAF fandom that have a right to be, and should be respected as any other part of that said fandom, but also, I find that it is a simplification of the situation and also a transposition of the fiction into reality that have no reason to be.

I’ll explain my last point here:

I agree that a 13 years old girl is extremely young and should never be allowed to date much older men as Sandor, but we’re talking about ASOIAF here, where every fu***ng characters are irrationally young! Arya is killing people at 10, Robb has been chosen as king at 16, Jon has been chosen as lord commander of the wall at 16 or 17 (I don’t remember exactly), Jaime has become a member of the king’s guards at 16, and the list could go on and on.... After all that, why should we not accept that Sansa is now a “woman grown” at 13 (or even 14 now, I think) and ready to choose her potential love interest by herself, but still all the actions of the other characters that I mentioned above should not be questioned? Something is not working here. The whole series should be labelled as perverted then, instead of only the SanSan part of it.

Yes, within the context of the fictional society, Sansa's age is less of a factor. But I think this is a little hypocritical, because we judge characters not only by the standards of their society, but by our modern standards. Are you going to tell me that you did not feel disgust towards the slavers in Astapor or Mereen? Within their own societies, the practice of slavery is sanctioned and a vital part of their economy. What right have we to condemn them?

And to a degree, it is fair to call the whole series perverted. That doesn't mean it is not good fiction.

Also, if every details of what we like and enjoy in a book should be transposed and then interpreted as what we are in our real life, then it would mean that most of the ASOIAF fandom are a bunch of cold blooded killers same as the characters they like. I have to admit, I’m a fan of Tywin Lannister who is the worst father ever and killed directly and indirectly probably more than thousands of innocent people! Does that mean that in my everyday life, I’m not suited to be a mother and that I wish to kill all of my neighbours? If you enjoy Littlefingers’s plots, should I conclude because of that, that you are same as he is, manipulating everyone that surrounds you for your own advancement? If someone likes reading about Tyrion’s twisted relations with prostitutes, is it a confirmation that this very person is also using those kinds of services? And what about those readers who like Ramsay or Gregor? Are they serial killers in their every day life? Fiction is fiction and should not be transposed in the reality. You have the right to think that something in the books is perverted, but I don’t see how your judgment should then be tagged on the people who enjoy what you don’t. It’s a direct attack that have no place on a forum as the one we are on, a place where we should not judge one another, just discuss.

I think it is unavoidable that we measure fiction against reality, or against preconceptions that have been shaped in a real culture. However, I did NOT make any judgments regarding the members of the fandom who are SanSan-shippers. I can call an argument stupid without thinking the person who argued it stupid.

As a final word for my post, I would just like to add that I am not mad at you, I just wanted to make a point that a part of the fandom should not be set apart and then judged as perverted by others when, in the end, we are all fans of the same amazing story. We just enjoy different parts of it, in different ways and we should never attack each others in a direct way.

I'm sorry if anyone feels that I judged them perverted, for that was not my intention.

[jons nissa]

Yes? If you care to refute it, then go ahead. I am getting really tired of people trolling this thread with pointless one liners without anything to back up their views with. Please consider respecting this thread as one dedicated to serious discussion and act accordingly.

you want me to refute that martin should acknowledge what he meant with a scene he wrote in his book? as part of a serious discussion?

oooookay.

uhm, no thank you.