From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[brashcandy]

So my questions are:

Was there (Is there?) an overwhelming amount of Sansa hate?

Has the Sansa-hate changed over time?

I've only been in the fandom for a year, so I'm sure some others like Lummel and Lyanna Stark would be able to give more a expansive view on this, but just based on what I've experienced on Westeros, and other sites, then yes, absolutely yes, there is a lot of hate directed at Sansa from the fandom. Most of it stems from her actions in AGOT which people see as her betraying her family and causing her father's death, as well as the in built misogynistic denigration of traditionally feminine women, who are seen as lacking in drive or ability.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I've only been in the fandom for a year, so I'm sure some others like Lummel and Lyanna Stark would be able to give more a expansive view on this, but just based on what I've experienced on Westeros, and other sites, then yes, absolutely yes, there is a lot of hate directed at Sansa from the fandom. Most of it stems from her actions in AGOT which people see as her betraying her family and causing her father's death, as well as the in built misogynistic denigration of traditionally feminine women, who are seen as lacking in drive or ability.

Sansa gets hated on alot. But any more then her mother? What about her husband? Or Dany? Even goody 2 shoes Jon Snow has recived criticism. Haters hate.

[David Selig]

I've spend a lot of time reading older Sansa threads from the archives here, and it seems like the hate for her used to be quite a bit stronger some years back than it is now. Just my impression, I could be wrong.

It seems that after ADWD Dany is the main target for hate in the fandom, it used to be Sansa and Cat before.

[Valkyrja]

Ned thinks good of everybody, spends time with people and brings them to dinner and never smiles. Cat thinks politics, thinks highborn are better then most and is witty. How is that not Sansa? Who studies her history and bannars, doesn't talk to Shae becasue she's lowborn and makes alot of jokes

<snip>

ETA. So what do you want? San/Sans? Lol. Don't you want the Starks to become strong? Don't you want Cersei to lose?

Sansa/Alayne as of AFFC, not only *talks* to Mya Stone (who is a bastard) but is herself posing as a bastard. She seems to almost envy Mya the freedom that she has to choose her own lover.

I feel that Sansa is at a very different place now when it comes to her understanding and appreciation of those more 'lowborn' than she, bastards especially. She even thinks fondly of Jon Snow and how she would given almost anything to be able to see him again.

This is why re-reading is important......a re-read of Sansa's AFFC chapters revealed this growing aspect of her character. :)

ETA: Appreciating "San/San" does not negate the possibility that Sansa will get her revenge, and that the Starks will rise again. I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.

Also, IMO, the person that most deserves Sansa's 'revenge' attention right now, more than even Cersei, is Littlefinger himself. He has consistently worked to destroy Sansa's family and personal happiness in order to further his plots and schemes (which, incidentally, have all involved his desire to get Sansa into his power!!).

That said, I don't think revenge is what is motivating Sansa.....it is more her wish, however hidden at the moment, to escape imprisonment, and to find 'home' and what remains of her family again, and to be loved or at least appreciated for herself, and not for her claim.

[greensleeves]

I think the fans just got more vocal. There is a strong anti-Sansa base-there have been boards discussing her "betrayal of Ned", how she deserves everything that happened to her post AGoT, how awful she is for not kneeling for Tyrion and so on.

I've been on the board for six months now and the hate's been pretty steady.

I'm glad there is such a vocal Pro-Sansa base.

I've only been in the fandom for a year, so I'm sure some others like Lummel and Lyanna Stark would be able to give more a expansive view on this, but just based on what I've experienced on Westeros, and other sites, then yes, absolutely yes, there is a lot of hate directed at Sansa from the fandom. Most of it stems from her actions in AGOT which people see as her betraying her family and causing her father's death, as well as the in built misogynistic denigration of traditionally feminine women, who are seen as lacking in drive or ability.

Only a year? It's hard to imagine this board without you!

Sansa gets hated on alot. But any more then her mother? What about her husband? Or Dany? Even goody 2 shoes Jon Snow has recived criticism. Haters hate.

I've spend a lot of time reading older Sansa threads from the archives here, and it seems like the hate for her used to be quite a bit stronger some years back than it is now. Just my impression, I could be wrong.

It seems that after ADWD Dany is the main target for hate in the fandom, it used to be Sansa and Cat before.

I have really noticed the Dany hate (just go over to the confessions thread!). I'm glad to hear that you at least think it has gone down somewhat.

Thanks for answering my questions guys.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Sansa/Alayne as of AFFC, not only *talks* to Mya Stone (who is a bastard) but is herself posing as a bastard. She seems to almost envy Mya the freedom that she has to choose her own lover.

Word. She is a bastard, not Cat's daughter, and has the need for gossip.

I feel that Sansa is at a very different place now when it comes to her understanding and appreciation of those more 'lowborn' than she, bastards especially. She even thinks fondly of Jon Snow and how she would given almost anything to be able to see him again.

This is why re-reading is important......a re-read of Sansa's AFFC chapters revealed this growing aspect of her character. :)

I hated the tully girls on my first read, what the hells was wrong with me?

But these kind thoughts consited of "bastard halfbrother Jon Snow is at the wall, he's the only family Sansa Stark has left, but she's not even Sansa Stark". Where do you come up with given almost anything to see him, lol, reaching a little are we? She could have told Royce(?) I'm a Stark send me to the wall so ill get there around the ides of marsh, but she didn't she kissed her "father" on the cheek and poured more arbor gold for the guests.

ETA: Appreciating "San/San" does not negate the possibility that Sansa will get her revenge, and that the Starks will rise again. I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.

Also, IMO, the person that most deserves Sansa's 'revenge' attention right now, more than even Cersei, is Littlefinger himself. He has consistently worked to destroy Sansa's family and personal happiness in order to further his plots and schemes (which, incidentally, have all involved his desire to get Sansa into his power!!).

That said, I don't think revenge is what is motivating Sansa.....it is more her wish, however hidden at the moment, to escape imprisonment, and to find 'home' and what remains of her family again, and to be loved or at least appreciated for herself, and not for her claim.

It's not exclusive, I want Sansa to get revenge becasue she deseves it, she doesn't want revenge as of now i agree (because every time Cersei's name is mentioned Sansa starts to shake like her cousion, poor scared girl.

The way I see her home in contrast to revenge is like this Robb put on a crown to free his sisters and kill the Lannisters. Sansa will free her brothers and kill the Lannisters and in the process get to be queen. It's like what Davos said to Stannis "your putting your carriage infront of the horse" or something like that

[Valkyrja]

I've spend a lot of time reading older Sansa threads from the archives here, and it seems like the hate for her used to be quite a bit stronger some years back than it is now. Just my impression, I could be wrong.

It seems that after ADWD Dany is the main target for hate in the fandom, it used to be Sansa and Cat before.

I'd agree with this. I've been a fan of the books for ten years, on the boards for almost seven, and actively posting for about five years (I know, I know, I don't have that many posts for being here that long, I was mostly a lurker!), and I used to see a Sansa-hate or a Cat-hate thread pop up like.....every other day? :P Now it is not so bad, but you still get some very vehement and vocal haters out there. It seems like right now though, the Sansa hate has filtered into "San/San hate" (seriously, I've rarely seen any other 'ship' met with such vitriol amongst the haters as this one, its so sad). When AFFC came out, the Sansa and Cat hate was directed at Cersei...sad, but more understandble given her downward spiral in that book. Personally, I felt a mix of disgust and pity for her, she was so delusional, but oddly I hated her less than when she was a mysterious player of the game through others PoVs. The most hated female currently seems to be Dany right now, which is a shame, but there you go.

Nonetheless, I still feel the need to keep the Sansa appreciation and in-depth discussion of her character arc going strong, because I don't have enough faith that if we do not keep this torch burning, the boards won't revert/devolve back to outright Sansa hate. :P

So thanks for everyone (of all opinions) who have contributed to this discussion thus far. I'm thankful that there is a place on Westeros to talk about this character in an open-minded, mature manner. May it long continue. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

Examples of Sansa hate:

http://asoiaf.wester...nt-stand-sansa/

http://asoiaf.wester...ansa-lannister/ (complete with someone wanting Sansa to be given to Ramsay Snow, or become a salt wife)

http://asoiaf.wester...s/#entry1806831 (Sansa being compared to Viserys, Ramsay and Cersei)

http://asoiaf.wester...asoiaf-secrets/

http://asoiaf.wester...-found-wanting/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/32163-sansa-is-super-awesome-fantastic/

http://asoiaf.wester...a-lannister-v2/

http://asoiaf.wester...-and-not-sansa/

http://asoiaf.wester...ke-sansa-stark/

http://asoiaf.wester...on/page__st__20

http://asoiaf.wester...nsa-betray-ned/

http://asoiaf.wester...pov-characters/

http://asoiaf.wester...-choose-lancel/

http://asoiaf.wester...ic/53234-sansa/

http://asoiaf.wester...a-and-feminism/

http://asoiaf.wester...chopping-block/

And the parody of all the Sansa hate threads: http://asoiaf.wester...on-in-westeros/

Yes, the Sansa hate used to be everywhere a couple of years ago, mostly pre-AFFC, but after it, too. Once ADWD hit, as people have pointed out, a lot of hatred went Dany's way, both because she didn't automatically become an amazing ruler despite having no training and also because she decided to sleep with Daario, which according to many made her an autoslut and unfit to sit the Iron Throne. Before ADWD, Dany had far more sympathisers.

Cat has always been a hate object ever since she was once mean to Jon Snow. She gets blamed for everything from Ned's death to Robb dying at the Red Wedding.

Personally I report every post I see with rape or death wishes for a character, which means most of the more...dramatic ones have already been deleted by the Mods. Some of the linked threads still have some real gems though, like wishing Sansa to become a salt wife, or people likening her to Cersei. Then there is the infamous "Sansa worst person in Westeros" parody thread, which also contains some lovely gems from people who actually agree that she is. I wish I was joking.

[brashcandy]

Sansa/Alayne as of AFFC, not only *talks* to Mya Stone (who is a bastard) but is herself posing as a bastard. She seems to almost envy Mya the freedom that she has to choose her own lover.

I feel that Sansa is at a very different place now when it comes to her understanding and appreciation of those more 'lowborn' than she, bastards especially. She even thinks fondly of Jon Snow and how she would given almost anything to be able to see him again.

This is why re-reading is important......a re-read of Sansa's AFFC chapters revealed this growing aspect of her character. :)

ETA: Appreciating "San/San" does not negate the possibility that Sansa will get her revenge, and that the Starks will rise again. I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.

Also, IMO, the person that most deserves Sansa's 'revenge' right now, more than even Cersei, is Littlefinger himself. He has consistently worked to destroy Sansa's family and personal happiness in order to further his plots schemes.

That said, I don't think revenge is what is motivating Sansa.....it is more her wish, however hidden at the moment, to escape imprisonment, and to find 'home' and what remains of her family again, and to be loved or at least appreciated for herself, and not for her claim.

Well said, Valkyrja. I just don't understand this idea that Sansa needs to be the one to restore her family name and honour. Would it be nice? Sure, but as we've seen from Sansa's arc, playing the game for her is more about personal freedom rather than political power. I'm not sure that Westeros is a place where one can have have both, and even someone like Dany who wants to sit the Iron Throne, feels the burden of being responsible to her "people" and having to make decisions based on that. I would be happy if Sansa is happy being a Queen; if she can find a way to articulate her desires and be her own person within that role then fine. But I do think Martin has kept the question open for a reason and I'm always mindful of that scene between her and LF in ASOS when he asks her if she's fond of games, and she begins to say it would depend on something, but is cut off when Grisel appears. What would it depend on honestly? Since Sansa has come into contact with LF, he's repeatedly told her about the "game", or the "only game that matters" etc etc. We know the game is very important to Petyr - it's what he strives on, and in a very real sense he's playing the game for the game itself. But we have had no such declaration of love for the game by Sansa, and any involvement she's had in Petyr's schemes has been about ensuring her identity remains hidden. Perhaps TWOW will open and we'll see Sansa taking to these kinds of machinations like a duck to water, but I for one would be very surprised.

[Lyanna Stark]

let me spell it in caps lock because you guys seem to ignore this I DON'T WANT SANSA TO BE A WHORE, I WANT HER TO CLAIM HER QUEENSHIP IN THE NAME OF HER MOTHER AND BROTHER!!

Just a friendly reminder, be careful with the wording, sexual slurs are basis for reporting and banning. Wishing a happy relationship for Sansa in the future is not wishing that she prostitutes herself, which I think we can all agree on.

Nonetheless, I still feel the need to keep the Sansa appreciation and in-depth discussion of her character arc going strong, because I don't have enough faith that if we do not keep this torch burning, the boards won't revert/devolve back to outright Sansa hate. :P

I agree with this. I posted for the first time in March 2001 after having lurked for months, and the amount of Sansa supporters we have now and people ready to defend her character we've simply never had before. Now if only poor Cat and Dany could catch a break. :)

[Sand11751]

I'm a self-professed former Sansa hater. Skimmed / skipped several chapters with her on the first read. Couldn't stand her fairytale view of the world and Joffrey, and a shocking disloyalty to Arya and her father. Now I can't get enough of this girl.Her role in the grander schemes of KL allows her to find personal strength, endurance I never believed she was capable of. I've said this before, Sansa is as much a survivor as Arya, both being called on to subvert their true personalities and become someone else. For those who don't think she has courage, I'm reminded of a line from show Brienne - Sansa may not have battle courage, but she has a woman's courage, to bear suffering, betrayal and death without surrendering to it. I find that as fascinating as Arya's personal journey.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Just a friendly reminder, be careful with the wording, sexual slurs are basis for reporting and banning. Wishing a happy relationship for Sansa in the future is not wishing that she prostitutes herself, which I think we can all agree on.

First of all Mrs. Sansa Lannister (vol 2 or 3) is not a Sansa hate thread, I'd know I started 2 of them. Greatly appricated if you edit that out, thanks much

Secondly I'm sorry if my grammer is harsh or offensive, I mean no offense. However if you sell yourself that makes you a....

[Lyanna Stark]

First of all Mrs. Sansa Lannister (vol 2 or 3) is not a Sansa hate thread, I'd know I started 2 of them. Greatly appricated if you edit that out, thanks much

Secondly I'm sorry if my grammer is harsh or offensive, I mean no offense. However if you sell yourself that makes you a....

They contain a lot of Sansa hatred, hence why they are used as examples. This is not saying that your posts are. A lot of the posts in the threads aren't hate posts, but there is still a sizeable, undeleted amount of hate posts left.

You can also try and google "Sansa hate" and you'll get some "interesting" results.

Your grammar is not offensive, but the sexist slurs are, hence please refrain from using words like "whore" unless you are referring to someone who is actually a prostitute, like Shae.

[Valkyrja]

I'm a self-professed former Sansa hater. Skimmed / skipped several chapters with her on the first read. Couldn't stand her fairytale view of the world and Joffrey, and a shocking disloyalty to Arya and her father. Now I can't get enough of this girl.Her role in the grander schemes of KL allows her to find personal strength, endurance I never believed she was capable of. I've said this before, Sansa is as much a survivor as Arya, both being called on to subvert their true personalities and become someone else. For those who don't think she has courage, I'm reminded of a line from show Brienne - Sansa may not have battle courage, but she has a woman's courage, to bear suffering, betrayal and death without surrendering to it. I find that as fascinating as Arya's personal journey.

Thank you for posting this, Sand! You've summed up Sansa very well. :)

[Lummel]

Sansa commits so many crimes that it's no surprise she's unpopular, she's the closest to a traditional image of a feminine ideal, she's sniffy towards established fan favourites like Jon and Tyrion and she runs off to Cersei when The Ned wants to ship her home...at this stage I would link to the worst person in Westeros thread but Lyanna has already done my work for me :ninja: there.

She's also I think non-traditional in fantasy, she is an observer, also she suffers - maybe some readers either lack the empathy or don't like being put through that experience of powerlessness and constant threat she has to endure and transfer those reactions to a dislike of her. There's a marked favour towards characters who run about and do things - character development doesn't make you a popular character.

She ends up being blamed in some odd ways for being unstark, not killing enough people, making mistakes (apparently we have a large readership of saints and similar perfect types who can't tolerate mistakes)...

On the whole I think the re-read threads have been good for her, but threads eventually work their way down the listing. The price of a balanced view of Sansa is perpetual vigilance I suppose...

[brashcandy]

Only a year? It's hard to imagine this board without you!

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? :P Nevertheless, thank you!

I'm a self-professed former Sansa hater. Skimmed / skipped several chapters with her on the first read. Couldn't stand her fairytale view of the world and Joffrey, and a shocking disloyalty to Arya and her father. Now I can't get enough of this girl.Her role in the grander schemes of KL allows her to find personal strength, endurance I never believed she was capable of. I've said this before, Sansa is as much a survivor as Arya, both being called on to subvert their true personalities and become someone else. For those who don't think she has courage, I'm reminded of a line from show Brienne - Sansa may not have battle courage, but she has a woman's courage, to bear suffering, betrayal and death without surrendering to it. I find that as fascinating as Arya's personal journey.

This was very nicely said, Sand 11751. I tend to think Westeros has had enough of "battle courage".

[Lummel]

I'm a self-professed former Sansa hater... For those who don't think she has courage, I'm reminded of a line from show Brienne - Sansa may not have battle courage, but she has a woman's courage, to bear suffering, betrayal and death without surrendering to it. I find that as fascinating as Arya's personal journey.

Thanks for testifying...you once were lost but now are found, were blind, but now you see! :)

[Woman of War]

There are "haters" for every character, lots of Cersei hate, really passionate and disproportionate, not because she is so nice but because the fascination of her character is hidden below overly strong dislike. Same goes for Dany, people complain about her storyline and her character, never carefully distinguishing one from the other and thus making a careful evaluation nearly impossible. And there is Tyrion hatred, reducing this character on his complicated sex life, conveniently leaving out everything else. And there is even passionate Bran or Jon hatred, it is difficult for me to explain that for lack of understanding. No, many characters get their share of irrational hatred. I do not get "haters" in general.

There are few Sansa haters but apparently some people who so far are not overly invested in her character, this may change with further books when her storyline goes more into the center of events. And accusing people of disliking feminity in general if there are some traits specific to the character Sansa they like less is pointless because all gender debates are about the idea that there is no such thing as clearly defined "feminity". Forty years of feminist discourse should have taught us that.

We all know that soft skills are as much needed in politics, in your job, wherever, as hard skills. But if women insist on their soft skills at the expense of hard skills they are handicapping themselves, entering the trap of positive discrimination "because they need it". They do not need it, they can be as qualified and good as men or better. And men will learn soon enough to value soft skills because they have to, otherwise it is them who are out of the race. So much for "feminine" and "masculine" traits, the whole antagonism is unnecessary and a well meaning but highly dangerous trap for women in real life.

If you want to call me misogynist for having a clear political opinion in the feminist discouse, go on. Apart from that there might be some female (and male) politically aware people who share it.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

They contain a lot of Sansa hatred, hence why they are used as examples. This is not saying that your posts are. A lot of the posts in the threads aren't hate posts, but there is still a sizeable, undeleted amount of hate posts left.

You can also try and google "Sansa hate" and you'll get some "interesting" results.

Your grammar is not offensive, but the sexist slurs are, hence please refrain from using words like "whore" unless you are referring to someone who is actually a prostitute, like Shae.

Ahh fair enough, keep it up then. I have no wish to see what Sansa haters have to say

Ok... I'm not trying to be sexist, I'm using harsh grammer to convey my point, im trying to be anti arragned marriages and anti marrige just for claim. Ned Stark was whored out to Cat, Robb Stark was whored out to Roslin Frey. Ned managed to find love after being sold by his father (because his brother is dead), mayhaps Robb could have also, things didn't work out.

I want more from Sansa, I don't even want a guarantee that Harry is a cool person who wants to protect Sansa. I want Sansa to either find love for the sake of love or find her own strengths within herself

[brashcandy]

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? :P Nevertheless, thank you!

This was very nicely said, Sand 11751. I tend to think Westeros has had enough of "battle courage".

ETA: And somewhere in the Lands of always Winter the Others are laughing heartily at my statement :)