From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[brashcandy]

dp

[butterbumps!]

You know, I might have an idea (and sorry Rapsie and Brashcandy for hijacking with planning!)

I wonder if a "major women" thread might not be a "reread", but where 6-7 of us maybe each present an "executive summary" for Brienne, Cat, Arya, Sansa, Cersei and Dany (potentially Asha too), for each of the 5 books. One thing that's successful about the Heresey threads is that Black Crow puts the onus on textual support from everyone who participates, which relieves the burden on the OPs. Perhaps for something as ambitious as this, a few of us could choose our "heroine", summarize the arc of one book at a time, then invite others to contribute with good textual support and analysis?

ETA: hadn't read Lummel's suggestion. Yes, I agree that it ought to be organized around a theme, too. Just trying to think of possible ways to relieve the burden on poor WK!

[Lyanna Stark]

I quite like Winter's Knight "Mothers of Westeros" theme since it will basically be Cat and Cersei, who contrast eachother as mothers quite a lot (unless we count Dany as a mother, but she is a mother only in the metaphorical sense).

[Winter's Knight]

You know, I might have an idea (and sorry Rapsie and Brashcandy for hijacking with planning!)

I wonder if a "major women" thread might not be a "reread", but where 6-7 of us maybe each present an "executive summary" for Brienne, Cat, Arya, Sansa, Cersei and Dany (potentially Asha too), for each of the 5 books. One thing that's successful about the Heresey threads is that Black Crow puts the onus on textual support from everyone who participates, which relieves the burden on the OPs. Perhaps for something as ambitious as this, a few of us could choose our "heroine", summarize the arc of one book at a time, then invite others to contribute with good textual support and analysis?

ETA: hadn't read Lummel's suggestion. Yes, I agree that it ought to be organized around a theme, too. Just trying to think of possible ways to relieve the burden on poor WK!

Oh, don't worry about that-I need something to do for the summer. :cool4:

[brashcandy]

I like Lummel's suggestion of choosing a theme, and perhaps relating it to the older generation vs. the young-uns :) I do think a re-analysis might be what is needed here, and not so much a re-read, which calls for a very specific chapter-by chapter focus.

[1234567]

One thing that's successful about the Heresey threads is that Black Crow puts the onus on textual support from everyone who participates, which relieves the burden on the OPs.

That's a really good point. Having the text is really important and maybe should be a sitpulation that any analysis should include the relevant text or chapter reference in the post.

Also I like Dany too. :cheers:

[Lummel]

Mothers, Catelyn and Cersei would work - but might be bad for a thread because both are unpopular characters. And by bad I mean not attract much interest. You have to be honest about what you want to achieve and on the whole I think if you want the westeros fandom to reevaluate a character then you do want to attract an audience and to get some new ideas or fresh perspectives to take root.

I'm not sure that generational would work unless you shift from POVs to characters generally, I don't see enough of a generational shift at all in the books personally in terms of the values and styles of characters, apart maybe from the lannisters. I'm not sure that regional would work either, I suspect a comparison between Arienne, Asha, Cersei and Catelyn could end up being a bit forced.

Butterbumps - that's a lot of reading. Your participants would need to go away read all the chapters then post...you could do it Heresy style and just have a women of westeros thread with the aim of just generally exploring the female characters, but even with Heresy Black Crow started with a thesis in his original thread which then got knocked down, reassembled and span off. It's no bad idea but it can be a bit of a closed circle and be off putting/intimidating to new-comers, we have that in Heresy.

I think we've been a bit sneaky in our Dany/jon thread by combining a popular with (at least in ADWD) less popular character, Cersei and Jaime could work like that, maybe Tyrion and Catelyn could.

[Valkyrja]

Just wondering.....you guys *are* still planning to continue wtih the Sansa discussion, right?

*looks hopeful* :)

[Queen Cersei I]

Cat :

- Cat was killed by Freys

Silly rabbit! Didn't you know that was all really just the Evil Sansa, her insidious powers of mind control yet again upon the poor, hapless Walder Frey?

And you're right, saying Sansa is responsible for 75 percent of the bad happenings in Westeros? Is totally ridiculous. She is responsible for 100 percent of everything bad that ever happens in Westeros. Ever.

[Winter's Knight]

Silly rabbit! Didn't you know that was all really just the Evil Sansa, her insidious powers of mind control yet again upon the poor, hapless Walder Frey? Clearly all of the adults in Westeros are helpless against the wicked power of 13 year old adolescent girl mind control!

And you're right, saying Sansa is responsible for 75 percent of the bad happenings in Westeros? Is totally ridiculous. That evil child genius is surely responsible for 100 percent of everything that happens to her family, friends, and total strangers. It is known.

So Cersei's Vortex of Doom is contagious?

By the way, would you be interested in a Mothers of Westoros reread?

[brashcandy]

What about selecting some pertinent themes:

Family relationships

Power and authority

Sex and sexuality

etc

and discussing the women with respect to those issues?

[brashcandy]

Just wondering.....you guys *are* still planning to continue wtih the Sansa discussion, right?

*looks hopeful* :)

Hahah! Of course :)

[Elba the Intoner]

I agree with you 100%! For some reason, this concept is difficult for me to explain to people.......you did a very good job though. :)

Thank you!

I agree with much of this, and to add, I’m flummoxed by the continued determination of “badass” as a positive thing. In fact, I think nearly all of the acts thought to be “badass” are usually those I find distasteful and pointless.

To back up for a second, I want to say that while I do like the women who do not conform to typical “feminine” roles, this admiration has nothing to do with being “badass” or the “tomboyishness” itself. For me, it’s far less about bucking gender roles and wielding a sword, but more about underlying virtues that are expressed variously as either “feminine” or “tomboy.” The traits I favor in any character are discipline, self-control, kindness, and reasonableness. To this end, I see Sansa and Arya’s arc to be nearly identical and worthy of equal praise, see both Cat and Brienne as equally commendable, and also why I am not as favorable toward Dany (please don’t hate me for that :blush:).

To illustrate a bit, Arya is the character that sometimes made me sigh and wish she could be less vengeful and myopic in her view, and I actually grew to respect her much more as she became more disciplined and gained perspective through her travails. For me, her journey is not so much “super cool deadly assassin,” but the path toward incredible competency, and about seeing the world for what it is- “look with your eyes.” I would also add that Arya’s self control, discipline and “seeing with your eyes” are precisely the same reasons I find Sansa so admirable. This is not an Arya thread, so I don’t want to derail further, but my point is that I think it’s beneficial to understanding characters by looking beyond the overt expressions of “badassery” to the core evolution of the character in question.

I know a few pages upthread Brashcandy (I think) suggested the benefits of doing an Arya reread. I would love to second this idea, and would add that it would be fantastic to do even a “major women of Westeros” thread. (I would love to open this myself, but I’m involved in another re-read project, and don’t think I could do it full justice.) It truly does seem that reader perception of the female characters are divided along the lines of whether they are “feminine” (i.e. subtle evolutions + “inaction”) or “tomboy” (i.e. overt and “badass”). I think that looking beyond the outward expression of how these women exercise their strength to the underlying motivations and traits would be incredibly beneficial to exorcise the ongoing favoritism of the “tomboys.” The admirable women share much more than seems obvious I think.

Anyway, excellent work everyone who’s been getting into these issues here.

:agree: :agree: :agree: Regarding the first sentence I bolded, that goes to my point that the more cruel, coldhearted the "badass" act the better, and I just don't get it.

Ha I love that everyone's now thinking of doing a women of westeros analysis based off these comments. I love the idea!!! I would gladly follow it and contribute.

[Lummel]

What about selecting some pertinent themes:

Family relationships

Power and authority

Sex and sexuality

etc

and discussing the women with respect to those issues?

yup, that could be good.

The strength of a reread is that it provides a natural direction and pattern for the discussion. If you don't have that then it is open ended and potentally unfocused, unless it is moderated a bit, maybe by people undertaking to bring a post on a particular angle, say if the topic was family relationships then Arya and Catelyn, The Ned and Sansa, the lannister sibliings vs the Stark siblings, just to move the conversation on and give it a bit of a structure. Otherwise there's the risk that you go round in circles. Doing a reread you are forced to read things again and to notice things that you've forgotten or which didn't seem meaningful the first time round by now look very significant (er for example sleeping patterns and clothes have turned out to be pretty interesting for us which I don't think we expected when we started our reread project!)

[Winter's Knight]

I just had another idea: what if we do an exploration of the Madonna/Whore themes running through the books? An analysis of the perceptions of women's sexuality in Westoros.

For example, Cat's first thought after Ned makes love to her are bereft of much pleasure:

Her loins still ached from the urgency of his lovemaking. It was a good ache. She could feel his seed within her. She prayed that it might quicken there. It had been three years since Rickon. She was not too old. She could give him another son.

And she doesn't seem to express any sort of lust later on, after being separated from Ned.

Lysa's lust is often ridiculed.

[butterbumps!]

I'm really excited about the support for this idea. The more I read about reasons why readers like certain characters versus others, especially the female ones, I really think dispelling some of the superficial differences that lead to this varied favoritism and scorn is crucial.

Even when the interpretation is favorable, such as the Arya-love, I think there's a deeper and more subtle calculus that goes unnoticed in forming that opinion, and as such, does a disservice even to those commonly favored. The reasons stated for liking those women are only a small part of what makes them so admirable (imo). For example, I don't completely understand how it is commonly perceived that Sansa is "static" while Arya is full of "action." Yes, Arya's phsyically moving around the Riverlands and having adventure, but in terms of character progression, I see their inner struggles are remarkably similar, and perhaps Arya's as even progressing more slowly than Sansa's in some ways. So for me, my investment in a comparative analysis is something like "beyond tomboys and ladies: a deeper analysis of female admiration" or something to that effect that pushes beyond the external expressions to the raw traits and really analyzes what's going on in terms of evolution and qualities. I'm not sure if that's a theme exactly, though, or if such a thing is way too ambitious.

Sorry Valkyra- just saw your desire to get back on Sansa, so I bolded the part here that does mention her!

[brashcandy]

I just had another idea: what if we do an exploration of the Madonna/Whore themes running through the books? An analysis of the perceptions of women's sexuality in Westoros.

For example, Cat's first thought after Ned makes love to her are bereft of much pleasure:

And she doesn't seem to express any sort of lust later on, after being separated from Ned.

Lysa's lust is often ridiculed.

I love this idea :)

[Winter's Knight]

I love this idea :)

It is something I've wanted to do for a while and it can fit in with the Mothers of Westoros theme.

[Elba the Intoner]

I like the tomboys v lady theme a lot. Especially as right now I am really focused on the idea of the "badass" being admired. As I said, the male characters do get viewed in such a way but I think it's even more pronounced with the females. I think society in general really reinforces this idea and you see it everywhere in modern entertainment. This is why I think the show has changed Brienne's character from the book to make her more badass, and therefore more likeable. Though I know we are not supposed to mention the show on the book threads, it's this notion that is being perpetuated throughout society also informs our reading of the characters so that the subtleties and layers that GRRM has imbued them with, especially the more "feminine" ones, are overlooked.

ETA Madonna vs whore theme would work well to explore this idea too. Loving all the suggestions!

[Lummel]

I just had another idea: what if we do an exploration of the Madonna/Whore themes running through the books? An analysis of the perceptions of women's sexuality in Westoros.

For example, Cat's first thought after Ned makes love to her are bereft of much pleasure...

Is this regret I feel now for having called Catelyn the virgin mary of westeros? (in another thread far, far away)

...a comparative analysis is something like "beyond tomboys and ladies: a deeper analysis of female admiration" or something to that effect that pushes beyond the external expressions to the raw traits and really analyzes what's going on in terms of evolution and qualities. I'm not sure if that's a theme exactly, though, or if such a thing is way too ambitious...

It could be complex. I could see this as Arya, Asha, Arienne and Sansa, two tom-boy types versus two non-tomboy types.

Going beyond that to why one type of character is admired while another isn't is ambitious - particularly because it's very fluffy. And by fluffy I mean we read the threads here and get a feel for who the popular and unpopular characters are and the kind of things people say about them but there's no hard data about it. We don't know how the fandom actually splits in it's opinions by age, sex, country, education, typical reading habits or whatever - it's a topic that could easily lend itself to generalisations.

Personally I think Arya and Sansa's stories are both about growing up. The internal journey is I feel more important than the moving about from A to B - in Arya's case that's largely making pointless circles through the riverlands anyway...