From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Valkyrja]

Sorry Valkyra- just saw your desire to get back on Sansa, so I bolded the part here that does mention her!

Awww, cheers! Thanks for thinking of me. :)

It's ok though, I think this idea for a thread is really important and much-needed in this community right now. If only Benioff and Weiss had such a deep understanding and appreciation of these women in the text, perhaps some of the travesties of characterization on the HBO show would have been avoided (just imo).

I would be keen to include the discussion about the perception of female characters being 'badass' in this, as I think it has far-reaching implications in how REAL women are viewed as well!

Edited to say: Elba the Intoner addressed this before my post went through, and said it much better than I did! :D

[Winter's Knight]

Is this regret I feel now for having called Catelyn the virgin mary of westeros? (in another thread far, far away)

I have a long memory Lummel-you did not know me but I was watching you from the shadows.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Just wondering.....you guys *are* still planning to continue wtih the Sansa discussion, right?

*looks hopeful* :)

Word! Let's talk

Silly rabbit! Didn't you know that was all really just the Evil Sansa, her insidious powers of mind control yet again upon the poor, hapless Walder Frey?

And you're right, saying Sansa is responsible for 75 percent of the bad happenings in Westeros? Is totally ridiculous. She is responsible for 100 percent of everything bad that ever happens in Westeros. Ever.

You know I'm not bashing her right? I'm just stating the fact that most of the stuff that happens in Westeros is due to Sansa's actions and despite not wanting to play agot she is the biggest player by making the most moves.

-Ned was offered to be Hand of the King, 9 out of 10 times you have to accept it. But he still could have declined, however throw Sansa & Joff in the pot and Ned has to go south

- Ned was aware of his sister in laws letter and mayhaps suspected Bran's fall, but it was Lady's death that made Ned distrust the Lannisters

- Also when Lady died Joff truly became a monster, he may have always been but Cersei said that's when shit hit the fan

-Sansa said "he's nothing like his drunken father!" Thusly causing Ned to be aware of the twincest

- She told Cersei about Ned's plans to depart which caused Robert's death

- She was on the dais when Ned lost his life, I doubt he would confess those treasons if she wasn't there

- I don't think she caused that many world wide politics during ACOK, short of the end when Cat freed Jaime for her

-Was married to Tyrion Lannister causing Tysha's marriage to truly be a sham (prob not world wide politics there lol)

- Because of her marriage Jon Snow was legitimized

- And lastly Joff died! (causing her husband to get arrested, causing Red Viper to die, causing the Sand Snakes to wild out, causing the crowning of Queen Myrcella, causing her to get her face broken

- Not true, one more thing after that, she was also responsible for her Lysa Arryn's death

The actions that Sansa did not contribute to consist of

- everything revolving King Greyjoy and his brothers, daughter and Theon

- The RW

- The Tyrell/Renly alliance,( though the Tyrell/Tommen alliance was probably her doing)

That's it.... I think Sansa's responcible for more then 75% of Westeros stuff actually

[Gingerly Grumkin]

double post. sorry :D

[brashcandy]

Alrightie. Well, I think some solid suggestions have been proposed for the upcoming Women in Westeros thread, and it will up to the thread organizers to make the final decision on what they want to discuss.

So let's get back to Sansa discussion everyone :)

[Lummel]

...I would be keen to include the discussion about the perception of female characters being 'badass' in this, as I think it has far-reaching implications in how REAL women are viewed as well!...

I agree about the implications but it is very ambitious, the risk is you end up generalising, unless you've got somekind of framework like a comparative reread to put it against. You could compare the TV versions with the book versions of characters I suppose.

The other thing I suppose you could look at is narratives of corruption, just thinking back to the thread about the darker turn and sense of moral threat to the stark children in particular, but it spins out from just looking at the women though.

Winter's Knight weirwood said:

I have a long memory Lummel-you did not know me but I was watching you from the shadows.

**deep sigh with extra feeling** ;)

[Winter's Knight]

I always got the impression that Sansa wasn't happy at WF, that she-unlike Arya or her brothers-did not find much outlet for her interests.

Wasn't there a bit about how isolated they were and they only had one singer come visit the?

**deep sigh with extra feeling** ;)

Look out for me,for I am of the Night.

*slinks back into darkness*

[brashcandy]

I always got the impression that Sansa wasn't happy at WF, that she-unlike Arya or her brothers-did not find much outlet for her interests.

Wasn't there a bit about how isolated they were and they only had one singer come visit the?

I don't think it was that she wasn't happy there, but she definitely longed for a more stimulating atmosphere. She talks about the singer coming to visit in AFFC when she's reminiscing about how innocent she once was and would have given anything to keep a singer around.

ETA: It's really interesting that for all the Stark children, Winterfell retains that essence of home. The other families in the books, like the Greyjoys or the Lannisters, appear to view "home" as something you inherit, a possession to fought over and won, but for the Starks it's a very different concept - one that relates to unity and family despite the minor frustrations or lack of fulfilment they found there.

[Valkyrja]

I agree about the implications but it is very ambitious, the risk is you end up generalising, unless you've got somekind of framework like a comparative reread to put it against. You could compare the TV versions with the book versions of characters I suppose.

I agree, it is probably not a good idea to bring that side of it into the thread, I guess I just meant that this was yet another reason why the topic means so much to me personally. :)

Re: Sansa at Winterfell, I always got the feeling she was not unhappy there, just wistful and full of longing for a romantic adventure and excitement. I'm sure that being surrounded by mostly brothers and the very tomboyish (there it is again!) Arya, made her feel somewhat alone in this. I'm sure there were other girls her age in or around Winterfell, but it seems to be she only ever really interacts with Jeyne Poole and her Septa. It is one of the things that I find so heart-breaking about Sansa's disillusionment with the Tyrell girls at KL --- she seemed to have hoped to have finally found some sisters that she could talk and share her hopes and dreams with, only to have this hope itself cruelly dashed before it even really began.

ETA: I agree completely about the Starks and concept of home, brashcandy! (For some reason my posts take ages to actually show up, so it keep missing things and getting behind!)

[brashcandy]

Agreed on the Tyrells, Valkyrja. You know, Sandor takes a lot of flack for his "rough" treatment of Sansa etc etc, but when we actually analyse it properly, the pain and disillusionment that Sansa endures in KL comes from people like the Tyrells and the Lannisters, the ones who at first appeared to be very nice and loving, but ended up treating her badly.

[Raksha the Demon]

I like the tomboys v lady theme a lot. Especially as right now I am really focused on the idea of the "badass" being admired. As I said, the male characters do get viewed in such a way but I think it's even more pronounced with the females. I think society in general really reinforces this idea and you see it everywhere in modern entertainment. This is why I think the show has changed Brienne's character from the book to make her more badass, and therefore more likeable. Though I know we are not supposed to mention the show on the book threads, it's this notion that is being perpetuated throughout society also informs our reading of the characters so that the subtleties and layers that GRRM has imbued them with, especially the more "feminine" ones, are overlooked.

ETA Madonna vs whore theme would work well to explore this idea too. Loving all the suggestions!

Usually, I enjoy reading more about the kickass tomboy than the little lady when it comes to little girls and young girls; but Sansa really hooked me from AGOT onward. Perhaps it's because, snob that I probably am, I enjoy reading political theater and interactions between the nobility/royalty than I like reading about mercenaries and soldiers brutalizing and slaughtering the smallfolk. Of course, the nobility and royalty can be just as thuggish and vicious, but at least they dress better while they're stabbing someone in the back metaphorically or literally, LOL. And because although I was a tomboy as a child (and hated sewing), I was more inclined to read stories like the young Sansa than muck around in the stables and kitchens like Arya. If Sansa's arc were devoid of danger, then I probably would have less interest in it; I was never a fan of Jane Austen's books. But I find her character and storyline interesting; mainly a question of how is this naive, intelligent but at times foolish, little girl going to cope with terrible circumstances and dangerous environment, not to mention survive at all with anything resembling compassion or decency left?

As has been noted, Arya and Sansa's arc resemble each other to a certain extent. I often feel like Arya and Sansa are halves of a greater whole, and each needed to learn skills that they had not been taught or just lacked. Arya tends to be too confrontational, while Sansa is not confrontational enough; Arya is impulsive/impatient while Sansa is cautious/controlled, etc.

I don't agree with people who attack Sansa for not being enough of a feminist role model, or too passive, especially compared to Arya. There are all kinds of women, and while Sansa is more passive than Arya, she is equally courageous. And I like the way GRRM has set up their paths to where they have both taken refuge by morally dubious mentors who are, exploiting them and corrupting them. I think many posters (not on this forum) tend to forget how young Sansa was in AGOT-AFFC (and Arya even younger) - girls and boys of this age are not usually capable of deciding their own destiny much less always making the right choices. They are still, emotionally and (I think) neurologically, children. Sansa and Arya should have spent these years under the tutelage of their parents, getting proper guidance as they prepared to assume the duties and burdens of Westerosi 'adulthood' - and as we all know, their proper guardians were ripped away from the sisters, leaving them alone in a very hostile world.

[Winter's Knight]

Agreed on the Tyrells, Valkyrja. You know, Sandor takes a lot of flack for his "rough" treatment of Sansa etc etc, but when we actually analyse it properly, the pain and disillusionment that Sansa endures in KL comes from people like the Tyrells and the Lannisters, the ones who at first appeared to be very nice and loving, but ended up treating her badly.

I believe the Tyrells are defendable-from their point of view, it may have looked as though Sansa had snitched to the Lannisters. And Olenna did offer her to take her to Highgarden after Joff's wedding.

[brashcandy]

They are still, emotionally and (I think) neurologically, children. Sansa and Arya should have spent these years under the tutelage of their parents, getting proper guidance as they prepared to assume the duties and burdens of Westerosi 'adulthood' - and as we all know, their proper guardians were ripped away from the sisters, leaving them alone in a very hostile world.

Hmmm :) I'm not sure if I would say they're still children emotionally.... It's a question worthy of further exploration, but with particular regard to Sansa, I think she's definitely matured, emotionally speaking, from the girl we saw in AGOT/ACOK. In an ideal world, growing up with their parents in a loving and protective environment would have been best, but how much personal development would they have undergone, expecially for Sansa, whom we could argue under the tutelage of her Septa, was being taught how to simply be a pretty, talking bird.

[Valkyrja]

I believe the Tyrells are defendable-from their point of view, it may have looked as though Sansa had snitched to the Lannisters. And Olenna did offer her to take her to Highgarden after Joff's wedding.

Regardless of the reason behind them abandoning her, the fact is that once again, Sansa found herself completely alone and isolated again in KL, and began her sad realization that people only seem to care about her for her claim, and not for herself.

[brashcandy]

I believe the Tyrells are defendable-from their point of view, it may have looked as though Sansa had snitched to the Lannisters. And Olenna did offer her to take her to Highgarden after Joff's wedding.

But that's the entire problem, isn't it? They deserted Sansa when she was given away to Tyrion, but were willing to use her again when the opportunity arose. Regardless of whether they assumed Sansa told someone or not, abandoning her during that period was pretty heartless.

[Winter's Knight]

Hmmm :) I'm not sure if I would say they're still children emotionally.... It's a question worthy of further exploration, but with particular regard to Sansa, I think she's definitely matured, emotionally speaking, from the girl we saw in AGOT/ACOK. In an ideal world, growing up with their parents in a loving and protective environment would have been best, but how much personal development would they have undergone, expecially for Sansa, whom we could argue under the tutelage of her Septa, was being taught how to simply be a pretty, talking bird.

I'd argue that her Septa's teaching ("A lady's armour is her courtesy.") has actually kept her alive. :P

Regardless of the reason behind them abandoning her, the fact is that once again, Sansa found herself completely alone and isolated again in KL, and began her sad realization that people only seem to care about her for her claim, and not for herself.

I misunderstood you, sorry. :dunce:

[Raksha the Demon]

DOUBLE POST!

[Raksha the Demon]

Hmmm :) I'm not sure if I would say they're still children emotionally.... It's a question worthy of further exploration, but with particular regard to Sansa, I think she's definitely matured, emotionally speaking, from the girl we saw in AGOT/ACOK. In an ideal world, growing up with their parents in a loving and protective environment would have been best, but how much personal development would they have undergone, expecially for Sansa, whom we could argue under the tutelage of her Septa, was being taught how to simply be a pretty, talking bird.

I do think that a 12-year-old person is a child; also an 11-year-old, and a 13-year-old too; even if the person has gone through puberty; the person is not an adult and is not yet capable of making adult decisions. I do think that Sansa has matured a lot since the silly little girl mooning over her golden prince in AGOT; but she's not an adult yet. Unfortunately, the decisions that both Sansa and Arya have had to make and are still forced to make will not wait until they are 18 or 20.

[brashcandy]

I do think that a 12-year-old person is a child; also an 11-year-old, and a 13-year-old too; even if the person has gone through puberty; the person is not an adult and is not yet capable of making adult decisions. I do think that Sansa has matured a lot since the silly little girl mooning over her golden prince in AGOT; but she's not an adult yet. Unfortunately, the decisions that both Sansa and Arya have had to make and are still forced to make will not wait until they are 18 or 20.

Well, technically speaking, every 11/12/13 yr old is still a child. But Sansa's experiences have taken her away from that world of children, and I can't say that she inhabits that space emotionally any more. I'm not simply talking about her not being the silly girl mooning over Loras and Joff either. She's undergone significant changes in how she looks at the world and her place in it.

[Lyanna Stark]

I believe the Tyrells are defendable-from their point of view, it may have looked as though Sansa had snitched to the Lannisters. And Olenna did offer her to take her to Highgarden after Joff's wedding.

This is true, and in the end the Tyrells are loyal to the Tyrells, but they really were planning on using Sansa purely from their own gain. Had she only had Jeyne Poole's status as nobly born, but not a High lord's daughter, they would not have looked twice at her, so their motives were far from altruistic.

Well, technically speaking, every 11/12/13 yr old is still a child. But Sansa's experiences have taken her away from that world of children, and I can't say that she inhabits that space emotionally any more. I'm not simply talking about her not being the silly girl mooning over Loras and Joff either. She's undergone significant changes in how she looks at the world and her place in it.

Indeed. I think the same can be said for all the Stark children we see as POV characters: they are forced to take on adult responsibilities very very early. As Jon Snow keeps reminding us "Kill the boy and let the man be born". This is true for Sansa, Arya and Bran as well to different degrees, but they are all faced with things that nobody their age should have to be faced with.