From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Lyanna Stark]

This is when Tyrion tells Bronn about his first marriage, walking with him down from the Eyrie, it would take time to find the precise quote but Tysha was the reason that annullment of marriages got ever mentioned in the books at all.

And precisely because those contract obligations are the root of so much misery Martin will show us that the final destiny will be made by the characters' CONSCIOUS decisions to go separate ways or to stay together for political reasons or emotional links.

May I remind you here that divorce does not exist in Westeros? Tyrion and Sansa cannot make a conscious decision to go separate ways for this very reason. Nor can Littlefinger marry Sansa himself, or have her marry Harry the Heir unless the previous marriage is annulled, declared void since one of the participants was already married or by Tyrion's death.

[Woman of War]

Agree, i cannot find the quote right now but I remember that it was there somewhere. Maybe Varys mentioned it. I guess the story itself is so shocking and sad that the minor details fade somehow but somewhere it was written, maybe someone else can help out.

Still I am very sure that Tyrion and Sansa will not stay together against their will. I mean, why should they?! And Tyrion will surely not kick Sansa in the ass and send her on the road in case she has nowhere to go, or lock her up in the cellar to prevent her from leaving. As I said, if they do not want to stay together they will go separate ways, married or not. It is as simple as that.

[Woman of War]

Ok, Lyanna, Martin will make his lawyer jokes about annullment lawyers.

And no one, not even in Westeros, can force two people to live under the same roof if they both don't want, starvation and cold might though. If the husband agrees, I guess in Westeros he has to formally, the wife can go wherever she wants and both could happily fornicate with someone else and only meet once a year for a glass of mulled wine.

Even after all those wars a Lannister might have enough revenue to finance two households, at least on a moderate level. Survival may be sheer happiness after all that! So both can agree to stay together or precisely not.

[butterbumps!]




<snip>

There's a perception that the show is perpetuating, and it seems that readers also perpetuate in their love/hate for characters, that being a "badass" is awesome and to be admired. The next step in this thought process seems to be that you have to sometimes do cruel or coldhearted things to be a 'badass" but that's cool if it was in revenge or justice for betrayal. Who doesn't want someone who's been hurt or betrayed to get some form of revenge? But I find that I am having a hard time with this. Sure someone who is badass might be admirable, but that's not the only way someone can be admired.

Furthermore, I don't think doing something that is overly cruel or heartless even if it is in revenge or retaliation of something else that was cruel makes someone an admirable "badass". Someone who is feminine and into womanly pursuits can be just as admirable. I explained this a lot better on the nitpick thread for episode 10 if anyone is interested.

Anyway, while I think that the idea of a badass being admirable holds true for male characters too, I think it is even more pronounced for the female characters and informs a lot of the Sansa/Cat hate. As for the Dany hate since ADWD, this could explain that too. She was better liked in the other books where she did some real badass stuff. In ADWD Dany mostly just sits around feeling helpless and somewhat ineffectual (which is also how she was portrayed on the show this season while she was in Qarth, and was a big deviation from book Dany), ie. not doing anything, which is the opposite of the badass.


I agree with much of this, and to add, I’m flummoxed by the continued determination of “badass” as a positive thing. In fact, I think nearly all of the acts thought to be “badass” are usually those I find distasteful and pointless.

To back up for a second, I want to say that while I do like the women who do not conform to typical “feminine” roles, this admiration has nothing to do with being “badass” or the “tomboyishness” itself. For me, it’s far less about bucking gender roles and wielding a sword, but more about underlying virtues that are expressed variously as either “feminine” or “tomboy.” The traits I favor in any character are discipline, self-control, kindness, and reasonableness. To this end, I see Sansa and Arya’s arc to be nearly identical and worthy of equal praise, see both Cat and Brienne as equally commendable, and also why I am not as favorable toward Dany (please don’t hate me for that :blush:).

To illustrate a bit, Arya is the character that sometimes made me sigh and wish she could be less vengeful and myopic in her view, and I actually grew to respect her much more as she became more disciplined and gained perspective through her travails. For me, her journey is not so much “super cool deadly assassin,” but the path toward incredible competency, and about seeing the world for what it is- “look with your eyes.” I would also add that Arya’s self control, discipline and “seeing with your eyes” are precisely the same reasons I find Sansa so admirable. This is not an Arya thread, so I don’t want to derail further, but my point is that I think it’s beneficial to understanding characters by looking beyond the overt expressions of “badassery” to the core evolution of the character in question.

I know a few pages upthread Brashcandy (I think) suggested the benefits of doing an Arya reread. I would love to second this idea, and would add that it would be fantastic to do even a “major women of Westeros” thread. (I would love to open this myself, but I’m involved in another re-read project, and don’t think I could do it full justice.) It truly does seem that reader perception of the female characters are divided along the lines of whether they are “feminine” (i.e. subtle evolutions + “inaction”) or “tomboy” (i.e. overt and “badass”). I think that looking beyond the outward expression of how these women exercise their strength to the underlying motivations and traits would be incredibly beneficial to exorcise the ongoing favoritism of the “tomboys.” The admirable women share much more than seems obvious I think.

Anyway, excellent work everyone who’s been getting into these issues here.

[Winter's Knight]

I agree with much of this, and to add, I’m flummoxed by the continued determination of “badass” as a positive thing. In fact, I think nearly all of the acts thought to be “badass” are usually those I find distasteful and pointless.

To back up for a second, I want to say that while I do like the women who do not conform to typical “feminine” roles, this admiration has nothing to do with being “badass” or the “tomboyishness” itself. For me, it’s far less about bucking gender roles and wielding a sword, but more about underlying virtues that are expressed variously as either “feminine” or “tomboy.” The traits I favor in any character are discipline, self-control, kindness, and reasonableness. To this end, I see Sansa and Arya’s arc to be nearly identical and worthy of equal praise, see both Cat and Brienne as equally commendable, and also why I am not as favorable toward Dany (please don’t hate me for that :blush:).

To illustrate a bit, Arya is the character that sometimes made me sigh and wish she could be less vengeful and myopic in her view, and I actually grew to respect her much more as she became more disciplined and gained perspective through her travails. For me, her journey is not so much “super cool deadly assassin,” but the path toward incredible competency, and about seeing the world for what it is- “look with your eyes.” I would also add that Arya’s self control, discipline and “seeing with your eyes” are precisely the same reasons I find Sansa so admirable. This is not an Arya thread, so I don’t want to derail further, but my point is that I think it’s beneficial to understanding characters by looking beyond the overt expressions of “badassery” to the core evolution of the character in question.

I know a few pages upthread Brashcandy (I think) suggested the benefits of doing an Arya reread. I would love to second this idea, and would add that it would be fantastic to do even a “major women of Westeros” thread. (I would love to open this myself, but I’m involved in another re-read project, and don’t think I could do it full justice.) It truly does seem that reader perception of the female characters are divided along the lines of whether they are “feminine” (i.e. subtle evolutions + “inaction”) or “tomboy” (i.e. overt and “badass”). I think that looking beyond the outward expression of how these women exercise their strength to the underlying motivations and traits would be incredibly beneficial to exorcise the ongoing favoritism of the “tomboys.” The admirable women share much more than seems obvious I think.

Anyway, excellent work everyone who’s been getting into these issues here.

My finals end this Friday-I'd love to do this if anyone else is interested?

[1234567]

Both Brash and I have chatted about doing an Arya re-read. I think (don't want to confirm for someone else) that neither of us have time at the moment, and just from my experience of the Sansa re-read, it is a lot of work. Most chapters and analysis went between 2000- occasionally 5000 words.

I would love to re-read and comment on it if someone wants to start it though!

[Sand11751]

ETA. The fact of the matter is Sansa is responsible for 75% of what goes down at Westeros, specifically her parents death. Ned had no problem with dying, his sons and wife were outside KL, Arya was nowhere to be seen, but who was standing right there being held at Lannister swordpoint? Her mother destroyed her son's nation and her honor for Sansa's freedom (her story went downhill fast after that). Even if Sansa doesn't know this, she owes justice/vengance/revenge to her father soon to be in the tombs and to her zombie mother that's not even allowed to RIP

The moment Ned trusted LF and Cersei to act honorably, his fate was sealed. Sansa confirmed what Cersei knew after Ned confronted her. Sansa coming to her is a minor assist to a plan already set in motion. LF had decided ages ago to screw the Starks, setting traps the Starks fell into nicely.

As for Cat trying to get her daughters back in her arms, no less should be expected from a woman weighed down by grief over her murdered husband and young sons: she had to secure the remaining family she has or try her damnedest. To blame Sansa for the result is a real stretch when Cat's killing had nothing to do with Sansa and everything to do with Robb's choices.

[Winter's Knight]

Both Brash and I have chatted about doing an Arya re-read. I think (don't want to confirm for someone else) that neither of us have time at the moment, and just from my experience of the Sansa re-read, it is a lot of work. Most chapters and analysis went between 2000- occasionally 5000 words.

I would love to re-read and comment on it if someone wants to start it though!

If you, Lyanna and the other awesome folks could re-read and comment on my analysis, I could do a Women of Westoros reread :D

[Lyanna Stark]

If you, Lyanna and the other awesome folks could re-read and comment on my analysis, I could do a Women of Westoros reread :D

I'd be honoured to comment if you want to do a re-read, or help out. :)

[brashcandy]

Both Brash and I have chatted about doing an Arya re-read. I think (don't want to confirm for someone else) that neither of us have time at the moment, and just from my experience of the Sansa re-read, it is a lot of work. Most chapters and analysis went between 2000- occasionally 5000 words.

I would love to re-read and comment on it if someone wants to start it though!

Yes :) We talked about doing it a few months from now, when our schedule clears. The major women in Westeros thread sounds like a great idea though. Anyone interested in teaming up with Winter's Knight?

[brashcandy]

So it's Lyanna and WK then? :)

[Winter's Knight]

So it's Lyanna and WK then? :)

THE Lyanna Stark? :bowdown:

*swoons*

[Valkyrja]

I too will happily participate, but don't have the time to run one myself. :)

[Gingerly Grumkin]

LeDauphin: Jon Connington is very unlikely to approve of the idea, though. He does not like the Starks at all, from Lyanna to Ned. Moreover, the plan is firmly to marry Dany to Aegon (as makes sense!). If the plan fails, it will likely be because Aegon has other ideas and I guess the most likely source for such ideas would be the actual presence of a pretty woman who also happens to bring an army with her.

Thinking of Arianne Martell

Since Sansa isn't going to just happen to meet Aegon and it isn't even known if she is still alive, I don't know where Aegon would get the idea to drop the Dany plan for her.

We should only talk about Sansa or Roslin Frey's unborn, hopefully soon to be dead, child here. Start (or revive) a Blackfyre thread and I'll comment

I'm going to have to comment on this too.

An 11yo prisoner is responsible for what numerous other adults do? With that sort of power maybe Sansa is the THE GREAT OTHER (da da da dum!).

Sorry, Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin I'm not trying to be mean but seriously 75%? Can't we blame GRRM just a little bit for making his females characters so unsympathetic?.

When did I say I'm not sympathetic to Sansa

WTF ??? 75%, no less ? :blink:

Like Gregor's and Vargo's pillaging and raping and murdering, the Battle of Blackwater, the siege of Riverrun, plotting in Dorne, Renly's death, riots in Kings Landing, and so on ?

You know why it is called the War of the Five Kings ? Because there are multiple factions. Do you really think Stannis or the Ironborn are influenced in any way by little Sansa's actions, even very indirectly ?

And her parents death, seriously ? Let's see :

Ned :

You say yourself that Ned did not care for death (to the point that he revealed his plans to his ennemies...) Sansa disclosed hers and Arya's escape plans to Cercei, but :

- Even without Sansa, Cercei would still have captured Ned, LF having secured the gold cloaks for her and Ned having nicely disclosed his intentions

- Cercei did not want to kill Ned, only to send him to the Wall

- Ned's death was Joff's doing, propably on LF's suggestion

Cat :

- Cat was killed by Freys

- Freys killed Cat because Robb married Jeyne

- Robb married Jeyne because of his hormones and because he was mad with grief after learning his brothers were dead

- His brothers were believed dead because of Theon's betrayal and Ramsay's machinations

How is any of that Sansa's fault ? :huh:

Cat's death isn't on Sansa your right, Ned's was. But mayhaps 75% is alot, I do think it's more then 50% though...

-Ned was offered to be Hand of the King, 9 out of 10 times you have to accept it. But he still could have declined, however throw Sansa & Joff in the pot and Ned has to go south

- Ned was aware of his sister in laws letter and mayhaps suspected Bran's fall, but it was Lady's death that made Ned distrust the Lannisters

- Also when Lady died Joff truly became a monster, he may have always been but Cersei said that's when shit hit the fan

-Sansa said "he's nothing like his drunken father!" Thusly causing Ned to be aware of the twincest

- She told Cersei about Ned's plans to depart which caused Robert's death

- She was on the dais when Ned lost his life, I doubt he would confess those treasons if she wasn't there

- I don't think she caused that many world wide politics during ACOK, short of the end when Cat freed Jaime for her

-Was married to Tyrion Lannister causing Tysha's marriage to truly be a sham (prob not world wide politics there lol)

- Because of her marriage Jon Snow was legitimized

- And lastly Joff died! (causing her husband to get arrested, causing Red Viper to die, causing the Sand Snakes to wild out, causing the crowning of Queen Myrcella, causing her to get her face broken

- Not true, one more thing after that, she was also responsible for her Lysa Arryn's death

I'm not saying that Sansa did this on purpose, I'm not saying she is a bad guy. But despite being a preteen girl who has never met a Martell and only one Greyjoy, she has changed the face of Westeros by more then 50%

[butterbumps!]

Yes :) We talked about doing it a few months from now, when our schedule clears. The major women in Westeros thread sounds like a great idea though. Anyone interested in teaming up with Winter's Knight?

Depending on what form this takes, I'd be more than happy to contribute too (a complete re read of all the major women might be a bit ambitious time-wise for me, though).

[Winter's Knight]

Depending on what form this takes, I'd be more than happy to contribute too (a complete re read of all the major women might be a bit ambitious time-wise for me, though).

What I'm planning is, at the usual rate of two chapters a week, I'd post an analysis for each female PoV from GoT and include stray observations about how non-PoV women are spoken of in the men's PoVs.

[Lyanna Stark]

THE Lyanna Stark? :bowdown:

*swoons*

:blushing:

I have never done a re-read project in that capacity tho, so I have no idea if I will be any good at it (nor keep the deadlines :P )

Depending on what form this takes, I'd be more than happy to contribute too (a complete re read of all the major women might be a bit ambitious time-wise for me, though).

We could try to limit it at least initially to perhaps "the ones that aren't Sansa or Dany" since they have been done fairly recently (or perhaps even do Arya separately since she has a lot of chapters), or start with say, Cat and Brienne since they show up first outside of the Big Three Dany, Sansa and Arya. I agree that covering all the women of Westeros in one re-read would probably be really overwhelming. :)

[Winter's Knight]

:blushing:

I have never done a re-read project in that capacity tho, so I have no idea if I will be any good at it (nor keep the deadlines :P )

We could try to limit it at least initially to perhaps "the ones that aren't Sansa or Dany" since they have been done fairly recently (or perhaps even do Arya separately since she has a lot of chapters), or start with say, Cat and Brienne since they show up first outside of the Big Three Dany, Sansa and Arya. I agree that covering all the women of Westeros in one re-read would probably be really overwhelming. :)

Shall we do a Cat/Cersei/Brienne reread?

Or how about a Mothers of Westoros-theme?

[Lummel]

...I know a few pages upthread Brashcandy (I think) suggested the benefits of doing an Arya reread. I would love to second this idea, and would add that it would be fantastic to do even a “major women of Westeros” thread...

Hmm there's a lot to be said for an Arya reread - much admired but little understood maybe?

But a major women of westeros would be awkward to pull off I think without a strong theme, I don't know, power and authority maybe, or negoitiating a man's world? something like that. Plus their spread in the narrative is uneven: Catelyn only up to end of ASOS, Cersei only from AFFC, Brienne only in AFFC, Dany doesn't get that many chapters until ADWD...

Effectively without a central theme to build around you could end up just having a series of re-reads, which is no bad thing, but we might all end up working harder to join the dots and make connections. :dunno:

[brashcandy]

Depending on what form this takes, I'd be more than happy to contribute too (a complete re read of all the major women might be a bit ambitious time-wise for me, though).

Yes, I'll be contributing happily :) I don't know how WK and Lyanna would organize it, but I've always been interested in having a close analysis done of the older generation of women in Westeros vs. the new ones we're getting to know intimately, and the choices/options/decisions they had to make, along with the changes that are now occurring in Westeros and how it will all impact on these women's lives.