From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Lyanna Stark]

. But I do think Martin has kept the question open for a reason and I'm always mindful of that scene between her and LF in ASOS when he asks her if she's fond of games, and she begins to say it would depend on something, but is cut off when Grisel appears. What would it depend on honestly? Since Sansa has come into contact with LF, he's repeatedly told her about the "game", or the "only game that matters" etc etc. We know the game is very important to Petyr - it's what he strives on, and in a very real sense he's playing the game for the game itself. But we have had no such declaration of love for the game by Sansa, and any involvement she's had in Petyr's schemes have been about ensuring her identity remains hidden. Perhaps TWOW will open and we'll see Sansa taking to these kinds of machinations like a duck to water, but I for one would be very surprised.

Indeed. The big question here is whether or not she will adopt some of Littlefinger's ambition and ruthlessness and perhaps she will. I think it could actually serve her well, but again, it is a risk that needs to be balanced against her not loosing sight of who she is and what she wants for herself. Naked ambition for the sake of it I'd think a very tragic end for Sansa's character. It would mean she'll end up as Littlefinger: the once upon a time idealist who has completely forsaken moral for his own gain, but still isn't happy or content.

I think she shows in AFFC that she likes puzzling things out. Before, Sansa has first just been told how to act and how to speak, in Kings Landing she had to try her best to just live under the radar, but now she has encouragement and a chance to actually apply her intellect and skills at solving problems for the first time. In AGOT we saw how proud Sansa was at figuring out who Renly and Barristan were, so I think she likes the feeling of solving puzzles and figuring things out. She clearly feels pleased with herself when she figures out LF's little games.

I doubt that alone is enough for her to take to the Game as a duck to water though. She still needs to get better at it for her own survival's sake, but that doesn't mean she'll ever be playing the Game solely for personal gain.

[Kittykatknits]

It's not exclusive, I want Sansa to get revenge becasue she deseves it, she doesn't want revenge as of now i agree (because every time Cersei's name is mentioned Sansa starts to shake like her cousion, poor scared girl.

The way I see her home in contrast to revenge is like this Robb put on a crown to free his sisters and kill the Lannisters. Sansa will free her brothers and kill the Lannisters and in the process get to be queen. It's like what Davos said to Stannis "your putting your carriage infront of the horse" or something like that

This thread is moving to fast for me to keep up with everything but I did want to comment on the idea of Sansa getting revenge because she deserves it. I really think this runs counter to one of the points that Martin is trying to say with his books. Dany has mentioned "The usurper's dogs" on more than one occasion leaving the impression that she wants her own form of vengeance. But, Jon, Robert, Ned, Tywin, Hoster are all dead. The BRB now exists largely for vengeance and we saw Thoros in Feast questioning their purpose. The Lannisters seem to be causing their own doom just fine without help from either Sansa or any other Stark. Now, the North is looking for its own revenge with winter and starvation looming over them. One of EB's points about Sandor is that he lived a life fueled by hate and the needed for revenge.

Beyond that, revenge is not a value that Ned Stark espouses. He displays compassion to his enemies,a trait that Sansa shares with him. Their house words are "Winter is Coming", a very powerful reminder to always be aware of the bigger picture. Catelyn also reminded Robb that vengeance will not bring their father back nor will it bring back any of the others killed by Lannister hands.

It seems to me that Sansa living the life that she wants, on her own terms, and helping her siblings to do the same is more than enough is and can be its own best revenge.

[brashcandy]

Indeed. The big question here is whether or not she will adopt some of Littlefinger's ambition and ruthlessness and perhaps she will. I think it could actually serve her well, but again, it is a risk that needs to be balanced against her not loosing sight of who she is and what she wants for herself. Naked ambition for the sake of it I'd think a very tragic end for Sansa's character. It would mean she'll end up as Littlefinger: the once upon a time idealist who has completely forsaken moral for his own gain, but still isn't happy or content.

This is true. What we've seen in AFFC is that Sansa isn't afraid of taking a hard line when it comes to ensuring her survival. She can be manipulative and tell lies when necessary. She can even take calculated risks as we see when she meets with the Lords Declarant or advises the maester to give Sweetrobin more medicine to get him safely down the Mountain. At the end of AFFC however, LF is asking her to move from the realm of doing what is necessary to survive, into a place where she's now going to be have to be an active participant in securing the demise of her cousin, and the affection of another suitor. These are pretty big moves to make. Sansa was able to rationalise Marillion taking the fall for LF because he was a despicable man, but how can she in good conscience do the same with Sweetrobin? And how can she fake a romance with a boy who represents the type she's no longer interested in?

ETA : The faking bit might not be so difficult if her performance with the knights meeting with LF is anything to go by, but will she really want to lead on another person like this?

[Grail King]

OK, I'm at work so I can't go through 3 more pages but the Sansa hate even took GRRM by surprise and he stated so, he also stated the Starks are Heros.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

This thread is moving to fast for me to keep up with everything but I did want to comment on the idea of Sansa getting revenge because she deserves it. I really think this runs counter to one of the points that Martin is trying to say with his books. Dany has mentioned "The usurper's dogs" on more than one occasion leaving the impression that she wants her own form of vengeance. But, Jon, Robert, Ned, Tywin, Hoster are all dead. The BRB now exists largely for vengeance and we saw Thoros in Feast questioning their purpose. The Lannisters seem to be causing their own doom just fine without help from either Sansa or any other Stark. Now, the North is looking for its own revenge with winter and starvation looming over them. One of EB's points about Sandor is that he lived a life fueled by hate and the needed for revenge.

Beyond that, revenge is not a value that Ned Stark espouses. He displays compassion to his enemies,a trait that Sansa shares with him. Their house words are "Winter is Coming", a very powerful reminder to always be aware of the bigger picture. Catelyn also reminded Robb that vengeance will not bring their father back nor will it bring back any of the others killed by Lannister hands.

It seems to me that Sansa living the life that she wants, on her own terms, and helping her siblings to do the same is more than enough is and can be its own best revenge.

That's a good point about Dany, lol they really are all dead. And I agree that Ned does not seek revenge due to his stupidityand and his hard life, he brought down the Targaryens because of honor and friendship and tried to bring the Lannisters down for the same reasons.

However Ned is not the only Stark. Wolf's blood runs threw all of their veins (dead bran and rickon, Arya). Winter Is Coming is a great motto, like you said it represents the big picture and the future making it as honorable as The Arryns, but it also backs up there strength like the Baratheons and lastly it talks smack like the Targaryens. I think of it like this, Ned died in the end of summer, Robb died in autumn and the Red dudes are burning everything in sight. But the white bird has just arrived in Kingslanding, the Others are back to life, its time for the Starks to reappear. Winter is Coming. And to say that Cat did not want revenge is wrong. She did everything she could for revenge, short of slicing Jaimes throat. When Greyjoy killed the boys Cat gave up hope on revenge and was forced to commit treson for the miniscule hope of Sansa's freedom.

Having said all this, my mind's not concrete about revenge, though she deserves it. If Sansa pardons Cersei I would be ecstatic, but she must be in the postion to pardon her

ETA. What's your stance on Cersei's prophecy? Is Sansa not the younger more beautifull queen?

[Valkyrja]

That's a good point about Dany, lol they really are all dead. And I agree that Ned does not seek revenge due to his stupidity and and his hard life, he brought down the Targaryens because of honor and friendship and tried to bring the Lannisters down for the same reasons.

I take issue with the idea that Ned or anyone for that matter is stupid because they don't want to take revenge. Revenge itself is not automatically a smart move......many times it can horribly backfire, or it can consume one's life, cloud one's judgement, etc. I don't think it is *stupid* if someone decides not to let revenge rule their existence.

Also, I feel that Arya is already the Stark whose storyline is about revenge.... Bran, Jon, and Sansa have their own journeys thus far, and Rickon is as yet unknown. Of course, Sansa may get on board the revenge wagon, but at this point I don't see her having that as a goal, nor do I think she is stupid for not focusing on vengeance.

[Fragile Bird]

Yes. Every option you come up with have been options Sansa doesn't want herself. I don't want Sansa to be queen because Sansa doesn't want to be queen. I want Dany to be queen because Dany wants to be queen. This is really, really simple and straight forward. Dany also wants to bear a living child, Sansa wants to be loved for herself and not for her claim. This is stated over and over again in their POVS, I am not sure how anyone can miss it.

<snip>

The main objection I have with your statements is that none of them are near what Sansa herself has stated that she wants.

The problem with this statement is that we don't always get what we want, and the fact that the character doesn't want something to happen certainly has never stopped George Martin from having things happen to his characters that they would not have wanted. God in this situation is George R.R. Martin, not the people on this thread. I think it is perfectly valid for people to want things for characters that neither the characters nor other readers want, and to shut down those opinions is a diservice. I also think it's perfectly reasonable to tell people why you disagree with them, and very valid to tell people that they are treading in offensive territory and why what they said was offensive. But please, enough with veiled threats.

I think if we were talking at the end of ACOK, many people here would not have been thrilled with seeing Sansa married off to Tyrion, involved in a murder plot, carried off to the Vale, and be in the power and control of LF. Those are choices made by the author, and we've all rolled with them because we are the readers. Guess what? Sansa may be married to Harry the Heir in the next book, surprise, surprise, and we will all roll with it. :D

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I take issue with the idea that Ned or anyone for that matter is stupid because they don't want to take revenge. Revenge itself is not automatically a smart move......many times it can horribly backfire, or it can consume one's life, cloud one's judgement, etc. I don't think it is *stupid* if someone decides not to let revenge rule their existence.

Also, I feel that Arya is already the Stark whose storyline is about revenge.... Bran, Jon, and Sansa have their own journeys thus far, and Rickon is as yet unknown. Of course, Sansa may get on board the revenge wagon, but at this point I don't see her having that as a goal, nor do I think she is stupid for not focusing on vengeance.

I didn't mean it like that, I meant that stupidity and having a hard life are two main characteristics of his. However these reasons were not the reasons why he avanged his father/brother, he did everything (in AGOT also) becasue of his love for Robert.

I think having revenge in your grasp and letting it slip is sublime, though I doubt that Sansa would do it.

It's true that Bran doesn't seem like he wants revenge by the way he was chatting it up with Theon but who knows for sure.

I respect the honor of house Stark and the honor of Lady Sansa, revenge is the only plausible way I see of this happening. I just don't want Sansa to act like a Martell and wait a whole generation for her honor back

[Lyanna Stark]

The problem with this statement is that we don't always get what we want, and the fact that the character doesn't want something to happen certainly has never stopped George Martin from having things happen to his characters that they would not have wanted. God in this situation is George R.R. Martin, not the people on this thread. I think it is perfectly valid for people to want things for characters that neither the characters nor other readers want, and to shut down those opinions is a diservice. I also think it's perfectly reasonable to tell people why you disagree with them, and very valid to tell people that they are treading in offensive territory and why what they said was offensive. But please, enough with veiled threats.

This has nothing to do with that we don't always get what we want and far more to do with people actively wishing for something a character clearly does not, which in turn, following logic, would make that character quite unhappy. Not to mention it would go against what has been the main development of her storyline so far.

As I stated, wishing for Sansa to get stuck in yet another arranged marriage, for instance, is to a. deny her the agency she has been seeking and b. to wish what is explicitly against her own wishes. Another example is that the poster suggested she engage in kinslaying, which would exemplify a complete moral collapse.

I'd also be extremely disappointed if Sansa ends up married with Harry the Heir since it would devalue her development and once again put her in a position without agency and where she has no point but to put up with suffering. It would make me question the point of what GRRM wishes to say with her character, it would break the parallels with Arya's arc which has been a strong theme throughout and it would break the subversion of the damsel in distress trope.

Me having an objection to their statement does not mean that I forbid them to speak or are making threats, which you seem to infer.

In informal logic an objection (also called expostulation or refutation), is a reason arguing against a premise, lemma or main contention.

You can of course argue that GRRM is a misanthrope and that the characters will all end up in unhappy situations, which is perfectly fine, but if we're going by the definition of bittersweet as exemplified by LOTR, that's not going to be the case.

[Valkyrja]

I didn't mean it like that, I meant that stupidity and having a hard life are two main characteristics of his. However these reasons were not the reasons why he avanged his father/brother, he did everything (in AGOT also) becasue of his love for Robert.

I think having revenge in your grasp and letting it slip is sublime, though I doubt that Sansa would do it.

It's true that Bran doesn't seem like he wants revenge by the way he was chatting it up with Theon but who knows for sure.

I respect the honor of house Stark and the honor of Lady Sansa, revenge is the only plausible way I see of this happening. I just don't want Sansa to act like a Martell and wait a whole generation for her honor back

I think there is a distinction between wanting revenge and wanting justice. I'm not saying that the Starks don't want revenge or shouldn't take revenge -- it all depends on the circumstances -- but I do think there is a distinction between tthe two. Just putting that out there. :)

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Another example is that the poster suggested she engage in kinslaying, which would exemplify a complete moral collapse.

The Poster :D . Why is it a moral collapse? You can't be talking about murder, Ned Stark killed some dude in the first chapter! So is it that kin slaying is wrong? Like the Karstarks? The Freys killed everyone, why should they rule the Riverlands? I think the complete moral collapse would be not avenging her parents and not rebuilding her brother's kingdom

ETA. The fact of the matter is Sansa is responsible for 75% of what goes down at Westeros, specifically her parents death. Ned had no problem with dying, his sons and wife were outside KL, Arya was nowhere to be seen, but who was standing right there being held at Lannister swordpoint? Her mother destroyed her son's nation and her honor for Sansa's freedom (her story went downhill fast after that). Even if Sansa doesn't know this, she owes justice/vengance/revenge to her father soon to be in the tombs and to her zombie mother that's not even allowed to RIP

I think there is a distinction between wanting revenge and wanting justice. I'm not saying that the Starks don't want revenge or shouldn't take revenge -- it all depends on the circumstances -- but I do think there is a distinction between tthe two. Just putting that out there. :)

Mayhaps there is, but it's a small distinction like Slave=Serf or hostage=guest or betrothed=whored out. :dunno:

ETA

@Brashcandy, nice avatar. She looks really fucking vengful though :D lol

[Valkyrja]

Mayhaps there is, but it's a small distinction like Slave=Serf or hostage=guest or betrothed=whored out. :dunno:

The two can and do overlap. I think it makes a difference regarding a character's motivations, though.

[brashcandy]

I think if we were talking at the end of ACOK, many people here would not have been thrilled with seeing Sansa married off to Tyrion, involved in a murder plot, carried off to the Vale, and be in the power and control of LF. Those are choices made by the author, and we've all rolled with them because we are the readers. Guess what? Sansa may be married to Harry the Heir in the next book, surprise, surprise, and we will all roll with it. :D

I think it's relevant to be able to chart a character's experiences and development, and thereby arrive at some tentative expectations for that character's arc. Obviously, none of us knows what Martin will eventually do with Sansa's arc in a specific manner, but we can still trace the pattern he's set already - both in foreshadowing and in characterization. If TWOW comes around and Sansa turns into a kinslaying opportunist, I wouldn't be one of those readers comfortable with just "rolling" with it. And whilst a marriage to Harry the Heir might happen, as Lyanna Stark noted, it would be undermining Sansa's growth towards greater agency and autonomy in her life. Right now, Sansa seems poised to break away from the mould LF is creating around her, and I do think it's why her experiences in ACOK/ASOS were so beneficial. She's been there and to some extent she's done that: she's been the pawn, she's been the unhappy wife, she might already be in love, etc etc. She's not a blank slate or a puppet that LF can operate at will. Martin has to be true to the story he's built in these 4 books.

[Grail King]

How I see it:

Sansa and Sandor are an enigma to each other: he's crude,rude and socially unacceptable to Sansa, yet he's the one most chivalrous to her; does he care about her? yes he does, is it a love bond type? I don't think so, not yet anyway and I based this on the books and the TV series in the books and series he wants her to open her eyes get street smart but she is too damn trusting he wants to protect her as he could not protect his sister.

She is innocent, naive, selfish, and smart in all studies but math ( who isn't ) who was trained to marry and have babies and believe in the fairy tale this makes her the butt of jokes and drives Sandor nuts, but also makes her an easy target for Cersei, Joff and Littlefinger but her training in courtly things also makes her an enigma to all in KL as she learned to reign in her emotions to all but Sandor which baffles him further because she can verbally challenge him but she can't see the forest for the trees he's showing her.

Should Sansa gone with him? No! not in the state of mind he's in, also knowing what we know up to this point it would have been disastrous for both of them and Sansa knows this . Sandor needs to rethink his life where Sansa grew up protected and loved Sandor grew up in a dysfunctional household (though he had naive tendencies himself ) a sadistic brother who may have killed his entire family and I'm pretty sure he killed his sister and I think this torments Sandor still as he could not protect her from Gregor.

Could this relationship work in the future, I don't know but if we talk 6 or 7 years in Sansa would be 20ish and have gone through more emotions than many women would in their lifetime, by that time Sandor may have been healed but may not be the man she needs or wants but she be old enough to make a valid decision and if she decides yes than it's no different than many May - December relationships.

As far as Sansa not wanting to be Queen, we all want to choose our paths in life but if these books are to reflect real life than in Sansa's world she may have to do the Queen thing if it is best for the realm or her family whether she wants to or not. From a story line why is GRRM providing all the political knowledge to her and she is actually using it if not to be a political player. Sansa doesn't need to be as ruthless as Cersei or Littlefinger and from what I see the Starks have always been honorable, their people would follow them to hell and back what they lack is political astuteness and I do believe it will be Sansa if not as Queen then like the QOT where she becomes her family's political adviser and watch dog and possibly be the great resuscitation of House Stark.

Brienne and Sansa, at this point nothing points this way, Brienne was emotionally tied to Renly, no where are we giving hints to her wanting to do a threesome with Renly and Margry or her saying anything in her POV on her wanting to do a female.

Sansa still wants puppies and kids nothing in her POV showing emotional ties to woman but her mother, could it happen sure, again when she's 20ish .

I added nothing to this discussion just my take, and to reiterate my feelings I want House Stark to come back stronger, I want Sansa to take it all for me that's the best revenge, you took off our head but our body and soul came back stronger.

[brashcandy]

He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

People can make up their minds whether Sansa is in love or not, but that's pure lovesickness there folks. :)

[Wouter]

What do people here think about (probably fake) Aegon and Sansa? Many here seem convinced Sansa will want to stay away from any arranged marriage and succeed (not that I would mind; it remains to be seen if GRRM would give Sansa an outright positive ending though). However, I was under the impression that at least some in this particular crowd also saw Sansa as a likely candidate for the "younger queen" prophecy, usually through marrying Aegon (sometimes as queen in the north in her own right - looks unlikely to me).

Still, marrying Aegon would undoubtedly also be a result of bartering by LF and/or Varys so do most people in this thread reject this notion/possibility as well on the grounds of it being another arranged marriage, regardless of what they think about Aegon's chances to survive and even thrive once Dany finally appears to do some "slaying of lies"?

And consequently, is Sansa not seen as a valable candidate for Cersei's prophecy around here, if the answer to a possible future Aegon/Sansa plot is "reject" (as: GRRM is not gonna write it)?

Personally I don't view an Aegon-Sansa union as likely at all but it used to be a popular notion on the board at least until some time ago (and still may be for all I know).

[Valkyrja]

I worry that Aegon will not make it through the winter, or even through the next book. I really have no idea where GRRM is going with his storyline, but for some reason I feel a sense of doom from Jon C's chapters. If Sansa married Aegon, I'd be concerned for her own longevity. There is also the fact that she is still legally married to Tyrion, and we have to remember that of all the people from Westeros they could have encountered, Aegon and Jon C have met Tyrion. They know he was alive and in Essos, at least the last they saw of him.

Edited for clarity. Meant to say "will NOT make it through the winter" gah.

[brashcandy]

@Wouter, I used to think that the Sansa-Aegon match was a possibility for a while, but after having done the re-read, along with thinking more about Aegon's own storyline in Westeros, I don't see it happening. That's not to say it won't :) but it's another one of those looks nice on paper theories that don't relate much to the plot and the characters within the story.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

For a Sansa fan, no, I don't want her shipped off to Aegon, I don't want her to be shipped off to anybody.

But from the Blackfyres perspective; Stephen of England married Matilda of...(?) who was queen by blood according to the old dynasty and Henry VII married Eliabeth of York who also held much land according to her name. Sansa is the heir to Wintefell and the Riverlands and has many friends in the Vale, if I took over the world and needed to marry someone to secure my claim I'd look to Sansa as well

[Wouter]

LeDauphin: Jon Connington is very unlikely to approve of the idea, though. He does not like the Starks at all, from Lyanna to Ned. Moreover, the plan is firmly to marry Dany to Aegon (as makes sense!). If the plan fails, it will likely be because Aegon has other ideas and I guess the most likely source for such ideas would be the actual presence of a pretty woman who also happens to bring an army with her.

Thinking of Arianne Martell

Since Sansa isn't going to just happen to meet Aegon and it isn't even known if she is still alive, I don't know where Aegon would get the idea to drop the Dany plan for her.