From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa II

[Queen of Spades]

The fact of the matter is Sansa is responsible for 75% of what goes down at Westeros, specifically her parents death. Ned had no problem with dying, his sons and wife were outside KL, Arya was nowhere to be seen, but who was standing right there being held at Lannister swordpoint? Her mother destroyed her son's nation and her honor for Sansa's freedom (her story went downhill fast after that). Even if Sansa doesn't know this, she owes justice/vengance/revenge to her father soon to be in the tombs and to her zombie mother that's not even allowed to RIP

WTF ??? 75%, no less ? :blink:

Like Gregor's and Vargo's pillaging and raping and murdering, the Battle of Blackwater, the siege of Riverrun, plotting in Dorne, Renly's death, riots in Kings Landing, and so on ?

You know why it is called the War of the Five Kings ? Because there are multiple factions. Do you really think Stannis or the Ironborn are influenced in any way by little Sansa's actions, even very indirectly ?

And her parents death, seriously ? Let's see :

Ned :

You say yourself that Ned did not care for death (to the point that he revealed his plans to his ennemies...) Sansa disclosed hers and Arya's escape plans to Cercei, but :

- Even without Sansa, Cercei would still have captured Ned, LF having secured the gold cloaks for her and Ned having nicely disclosed his intentions

- Cercei did not want to kill Ned, only to send him to the Wall

- Ned's death was Joff's doing, propably on LF's suggestion

Cat :

- Cat was killed by Freys

- Freys killed Cat because Robb married Jeyne

- Robb married Jeyne because of his hormones and because he was mad with grief after learning his brothers were dead

- His brothers were believed dead because of Theon's betrayal and Ramsay's machinations

How is any of that Sansa's fault ? :huh:

[Kittykatknits]

WTF ??? 75%, no less ? :blink:

Like Gregor's and Vargo's pillaging and raping and murdering, the Battle of Blackwater, the siege of Riverrun, plotting in Dorne, Renly's death, riots in Kings Landing, and so on ?

You know why it is called the War of the Five Kings ? Because there are multiple factions. Do you really think Stannis or the Ironborn are influenced in any way by little Sansa's actions, even very indirectly ?

And her parents death, seriously ? Let's see :

Ned :

You say yourself that Ned did not care for death (to the point that he revealed his plans to his ennemies...) Sansa disclosed hers and Arya's escape plans to Cercei, but :

- Even without Sansa, Cercei would still have captured Ned, LF having secured the gold cloaks for her and Ned having nicely disclosed his intentions

- Cercei did not want to kill Ned, only to send him to the Wall

- Ned's death was Joff's doing, propably on LF's suggestion

Cat :

- Cat was killed by Freys

- Freys killed Cat because Robb married Jeyne

- Robb married Jeyne because of his hormones and because he was mad with grief after learning his brothers were dead

- His brothers were believed dead because of Theon's betrayal and Ramsay's machinations

How is any of that Sansa's fault ? :huh:

Because she killed Lady?

/sarcasm

[romantic]

The same can be said for Sandor. He is a well adjusted person within the constraints of Westerosi nobility, even without being a knight. He does what he is told by his liege Lord (or Lady in case of Cersei) without asking questions, even when that means cutting down 8 year old butcher's boys. Now later on we see him both acknowledge that he had to do it because the butcher's boy lay a hand on a prince of the blood, but also that he in this case disagrees with what society deemed right, and he regrets doing what he did.

Sorry to be pedantic but I think you accidently wrote 8 when he was actually 13.

I think yours and brashcandy's posts are great by the way. Keep fighting the good fight. :thumbsup:

[romantic]

ETA. The fact of the matter is Sansa is responsible for 75% of what goes down at Westeros, specifically her parents death.

I'm going to have to comment on this too.

An 11yo prisoner is responsible for what numerous other adults do? With that sort of power maybe Sansa is the THE GREAT OTHER (da da da dum!).

Sorry, Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin I'm not trying to be mean but seriously 75%? Can't we blame GRRM just a little bit for making his females characters so unsympathetic?.

[Elba the Intoner]

So I have been trying to catch up on this thread but it's been moving fast and I am finally getting there. Mostly the past few days I have spent on the threads discussing episode 10 of the show and as I got caught up on this thread, it struck me that something that came up on the nitpick and Jaime and Brienne thread of the show is relevant to what I have seen here for the last few pages. I'd like to bring it up here in terms of the discussion of Sansa as not being an active character, the Sansa hate and the feminine/masculine traits discussions.

Basically, without getting too spoilerish for anyone who hasn't seen the show yet (and I don't know how to do spoilers), both Dany and Brienne do something at the end of their scenes that many people find "badass", hence awesome and intended to make people really like their characters. There's a perception that the show is perpetuating, and it seems that readers also perpetuate in their love/hate for characters, that being a "badass" is awesome and to be admired. The next step in this thought process seems to be that you have to sometimes do cruel or coldhearted things to be a 'badass" but that's cool if it was in revenge or justice for betrayal. Who doesn't want someone who's been hurt or betrayed to get some form of revenge? But I find that I am having a hard time with this. Sure someone who is badass might be admirable, but that's not the only way someone can be admired. Furthermore, I don't think doing something that is overly cruel or heartless even if it is in revenge or retaliation of something else that was cruel makes someone an admirable "badass". Someone who is feminine and into womanly pursuits can be just as admirable. I explained this a lot better on the nitpick thread for episode 10 if anyone is interested.

Anyway, while I think that the idea of a badass being admirable holds true for male characters too, I think it is even more pronounced for the female characters and informs a lot of the Sansa/Cat hate. As for the Dany hate since ADWD, this could explain that too. She was better liked in the other books where she did some real badass stuff. In ADWD Dany mostly just sits around feeling helpless and somewhat ineffectual (which is also how she was portrayed on the show this season while she was in Qarth, and was a big deviation from book Dany), ie. not doing anything, which is the opposite of the badass.

[Valkyrja]

So I have been trying to catch up on this thread but it's been moving fast and I am finally getting there. Mostly the past few days I have spent on the threads discussing episode 10 of the show and as I got caught up on this thread, it struck me that something that came up on the nitpick and Jaime and Brienne thread of the show is relevant to what I have seen here for the last few pages. I'd like to bring it up here in terms of the discussion of Sansa as not being an active character, the Sansa hate and the feminine/masculine traits discussions.

Basically, without getting too spoilerish for anyone who hasn't seen the show yet (and I don't know how to do spoilers), both Dany and Brienne do something at the end of their scenes that many people find "badass", hence awesome and intended to make people really like their characters. There's a perception that the show is perpetuating, and it seems that readers also perpetuate in their love/hate for characters, that being a "badass" is awesome and to be admired. The next step in this thought process seems to be that you have to sometimes do cruel or coldhearted things to be a 'badass" but that's cool if it was in revenge or justice for betrayal. Who doesn't want someone who's been hurt or betrayed to get some form of revenge? But I find that I am having a hard time with this. Sure someone who is badass might be admirable, but that's not the only way someone can be admired. Furthermore, I don't think doing something that is overly cruel or heartless even if it is in revenge or retaliation of something else that was cruel makes someone an admirable "badass". Someone who is feminine and into womanly pursuits can be just as admirable. I explained this a lot better on the nitpick thread for episode 10 if anyone is interested.

Anyway, while I think that the idea of a badass being admirable holds true for male characters too, I think it is even more pronounced for the female characters and informs a lot of the Sansa/Cat hate. As for the Dany hate since ADWD, this could explain that too. She was better liked in the other books where she did some real badass stuff. In ADWD Dany mostly just sits around feeling helpless and somewhat ineffectual (which is also how she was portrayed on the show this season while she was in Qarth, and was a big deviation from book Dany), ie. not doing anything, which is the opposite of the badass.

I agree with you 100%! For some reason, this concept is difficult for me to explain to people.......you did a very good job though. :)

[Lummel]

...Anyway, while I think that the idea of a badass being admirable holds true for male characters too, I think it is even more pronounced for the female characters and informs a lot of the Sansa/Cat hate. As for the Dany hate since ADWD, this could explain that too. She was better liked in the other books where she did some real badass stuff. In ADWD Dany mostly just sits around feeling helpless and somewhat ineffectual (which is also how she was portrayed on the show this season while she was in Qarth, and was a big deviation from book Dany), ie. not doing anything, which is the opposite of the badass.

I've heard the view that the culture of the USA is very extrovert and doesn't value the introvert much. So it could be a reflection of that, leaping around with a sword and burning slavers is pretty extrovert after all, while your ADWD Dany and previously Sansa and Catelyn who spend a lot of time being thoughtful and reflective would be running straight up against mainstream cultural prejudices.

(badass = naughty donkey, an odd phrase)

[Lyanna Stark]

I worry that Aegon will not make it through the winter, or even through the next book. I really have no idea where GRRM is going with his storyline, but for some reason I feel a sense of doom from Jon C's chapters. If Sansa married Aegon, I'd be concerned for her own longevity. There is also the fact that she is still legally married to Tyrion, and we have to remember that of all the people from Westeros they could have encountered, Aegon and Jon C have met Tyrion. They know he was alive and in Essos, at least the last they saw of him.

Edited for clarity. Meant to say "will NOT make it through the winter" gah.

Just wanted to highlight the bolded part. I think there really is this sense of doom, sadness and foreboding in Jon Con's chapters. Perhaps it's just a reflection of Jon C's own mental state and that whatever he does, Rhaegar will still be gone forever, but I think it runs deeper than that. On the surface, it should be more cheerful, yet there is almost a "calm before the storm" sense to that part of the novel.

Regarding Sansa and Aegon specifically, I don't think that will ever be a reality since even if Littlefinger attempts it, and Aegon agrees to marry someone else than Dany, it will be the Martells and the Tyrells who fight this one out. Further, Littlefinger needs to get Sansa's marriage to Tyrion annulled or declared void*** for that to even be possible. With regards to Aegon's need to make alliances in Westeros, it would make far more sense for him to either marry Arianne or Margaery, since Sansa can bring him no armies and no real alliance since the North is held by the Boltons or Stannis (and Stannis, bless him, might be many things, but he is no friend of hers).

*** with the current High Sparrow, and Littlefinger's intimate knowledge of Tyrion's first marriage I do believe LF has Tysha up his sleeve. Or someone ready to pose as fake-Tysha. In other words, an annullment is not needed since you can't be married twice. The High Sparrow will also most likely have certain prejudices against the Lannisters after Cersei's transgressions, so will be more prone to automatically believing the worst of the Lannisters, i.e. that Tyrion married Tysha to get her in his bed, and when he got fed up with her gave her to his 200 guardsmen. I just don't think it's chance that Littlefinger mentions Tyrion's previous marriage to Sansa and that he seems to be awfully well informed about it.

[Lummel]

...*** with the current High Sparrow, and Littlefinger's intimate knowledge of Tyrion's first marriage I do believe LF has Tysha up his sleeve. Or someone ready to pose as fake-Tysha. In other words, an annullment is not needed since you can't be married twice...

But that's assuming that the first marriage wasn't annulled (or would have ever been considered valid, I seem to recall the phrase 'drunken Septon'). But I agree about the High Septon's bias. It would be pretty easy to assume based on what he knows that they are a unique depraved bunch.

Although when it comes to who is going to marry Aegon - surely it's got to be Margaery Tyrell, that young lady has to have a chance to marry every pretender to the throne at least once!

[Woman of War]

@ Lyanna:

If annullment is possible in Westeros, then Tyrion's marriage to Tysha has been annulled. Tywin had at least as much power to have it done after his wishes as LF has. Meaning that Tyrion's marriage to Tysha does not exist anymore because Tywin for sure organized it that way. And Tyrion was a minor then which certainly made it easier. So there will be no possibility for LF to have Tysha up in his sleeve to automatically turning the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion invalid. There would have to be the regular, complicated process of annullment since Tyrion definitely is not married twice.

What though may happen is that LF or chance may really put Tysha into Tyrion's path and Tyrion himself will seek for a way to get out of the Sansa marriage in a honorable manner. Or that he cannot set her aside despite having found Tysha or someone else without endangering her because being back as Stark might get her killed........ whatever.

All those solutions are happy fanfic but Tyrion's marriage to Tysha for sure doesn't exist anymore, Tywin would never have been that dumb.

[Lyanna Stark]

But that's assuming that the first marriage wasn't annulled (or would have ever been considered valid, I seem to recall the phrase 'drunken Septon'). But I agree about the High Septon's bias. It would be pretty easy to assume based on what he knows that they are a unique depraved bunch.

Although when it comes to who is going to marry Aegon - surely it's got to be Margaery Tyrell, that young lady has to have a chance to marry every pretender to the throne at least once!

Does it matter if the Septon was drunk though? If they were married, they were married in the eyes of Gods and Men etc. especially if LF can dig up "Tysha" and she can present a convincing enough sob story. I'm also convinced that the High Sparrow is predisposed to dislike the nobility, especially if they are arrogant.

All those solutions are happy fanfic but Tyrion's marriage to Tysha for sure doesn't exist anymore, Tywin would never have been that dumb.

Yes, because as we have seen before, Tywin's arrogance and conceit have never caused problems for him before, right? These two lead directly to his demise by Tyrion and also to ignore the signs of incest between Cersei and Jaime, even if it was right in front of his eyes. How should some whore ever trouble the mighty Lord Tywin? Besides, as he imagined Jaime would inherit Casterly Rock (another arrogance: he thought he could force Jaime) making absolutely sure that nothing came of the union with Tyrion mattered less than to teach Tyrion a lesson. Now with Tywin gone, Cersei wingclipped and Jaime lost in the Riverlands, nobody is there to contradict Littlefinger should he bring forth "Tysha". Sure, had Tywin still lived, the the situation would never have arisen. But that is not the case.

[Woman of War]

But how would Lf prove that the marriage was NOT annulled even if he has a fake Tysha to present? The annullment is widely known because it was important for Tywin's pride and there may be documents. So it would be LF who has to prove something - and that might turn out difficult.

And even if he could manage that, there is the timebomb ticking that a fakeTysha would be easily recognized as fake by Tyrion. Well, LF might disfigure her with acid or whatever plot twists but that is more than speculative.

Tysha may show up and Tyrion might want the marriage to Sansa annulled because of that but I am rather sure that a valid Tyrion/Tysha marriage can only be faked - and this fake may easily backfire and suddenly turn invalid any other marriage plot concerning Sansa. Too much crackpot here, we can simply lean back and wait.

I believe that Martin would write that legal squabble only as slapstick parody of divorce lawyers and laws.

[Lyanna Stark]

But how would Lf prove that the marriage was NOT annulled even if he has a fake Tysha to present? The annullment is widely known because it was important for Tywin's pride and there may be documents. So it would be LF who has to prove something - and that might turn out difficult.

Throughout, nobody mentions any anullment. What Tyrion asked Tywin was about where Tysha went. And he still refers to her as "my wife" as of ADWD ("He missed his wife, the wife he hardly knew"), indicating that as far as Tyrion is concerned, Tysha is still his wife.

And even if he could manage that, there is the timebomb ticking that a fakeTysha would be easily recognized as fake by Tyrion.

You missed the part where Tyrion is half way across the world? What makes you think Littlefinger will rest on his laurels and wait for Tyrion to come back before unveling "Tysha"? That would make no sense. Unless you think Tyrion can somehow see Tysha from Essos?

Tysha may show up and Tyrion might want the marriage to Sansa annulled because of that but I am rather sure that a valid Tyrion/Tysha marriage can only be faked - and this fake may easily backfire and suddenly turn invalid any other marriage plot concerning Sansa. Too much crackpot here, we can simply lean back and wait.

I believe that Martin would write that legal squabble only as slapstick parody of divorce lawyers and laws.

It doesn't even matter if it's the real Tysha who shows up as long as the person presented to the High Septon is believable enough. And again, I reiterate, Tyrion is on the other side of the world. What he wants or can do is completely irrelevant since he is not in Westeros.

As for your accusations of crackpot, we have two pieces of evidence to lean on:

1. Littlefinger seems very well acquainted with Tyrion's previous marriage

2. The constant harping on about "Where do whores go?", well where do they go? Logically, to a brothel. Who owns the brothels? Littlefinger.

Littlefinger has motive, knowledge and resources to pull this off, and I am sure it would delight him to do something nasty to Tyrion even in his abscence.

Regarding whether she is real or fake, it doesn't really matter, but I am leaning towards "fake", since we have seen precedent of Littlefinger using impersonation before, with both Jeyne Poole and with Sansa as Alayne. However, we have also seen him hide people in his brothels before as well "away from prynig eyes" (Jeyne Poole, the jousting dwarves).

[1234567]

Littlefinger also has connections with Braavos, informants on and off boats, and then we also have the Sailor's Wife and Lanna in Braavos. Littlefinger could easily aquire Tysha and Lanna and bring them forth as evidence of Tyrion's wife still being alive.

Tywin "anulling" Tyrion's marriage always seemed to me in the book to be a case of Tywin having threatened the Septon involved, or lying to the High Septon and the whole thing being hushed up, otherwise Tywin would not have been nearly half so insistent on Tyrion consummating the mariage with Sansa. Only an unconsumated marriage can be annulled by the sounds of it.

[Woman of War]

Sorry dp

[Woman of War]

I am sure that LF would do everything to be nasty with Tyrion, but Tyrion will be in Westeros sooner or later.

Yes and the fakeTysha will recognized as such and suddenly turn all of LF's tricks to dust. But it was CERTAINLY mentioned in the books that Tywin had the Tyrion/Tysha marriage annulled as soon as possible.

If LF cannot refute that then the marriage of Tyrion and Sansa will be the valid one. Though Martin really may have his fun making us all laugh about divorce lawyers.

But all this imo is of importance only when we see LF play his little tricks, spicing up the game. I guess Martin will want to show us that all claims and alliances achieved by that kind cunning will be pointless when it comes the endgame and the future of the characters concerned will not depend on some legal status of their marriage. Legally married or not, they will go where they want to go if they are alive at all, staying together or not. Certainly they will not meekly ask any septon or master of laws if they are allowed to turn the back to each other or to stay together. ("yes Your Honor, no Your Honor", lol) they will certainly not share the breakfast table for the rest of their lives because any High Septon tells them to do so or go separate ways against their will because there is something fishy with the marriage contract. Anyway maybe marriage contracts are not exacty the topic of these books.

[1234567]

Anyway maybe marriage contracts are not exacty the topic of these books.

That's funny because they seem to have been the root cause of most of the misery of the major characters.

[Lyanna Stark]

I am sure that LF would do everything to be nasty with Tyrion, but Tyrion will be in Westeros sooner or later.

Yes, very much likely "later". It takes months to travel from Meereen and Meereen is under siege so no ships will be leaving from there for a while. Unless you want to argue that Tyrion will gain teleportation skills?

Yes and the fakeTysha will recognized as such and suddenly turn all of LF's tricks to dust. But it was CERTAINLY mentioned in the books that Tywin had the Tyrion/Tysha marriage annulled as soon as possible.

Quote please.

The only time Tyrion and Tywin discuss Tysha is just before Tyrion shoots him, and there is no mention of annullment then.

[Woman of War]

This is when Tyrion tells Bronn about his first marriage, walking with him down from the Eyrie, it would take time to find the precise quote but Tysha was the reason that annullment of marriages got ever mentioned in the books at all.

And precisely because those contract obligations are the root of so much misery Martin will show us that the final destiny will be made by the characters' CONSCIOUS decisions to go separate ways or to stay together for political reasons or emotional links.

[Winter's Knight]

This is when Tyrion tells Bronn about his first marriage, walking with him down from the Eyrie, it would take time to find the precise quote but Tysha was the reason that annullment of marriages got ever mentioned in the books at all.

And precisely because those contract obligations are the root of so much misery Martin will show us that the final destiny will be made by the characters' CONSCIOUS decisions to go separate ways or to stay together for political reasons or emotional links.

There is no mention of an anullment:

". The first girl I ever bedded used to sing it, and I’ve never been able to put it out of my head.” Tyrion gazed up at the sky. It was a clear cold night and the stars shone down upon the mountains as bright and merciless as truth. “I met her on a night like this,” he heard himself saying. “Jaime and I were riding back from Lannisport when we heard a scream, and she came running out into the road with two men dogging her heels, shouting threats. My brother unsheathed his sword and went after them, while I dismounted to protect the girl. She was scarcely a year older than I was, dark-haired, slender, with a face that would break your heart. It certainly broke mine. Lowborn, half-starved, unwashed ... yet lovely. They’d torn the rags she was wearing half off her back, so I wrapped her in my cloak while Jaime chased the men into the woods. By the time he came trotting back, I’d gotten a name out of her, and a story. She was a crofter’s child, orphaned when her father died of fever, on her way to ... well, nowhere, really.

“Jaime was all in a lather to hunt down the men. It was not often outlaws dared prey on travelers so near to Casterly Rock, and he took it as an insult. The girl was too frightened to send off by herself, though, so I offered to take her to the closest inn and feed her while my brother rode back to the Rock for help.

“She was hungrier than I would have believed. We finished two whole chickens and part of a third, and drank a flagon of wine, talking. I was only thirteen, and the wine went to my head, I fear. The next thing I knew, I was sharing her bed. If she was shy, I was shyer. I’ll never know where I found the courage. When I broke her maidenhead, she wept, but afterward she kissed me and sang her little song, and by morning I was in love.”

“You?” Bronn’s voice was amused.

“Absurd, isn’t it?” Tyrion began to whistle the song again. “I married her,” he finally admitted.

“A Lannister of Casterly Rock wed to a crofter’s daughter,” Bronn said. “How did you manage that?”

“Oh, you’d be astonished at what a boy can make of a few lies, fifty pieces of silver, and a drunken septon. I dared not bring my bride home to Casterly Rock, so I set her up in a cottage of her own, and for a fortnight we played at being man and wife. And then the septon sobered and confessed all to my lord father.” Tyrion was surprised at how desolate it made him feel to say it, even after all these years. Perhaps he was just tired. “That was the end of my marriage.” He sat up and stared at the dying fire, blinking at the light.

“He sent the girl away?”

“He did better than that,” Tyrion said. “First he made my brother tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime arranged the whole affair, the road, the outlaws, all of it. He thought it was time I had a woman. He paid double for a maiden, knowing it would be my first time.

“After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she ...” The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness. “Lord Tywin had me go last,” he said in a quiet voice. “And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more.”