Learning to lead? A re-read project of the Dany and Jon ADWD chapters

[Yeade]

So, Elaena Targaryen, if I understand you correctly, you feel Dany ought to be more invested in her people? I can't really argue with that, lol, as Dany's frustrated desire to be done with Meereen perhaps influences her actions as a certain distance from her subjects there. What's more, she seems to me trapped in an endless cycle of passivity--always scrambling to react to the moves of her enemies instead of changing the game to force them to play by her rules--that she can't break because her crisis of self-confidence and resulting depression sap her will to take action. Girl, you gotta shape up! :laugh:

QuaitheTheShadow, my suggestion is in fact that Dany confiscate the greater part of the Meereenese nobility's wealth, which she does not do in ADWD, for use in establishing a new currency and economic reconstruction programs. Presumably, this would put enough gold in the royal coffers to get the city's internal market running again and producing exportable goods. At which point, the issue of the war with the Yunkai'i and their later siege of Meereen would need to be addressed so trade routes can be opened. I'm not sure how feasible this is because, as I said, I'm no economist. Comments are welcome!

Though I must admit I'm a tad confused as to how you got the impression I proposed that Dany print money or do anything that involves credit. Paper currency, treasury notes, and the like appear to be a foreign concept in Westeros and Essos alike. The Iron Throne is heavily in debt to the Lannisters, the Iron Bank, and others, such as the Faith, but this is accounted in millions of pieces of gold. I'd kind of assumed that, upon Tycho Nestoris sailing back to Braavos for approval of the contract with the NW, Jon would receive shipments at the Wall of actual physical coins as requested from the Iron Bank. Jon thinks the Iron Bank can fund Stannis's war, too, and you for sure don't hire mercenary soldiers with stock options, so to speak. While, say, the Arryns of the Vale may accept as legal tender an IOU backed by the Iron Bank as they can expect to be able to contact the Braavosi to make good on the debt, I can't quite imagine your average parochial feudal lord or, worse, peasant farmer accepting payment in anything except precious metals or bartered commodities.

Just to reiterate, I'm arguing that Dany can liquidate the real assets of the Meereenese nobles. That is, clean out their household vaults. Melt down their jewelry and other applicable valuables for gold, silver, and copper to make coins. Nationalize their land and put it on or, I guess, open the real estate market. Precious gems, silk, spices, antiques, furniture--anything that may have monetary worth--seize it for the common good! Hence my somewhat tactless comparison to the communists, lol.

Dr. Pepper, great to see the next Jon chapter! Except I've sort of talked myself out for the night, lol. A couple quick hits then: 1) I and many others believe Jon pretty much becomes king of the free folk in Mance Rayder's place, however unintentionally. Jon's goal is to push the wildlings to accept an alliance in which they're subordinate to their enemies of generations, the Night's Watch, but he ends up making a show of strength that the wildlings respect and respond to as they would a king. This might be an interesting thread to trace through later chapters, especially as more is revealed of how Mance originally comes to be King Beyond the Wall for comparison. 2) Does Jon have an eidetic memory for every random bit of advice about leadership he's ever been given? Or is it just me? Seriously! :laugh:

As for the pace of the thread, it's not a big deal, really. At least, not for me. It feels like there are only half a dozen regular posters here and, while it's certainly possible a discussion could get a little out of hand (hi, DurararaFTW! :blush:), the general pattern seems to be several rounds of replies--many epically long, lol--that last a couple days, then everyone settles in to wait for the next re-reader to post. Shorter intervals would keep people focused, but I find the lazy in-between periods are nice for exploring Jon and Dany's characterizations in a broader sense, hypothetical plot developments, tangentially related topics, etc. So, a staggered schedule? Sometimes three to four days, sometimes only two? I dunno how that'd work...

[QuaitheTheShadow]

QuaitheTheShadow, my suggestion is in fact that Dany confiscate the greater part of the Meereenese nobility's wealth, which she does not do in ADWD, for use in establishing a new currency and economic reconstruction programs. Presumably, this would put enough gold in the royal coffers to get the city's internal market running again and producing exportable goods. At which point, the issue of the war with the Yunkai'i and their later siege of Meereen would need to be addressed so trade routes can be opened. I'm not sure how feasible this is because, as I said, I'm no economist. Comments are welcome!

Though I must admit I'm a tad confused as to how you got the impression I proposed that Dany print money or do anything that involves credit. Paper currency, treasury notes, and the like appear to be a foreign concept in Westeros and Essos alike. The Iron Throne is heavily in debt to the Lannisters, the Iron Bank, and others, such as the Faith, but this is accounted in millions of pieces of gold. I'd kind of assumed that, upon Tycho Nestoris sailing back to Braavos for approval of the contract with the NW, Jon would receive shipments at the Wall of actual physical coins as requested from the Iron Bank. Jon thinks the Iron Bank can fund Stannis's war, too, and you for sure don't hire mercenary soldiers with stock options, so to speak. While, say, the Arryns of the Vale may accept as legal tender an IOU backed by the Iron Bank as they can expect to be able to contact the Braavosi to make good on the debt, I can't quite imagine your average parochial feudal lord or, worse, peasant farmer accepting payment in anything except precious metals or bartered commodities.

Just to reiterate, I'm arguing that Dany can liquidate the real assets of the Meereenese nobles. That is, clean out their household vaults. Melt down their jewelry and other applicable valuables for gold, silver, and copper to make coins. Nationalize their land and put it on or, I guess, open the real estate market. Precious gems, silk, spices, antiques, furniture--anything that may have monetary worth--seize it for the common good! Hence my somewhat tactless comparison to the communists, lol.

Credit is the ability to borrow more money then you have. The Iron Throne has been using Braavos for this to pay its armies. Dany has no bank to go to. She seized the wealth of Yunkai already and they recouped armies - by using credit in Ghis and Voltanis.

Dany can't devalue the value of gold as you suggested. She can merely melt it down and offer it back in a new shape.

If Dany seized all the wealth of Mereen she'd just have a city full of beggers. No one would have money to begin a new economy or hire people. And this fundamentally misses the point that Kings and Queens don't really run economies. They collect taxes but that's about it. It's not her function to devise an economy for Mereen. The wealthy inhabitants in the city were supposed to use the gold they were allowed to keep to rehire former slaves as laborers. The only alternative would be for Dany to form a communist state where the crown employs and pays everyone, which just isn't feasible, and would have made her even more hated by the nobility. If she just started handing out gold and land there's still no guarantee this would help. Men could run off with the gold, sell the currently-destroyed farms for whatever gold they could get, and then leave, leaving Dany in an even worse situation.

[Ghost Rider]

Sorry to chime in, but the thread has been way too interesting to keep apart from for a very long time. :D

Credit is the ability to borrow more money then you have.

It's really astonishing what a narrow definition of "credit" is used nowadays. "Credit" is different then money, because it means to be able to pay back another person in kind. Someone does you a favour or even a disservice. You owe the other person for that, i.e. return the favour or seek revenge for the disservice (Lannisters always pay their debts, who would think of only applying that one to money?)

The Iron Throne has been using Braavos for this to pay its armies. Dany has no bank to go to. She seized the wealth of Yunkai already and they recouped armies - by using credit in Ghis and Voltanis.

She doesn't really need to. She's a conqueror, she can take what she wants. That's what conquerors do. Actually that's why you bother to conquer another place - to be able to plunder it for its riches.

Dany can't devalue the value of gold as you suggested. She can merely melt it down and offer it back in a new shape.

Gold doesn't really have a value of its own, its value is strictly relative to the goods you can trade for the gold. That means, if a lot of gold is on the market, the value will decrease. There are times when gold loses value even if there's not very much of it, just because other goods are more useful in a given situation. After WWII a bag of potatoes changed hands against gold.

If Dany seized all the wealth of Mereen she'd just have a city full of beggers. No one would have money to begin a new economy or hire people.

Not true at all. If Dany seized all the wealth of Mereen, SHE would have the money to begin a new economy and hire people. Which means considerable power in her hands, because she would be able to direct people to work at the reconstruction of Meereen.

And this fundamentally misses the point that Kings and Queens don't really run economies.

That may be true for the European Middle Ages, since they didn't really have a centrally organized state. (That changed in mercantilism though...) Buf if you look to ancient China, Egypt or Babylon, state/religious institutions indeed ran the economy. They organized huge central projects, like the pyramids or irrigation systems. Imho, these civilizations are more comparable to Meereen then, say middle age England.

They collect taxes but that's about it. It's not her function to devise an economy for Mereen.

That's a very modern view of the matter. Even today most people (especially in Europe...) think it's beneficial if the state intervenes economically to correct some more obvious failures of the market (e.g. ecological) and to ease the resulting hardships. In ancient times, taxes were seen as nothing short of robbery. But by all means, you could also "tax" the wealth of the Meereen nobility. :D The ability to tax also depends on real power which Dany has.

The wealthy inhabitants in the city were supposed to use the gold they were allowed to keep to rehire former slaves as laborers.

Because, I guess, their wealth is god given and well deserved and not "earned" by activities which are now outlawed by Dany's government like slavery. To enable them to rehire slaves as laborers gives them powers I'd not want to give them in Dany's place.

The only alternative would be for Dany to form a communist state where the crown employs and pays everyone, which just isn't feasible,

Yes, I guess that's really frightening. :D And it's probably not feasible because you say so? In history a lot of states had (more or less) centrally planned economies, starting with the very first civilizations. A communist state is a different matter entirely.

and would have made her even more hated by the nobility.

better be hated by a strongly weakened, very poor enemy, then by an enemy that is strong because of his economic powers.

If she just started handing out gold and land there's still no guarantee this would help. Men could run off with the gold, sell the currently-destroyed farms for whatever gold they could get, and then leave, leaving Dany in an even worse situation.

There's never a guarantee of course. But I'd suggest wiping the slate clean, i.e. to distribute the arable land among former slaves, people who would want to work the lands themselves. There are people who will sell it... but since nobody has a lot of money, chances are that you can avoid high concentration of property (=high concentration of power) Chances are that people would care too much about their newly won property to run away. I'd not distribute the gold and other mobile assets, because you still need to pay armies and state administration and so on, so these people would earn wages.

As for currency, maybe it's better to avoid gold and such stuff and force through (via taxes of course, because that's how a state controlls the currency. If the state says you must pay your taxes in brass, you better have have as much brass as is asked of you....or face the consequences) another payment to avoid selling of real estate to foreigners other undesirables. But these are minor details. To summarize: I think Dany's failure is in big measure found in her inability to seize controll of Meereen economy and thereby her inability to devise any viable strategy to destroy the powerbase of her opponents.

[Lummel]

It always pleases me to see someone mention mercantilism.

Let's be clear, Daenerys is intervening in the Meereenesse economy and in a big way. She is the one who has the planting of beans, vines and olive trees undertaken and she is sending out her agents to open up trade with the Lamb People. Further she has to be actively involved with creating a new economy because she's destroyed the old one! Meereen was functioning by buying captives, training them and selling them on as specialised slaves. By banning slavery Daenerys has removed the entire economic basis of the society. There's a bit more in future chapters about trade I think.

If she is going to destroy slavery in the long term then she has to take a lead in creating a self sufficient non-slave basis for the city to survive and thrive. But thinking about that, and if you run through examples in real life where slave economies have been brought to an end, then you get a sense of the scale and complexities of the challenge. A challenge that she is undertaking without any useful support or skilled advisers or relevant experience. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread I suppose.

Maybe she actually does better than could be expected despite all that?

[Ghost Rider]

Lummel, I agree with your post above, no reason to sell centrally planned economies short! It is indeed a dauntingly difficult task and it's very commendable that Dany recognizes that she cannot just leave economy to itself and wants to find a solution. However the task is getting even more difficult when she doesn't recognize that she must expropriate the former slave owners if she doesn't want to outright expell or kill (that's what was done in Haiti) them. In my view they are an obstacle and no help at all. They have absolutely no reason to support her policy and every reason to oppose her. She must find allies in people who actually benefit from her reign (i.e. former slaves)

Maybe she actually does better than could be expected despite all that?

I guess that one depends on the expectations. :D

[Winterfellian]

In regards to Dr. Pepper's analysis:

This is a very interesting Jon chapter. Some of the things that struck me the most in comparison to Dany:

- Both have the task to try and incorporate 2 very different societies/cultures. Dany betwee the freed slaves and Mereen's elite and Jon between the Night's Watch and the wildings. Jon has the advantage over her in the fact that he knows the aspects of both groups while Dany is a stranger to both.

I also noticed that Jon wants the wildings to preserve their culture as much as possible (not kneeling, keeping their Old Gods, etc) without necessarily becoming one of them. This can be viewed as a contrast of sorts with Dany's approach because she is striving to integrate herself into their society (putting on the rabbit ears).

- Lessons in leadership: Dr. Pepper I liked that you took the time to post the lesson's Jon recalled during this chapter because it is such a contrast with Dany. So far they are both in leadership situations and we haven't see Dany recall ay sort of ruling advice simply because she never had these.

However I think so far, for better or worse, through the boks Dany is ahead than Jon in the road of finding her own style of ruling (which is what every ruler has to find for him or herself) while Jon is not because he's kind of trying to follow the footsteps on those before him.

- Loneliness: The loneliness of command is evident if this Jon's chapter as well as in the last from Dany. In contrast with Dany, Jon is resolved not to escape his reality. He has responsanbilities and he will bear the burden.

- Resistance to cruelty.

One of the things I find very hard to like about Dany is the fact the she is capable of using cruel methods both in executioning and questioning. In contrast Jon shows no desire to treat foes with cruelty so far (Mance, Janos Slynt). The approach he takes with the wildings reminds me of the advice Tywin once gave Joffrey: ''When your enemies troubled you serve them steel. If they kneel help them back on their feet''

[Yeade]

QuaitheTheShadow, Ghost Rider's pretty much beaten me to the punch in answering your last post, lol, but to further clarify matters:

My confusion over your mention of credit stems from my perception that I'm not proposing that Dany borrow from anyone. She is outright taking wealth from the Meereenese nobility. Call it taxes or reparations or even charitable donations, as I somewhat jokingly suggested--whatever the case may be, I do not intend for Dany to ever pay the nobles back, though a degree of restitution can be offered contingent on individual ex-slavers and their families proving their loyalty to the new system. Dany can do this because, as Ghost Rider says, she's a conqueror and has the military power to force cooperation. Once most of the wealth of Meereen is concentrated in her hands, Dany won't need a bank, IMO. She will be the bank.

To get to the specifics, I figure Dany could keep most or at least a large percentage of the confiscated land under the control of the crown to begin with. Agricultural programs run by the state would hire and pay freedmen to work these lands. The remainder of the land would be partitioned into lots of varying size and sold at reasonably low rates in staggered batches to individuals on a first come, first served basis.

If you're concerned about the unscrupulous immediately putting the property up for resale, you can make it a condition of the initial sale that the new proprietor(s) hold on to the land for a set amount of time, to be audited at will by the government. I'd monitor these independent farms, anyways, so that if any prove uncommonly productive, I may offer the owner(s) more portions of the royal land at discounted prices, along with the additional hands needed to work the increased acreage by requiring that the freedmen on the government payroll be hired under the same terms by the new management. Furthermore, Dany can hold special court sessions to hear not problems and complaints but ideas for solutions to Meereen's economic woes. This will hopefully attract budding entrepreneurs, and any with especially promising plans can be contracted to implement their proposals on a trial basis upon the lands owned by the Queen, with the understanding that if their ventures are fruitful, they will be given the same deal as the successful private farmers.

And, like so, I think the property confiscated from the nobility can gradually be handed over by the crown to individuals with some assurance the latter will make good use of the land. While this slow transition happens, if Dany sells the food produced on the public lands at lower prices than other vendors in the city, she can not only defray a part of her expenses in running those farms but slow inflation.

Regarding the option of minting a new currency, my original idea's to put the financial system firmly under the control of Dany's regime and devalue the wealth of the ex-slavers that's still in the old standard. Upon consideration, though, I believe this won't be necessary if Dany takes the greater amount of the money presently in the hands of the nobility to fill the royal coffers instead. Some of this has to be payed out to government employees and the reconstruction projects, but the rest is, well, a gold reserve, right? Therein lies Dany's ability to give credit, as I understand it. However, Dany may be able to circulate more gold than you'd expect because a certain portion of the assets she seizes from the Meereenese nobles is probably in forms unsuitable for use as legal tender--precious gems, silk, spices, antiques, furniture, and so on. Supposing that trade routes are reestablished in the future, these items can then be sold abroad to balance the crown's budget, if required.

Finally, on a tangentially related note, I often find it a bit weird to discuss free market principles (e.g. private ownership of land and business, limited government regulation of the economy) and the consensus politics generally associated with modern liberal democracies in relation to Dany's or, for that matter, Jon's leadership. These two kids are not likely to end up the rulers of such societies. They're in training to become benevolent dictators, IMO. I don't see why they'd have to eschew any of the tactics, no matter how brutal in the eyes of many readers, that have historically been successful in maintaining dictatorships if these methods can produce the desired effects.

[Dacie]

I also noticed that Jon wants the wildings to preserve their culture as much as possible (not kneeling, keeping their Old Gods, etc) without necessarily becoming one of them. This can be viewed as a contrast of sorts with Dany's approach because she is striving to integrate herself into their society (putting on the rabbit ears).

This is something I picked up on as well when re-reading this chapter. I think this demonstrates another important aspect of Jon's leadership- tolerance

At dinner when Jon hears Pyp and Grenn and the others making jokes about Mel worshipping R'hllor, he tells them "You have your Gods and she has hers. Leave her be." This is also evidenced by him encouraging Stannis to allow the free folk to keep their customs and not force them to kneel.

Further, when speaking with Clydas, he mentions reading the book about Azor Ahai and his flaming sword, saying the blade was always warm because it had been tempered with the blood of Nissa Nissa. He notes that Stannis' sword is cold, and wonders how well it will hold up in battle. To me this indicates that he knows Stannis is not AA, but doesn't think anything about disproving it. He seems fine to let Mel, Stannis, and the Queen's Men continue on believing as they do, no matter if it is inaccurate.

I think the best line in this chapter comes from Dolorous Edd, when talking about the Wildlings that decided to bend the knee to Stannis: "Aye, we hacked their Gods apart and made them burn the pieces, but we gave them onion soup. What's a God compared to a nice bowl of onion soup?"

Compare this to Dany in Meereen: Yes, she sacked their city and smashed the only lives they had ever known. But she gave them freedom. Kind of a opposite situation to the Wildlings but still very similar. Both are giving up the only lives they've ever known for the promise of a better life.

[Blisscraft]

This chapter gives a very good breakdown of the troubles that Jon faces as LC. First, as pointed out by DP, going "against" Stannis by feathering "Mance." No, Jon cannot look Stannis in the eyes afterwards, but the message is clear as to Jon's assertion as LC. Jon is in charge of the Wall and the Wall is weeping.

Second, Jon remembers the conversation with Stannis about the "mummer's show," the rejection of the free folks' old gods for the red god. "The free folk despise knealers," he had warned Stannis. "Let them keep their pride, and they will love you better." His Grace would not listen. He said, "It is swords I need from them, not kisses." This is a great line because it shows Stannis' dry wit, but also it shows Stannis' need for the free folk to defend the Wall. Stannis requires a sacrifice of the free folk for admittance. Jon has doubts about the need for such a sacrifice. He thinks, "You gave them land and mercy, but the free folk choose their own kings, and it was Mance they chose, not you."

Sorry about pounding upon the idea of consent of the govened, but that's true of the free folk as well as the NW. It is not a simplistic notion. It's extremely complex. Mostly, because there will always be dissent. The majority will chose. The minority will stew in their own juice until the time comes for another chosing.

This brings me to a third complication with Jon's command: Bowen Marsh. This is such a fantastic example of the enemy within the watch. Bowen gives voice to the dissenters and their views regarding Jon's leadership. Jon raises the NW's true obligation in defense: to guard the realm. Jon and Stannis and Bowen all know the face of the real enemy without: the White Walkers and their wights. However, maybe because of Bowen's near death at the Gorge or some deeper prejudice, he returns to the idea that the realm needs protection from the free folk. He wants, along with others, to seal the gates. It seems that Bowen's prejudice (and others like Slynt and Thorne's outweighs the threat of the real enemy. Jon perfects his argument against this later in the book.) The need to close off the North, by sealing the gates leads to Bowen going further to suggest Jon is too close to Stannis. Again, Bowen gives voice to the dissenters at the Wall. The Wall is weeping.

Jon deals with Bowen's arguments very well. He puts forth that Stannis helped when the NW needed it most, Stannis' guest right, and the fact that Stannis' claim to the throne is not such a lost cause as it had seemed. Jon graciously offers to consider all that Marsh has said.

[Lummel]

This is something I picked up on as well when re-reading this chapter. I think this demonstrates another important aspect of Jon's leadership- tolerance...

Good point. Maybe this comes from being a worshiper of the old gods on the Wall (they seem to have been a minority) or from being a bastard and therefore on the margins of polite society?

...Sorry about pounding upon the idea of consent of the govened, but that's true of the free folk as well as the NW. It is not a simplistic notion. It's extremely complex. Mostly, because there will always be dissent. The majority will chose. The minority will stew in their own juice until the time comes for another chosing...

Love this point. Consent is hugely important in my opinion, not just in the cases of Mance and Jon who are elected leaders but also for Dany and all teh otehr Kings, Lords and leaders.

You can't on your own force masses of people to do what you want, you can't rule on your own. You need people who are going to obey, be prepared to obey and to carry out instructions. This comes back to Varys' riddle, power is where it appears to be, the Kiing can command because the sellsword and the merchant are prepared to obey him.

Dany in theory has absolute authority. In practise however if she commands something that her principal offciers don't consent to they can drag their heels, delay, find difficulties, play up any opposition, attempt to undermine her orders and so on.

[Dr. Pepper]

This is something I picked up on as well when re-reading this chapter. I think this demonstrates another important aspect of Jon's leadership- tolerance

At dinner when Jon hears Pyp and Grenn and the others making jokes about Mel worshipping R'hllor, he tells them "You have your Gods and she has hers. Leave her be." This is also evidenced by him encouraging Stannis to allow the free folk to keep their customs and not force them to kneel.

<snip>

I think the best line in this chapter comes from Dolorous Edd, when talking about the Wildlings that decided to bend the knee to Stannis: "Aye, we hacked their Gods apart and made them burn the pieces, but we gave them onion soup. What's a God compared to a nice bowl of onion soup?"

Compare this to Dany in Meereen: Yes, she sacked their city and smashed the only lives they had ever known. But she gave them freedom. Kind of a opposite situation to the Wildlings but still very similar. Both are giving up the only lives they've ever known for the promise of a better life.

I'm very glad you brought this up as this was something I wanted to include, but I snipped it. Dolorous Edd always says just the right thing. :) I sort of see the burning of the weirwood limbs as similar to the smashing of the harpies. Would it have made a difference if Dany smashed the harpies while also providing locust soup? Is freedom worth more than soup when you're starving and far from home (home being either an actual dwelling or the comforts of your known culture)?

[Blisscraft]

:agree: with this point as well. It reminds me of "soupers" in Ireland. Leave your faith and we'll feed you when you're starving. But, once you've made the choice there's no turning back. It's coercion at its finest.

[Lummel]

...Regarding Dany and the Lamb Men, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Daario the one who was responsible for the alliance? Daario isn't a character I associate with diplomacy. I think he threatened the Lamb Men into trading with Meereen, or he spilled blood to get it...

Daenerys sent Daario to negotiate but you make a fair point there, he's not exactly the diplomatic sort and I don't think we are given any details of how he won them round.

We see a lot of social change in this chapter, the main one being how the Night’s Watch and wildlings interact with one another. The wildlings come into the realm at the cost of their freedom when they kneel and symbolically turning on their gods. I'm hesitant to compare kneeling wildlings as slaves, but Ygritte did make the comparison first. I think it's interesting to note that Dany is dealing with the issues of freeing slaves while Jon is dealing with potentially making slaves...

The wildlings and the freed slaves to me seem to be comparable groups. They are not homogenous. They are rag bag collections of different peoples, dragged out of their familiar surroundings and brought together through extraordinary circumstances.

The freedslaves are unified by their acceptance of daenerys as their leader, Queen and Mother (and dragon too I suppose, ready to burn up and crunch down their enemies), aren't the Wildlings also unified by their acceptance of Mance as a leader? It might be worth coming back to this comparision later in the reread...

[Winterfellian]

The freedslaves are unified by their acceptance of daenerys as their leader, Queen and Mother (and dragon too I suppose, ready to burn up and crunch down their enemies), aren't the Wildlings also unified by their acceptance of Mance as a leader?

This a very fair point and one I think Jon wanted Stannis to see when he asked him to spare Mance.

[Lummel]

...I think the best line in this chapter comes from Dolorous Edd, when talking about the Wildlings that decided to bend the knee to Stannis: "Aye, we hacked their Gods apart and made them burn the pieces, but we gave them onion soup. What's a God compared to a nice bowl of onion soup?"...

See also King Bread in ACOK!

Food is important. The wildlings are hungry, the people in Meereen will get hungry if those beans don't hurry up and grow.

Maybe this is something worth saying, a bit obvious but never mind, the Wildlings have totally abandoned their old lives (again rather like the freed slaves), they have left their old homes, now they have to abandon their faith, they can only have a minimal amount of their old possessions. Seems a bit like the re-birth and identity theme too, they have left the old life but the new is still waiting to be born?

[Blisscraft]

I agree, Lummel. Don't mean to pound on the imagery of passing through the tunnel to go to South ot the Wall as a birth, but it is a rebirth for them. It requires sacrifice (as you noted, of everything) to come through and create a new life on the other side.

[Blisscraft]

And one more thing, the Wall is weeping. Definitely a part of the birthing process.

[Lummel]

I agree, Lummel. Don't mean to pound on the imagery of passing through the tunnel to go to South ot the Wall as a birth, but it is a rebirth for them. It requires sacrifice (as you noted, of everything) to come through and create a new life on the other side.

maybe it's the beer I'm drinking but that seems particularly profound of a sudden.

Rebirth is a reocurring theme, in a very big way come the end of the series we will be waiting for the spring and the rebirth of life which ties into Sansa and her pomegrante (maybe Bran too in the womb like dark, or even Arya also for part of the book in the dark). Isn't rebirth what Daenerys needs, while it's what Jon - at some cost as we see increasingly in this chapter is forcing on himself. Rebirth is what Daenerys hopes to impose on Meereen - would it have helped to have forced some similarly symbolic birthing on ex-slaves and ghiscari nobles to create a new sense of identity, because it comes back to that question of who you are in a way. The wildlings are, in theory, being reborn as Stannis' men but in practise they did it for onion soup. Consent was forced.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

It's really astonishing what a narrow definition of "credit" is used nowadays. "Credit" is different then money, because it means to be able to pay back another person in kind. Someone does you a favour or even a disservice. You owe the other person for that, i.e. return the favour or seek revenge for the disservice (Lannisters always pay their debts, who would think of only applying that one to money?)

It's not a narrow definition. Dany lacks the ability to borrow from anyone. Lannister credit is different from the Iron Bank's form of credit which is much more sophisticated. Since Dany cannot borrow, she has to pay for everything out of the gold she has on hand, or rely on non-paid service. This is a major handicap and juxtaposed to John who was just extended a giant loan.

She doesn't really need to. She's a conqueror, she can take what she wants. That's what conquerors do. Actually that's why you bother to conquer another place - to be able to plunder it for its riches. Gold doesn't really have a value of its own, its value is strictly relative to the goods you can trade for the gold. That means, if a lot of gold is on the market, the value will decrease. There are times when gold loses value even if there's not very much of it, just because other goods are more useful in a given situation. After WWII a bag of potatoes changed hands against gold.

And during a siege noble ladies will trade their diamonds for turnips as Bronn says, but Dany wouldn't be increasing the amount of gold by confiscating it,. she'd merely be redistributing it, so it would retain the same value.

Not true at all. If Dany seized all the wealth of Mereen, SHE would have the money to begin a new economy and hire people. Which means considerable power in her hands, because she would be able to direct people to work at the reconstruction of Meereen. . .That may be true for the European Middle Ages, since they didn't really have a centrally organized state. (That changed in mercantilism though...) Buf if you look to ancient China, Egypt or Babylon, state/religious institutions indeed ran the economy. They organized huge central projects, like the pyramids or irrigation systems. Imho, these civilizations are more comparable to Meereen then, say middle age England.

Not quite. Egypt and Babylon's governments were most likely formed to coordinate irrigation so yes, they did fulfill that function, but other than commissioning giant pyramids, they took no interest in developing their state's economy. They existed (in theory) to provide stability and by divine mandate. They also had enormous armies of bureaucrats to run the system which Dany lacks and cannot easily reproduce.

Dany took everything that wasn't nailed down from two other slave cities and is still low on funds when she reaches Mereen. There's no reason to think Mereen is an endless pit of gold and she can't continually fuel her government by plunder as she's run out of cities to sack at the moment. Mereen has no economy other than a slave economy that we know of, so she's starting at square one. I don't think any ruler in Westeros or Essos with the possible exception of Bravos would consider it a ruler's duty to establish a new economy. That said, she's established a new watch and several freedman companies, which ARE investments in Mereen. I think she's done about as much in her limited time as queen to help reconstruct Mereen's economy as any ruler feasibly could.

That's a very modern view of the matter. Even today most people (especially in Europe...) think it's beneficial if the state intervenes economically to correct some more obvious failures of the market (e.g. ecological) and to ease the resulting hardships. In ancient times, taxes were seen as nothing short of robbery. But by all means, you could also "tax" the wealth of the Meereen nobility. :D The ability to tax also depends on real power which Dany has.

A government that actually provides services to its people is a modern idea. And yes, everyone has always hated the tax man. :)

To get to the specifics, I figure Dany could keep most or at least a large percentage of the confiscated land under the control of the crown to begin with. Agricultural programs run by the state would hire and pay freedmen to work these lands. The remainder of the land would be partitioned into lots of varying size and sold at reasonably low rates in staggered batches to individuals on a first come, first served basis.

This requires a rather large bureaucracy to administer, something which Dany doesn't have and can't easily create.

If you're concerned about the unscrupulous immediately putting the property up for resale, you can make it a condition of the initial sale that the new proprietor(s) hold on to the land for a set amount of time, to be audited at will by the government. I'd monitor these independent farms, anyways, so that if any prove uncommonly productive, I may offer the owner(s) more portions of the royal land at discounted prices, along with the additional hands needed to work the increased acreage by requiring that the freedmen on the government payroll be hired under the same terms by the new management. Furthermore, Dany can hold special court sessions to hear not problems and complaints but ideas for solutions to Meereen's economic woes. This will hopefully attract budding entrepreneurs, and any with especially promising plans can be contracted to implement their proposals on a trial basis upon the lands owned by the Queen, with the understanding that if their ventures are fruitful, they will be given the same deal as the successful private farmers.

Same response as above. This is enormously complex for her to enact and Mereen lacks the brain power and willingness to comply.

Finally, on a tangentially related note, I often find it a bit weird to discuss free market principles (e.g. private ownership of land and business, limited government regulation of the economy) and the consensus politics generally associated with modern liberal democracies in relation to Dany's or, for that matter, Jon's leadership. These two kids are not likely to end up the rulers of such societies. They're in training to become benevolent dictators, IMO. I don't see why they'd have to eschew any of the tactics, no matter how brutal in the eyes of many readers, that have historically been successful in maintaining dictatorships if these methods can produce the desired effects.

Well yes, but I think it's strange that people think Dany should have come up with five year economic plan for Mereen when she and every other ruler in Martin's world is a divine-right despot. It's just an odd standard. It's clear that many people in Mereen would suffer in short term since the economy was tanked, but better that then remain a slave-dependent society.

Yes, I guess that's really frightening. :D And it's probably not feasible because you say so? In history a lot of states had (more or less) centrally planned economies, starting with the very first civilizations. A communist state is a different matter entirely.

Their economies were regulated by the state, not created by it.

To summarize: I think Dany's failure is in big measure found in her inability to seize controll of Meereen economy and thereby her inability to devise any viable strategy to destroy the powerbase of her opponents.

The idea was to co-opt the nobility in the same way John attempts to co-opt Mance's army. Only the Mereenese weren't under threat until Dany arrived so they have little reason to join her cause other than fear of annihilation which is something she really doesn't want to have to do again, as she did in Astophor because it led to complete chaos.

Contrast that with John who is literally handed two entire armies and an alliance with Stannis for simply existing. The Others have made John's job rather easy.

And on an economic note I don't see how the Night's Watch actually funds itself other than by charity. It takes a ton of gold to keep a large standing army, and as Rome learned, if you aren't conquering new lands you can't man a wall forever.

[Jolene Brown]

I thought what Dolorous Edd said was meant to be sarcastic... like, in the long run, they are not going to be grateful for some onion soup after what we did to their Gods.