[Book Spoilers] House of the Undying

[Hoya Karsa Orlong]

I like the TV HOTU prophecy/traps, but really did not like the burning at the end. The tv show is cannon for the tv show and the books for the books, so i dont read too much into the visions. Although the idea of dany coming from the north to burn KL with a white walker king jon certainly is interesting.

My question was twice now the show has changed the maz prophecy/curse/creative way to say never. In season 1 maz drops and when your womb quickens again and bear a living child. Then in season 2 with drogo, dany also does not say that clause but then also replaces when seas run dry with when rivers run dry.

Why make those changes? This is the one prophecy we have heard twice on the show now, and one that been argubably fulfilled in the books end of dance (except for having kid). They are very short lines, and add depth that she is barren but for her dragons. I dont get the choice unless Grrm is offering some feedback or they are setting dany up to get knocked by the man with the golden grill.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Ok everyone breathe for a second and stop getting your panties up in a bunch. Considering budget and time constraints, the show did a fine job of making something out of Dany's trip to the HotU. I read the second book after the first season was completed and I never expected them to be able to fully adapt it, so this wasn't a big letdown. If everyone could take a step back and actually look at this scene for what it was, it actually showed a lot of stuff.

First off, notice the throne room's condition. The floor level is covered in snow and ICE while the roof looks to be burnt, as if by FIRE. Um hello? ICE and FIRE anyone?

Second, the Iron Throne is covered in snow. Dany observes it, hears her dragons, then follows their cries to the next area which is... The Wall?! Hmmm the throne covered in snow and the scene immediately following that is at the wall. Jon Snow come to anyone's mind? Could be nothing, or could be something much more.

As for the whole thing with the prophecies and betrayals. Someone mentioned this earlier but all of these can be easily explained or presented by someone else at a later time. Look at how the dragonglass was found. In the book Jon found it whereas in the show Sam discovered it. Different characters at different times, same results. No harm no foul. The betrayals not being included now doesn't mean it's written out of the show, it'll just come at a different time.

Excellent post.

[Caris]

Hey, first post.

So, this was very different from what I expected--none of the stuff from the book was there! However, upon reflection, the version they went with makes a lot of sense for the show. Rather than presenting a string of things that are, frankly, unrelated to Dany personally, we are presented with the two things she probably thinks about most: the Iron Throne, which is what she's after, and her family, which is lost to her. While things like the RW and the blue rose are interesting and important and stuff for the readers, the visions in the book were brought on by the inherent magic of the setting and the special drink, and the Undying specifically offered her this kind of insight. In the show, she is there to get her dragons back, and the visions function almost as bait, or a way to catch her off-guard so she could be captured.

With this purpose in mind, the snow and the wall are a bit baffling, being a pretty clear attempt at foreshadowing. So maybe I've got it all wrong. But I did do a small fangirl dance upon seeing the broken-up throne room full of snow, being rabidly pro-Jon.

[Zeroday22]

The throne is covered in snow. Anyone think that has something to do with jon snow? Then showing the wall in the next scene

[Honey Badger]

And who would understand that other than book redaers?

I never understood this position. If you look at other HBO shows, namely The Wire and Deadwood, there are some pretty dense story elements that are placed in those shows. HBO presumably thinks their audience is smart. Which is kind of disappointing that Game of Thrones is so mindful of not confusing people and being more "mainstream."

Just FYI; The Wire drops hints that have payoffs 3 to 4 seasons later. That's quite deep for a 5 season show. Putting in prophecies would have been fine, especially the Red Wedding.

[Honey Badger]

First off, notice the throne room's condition. The floor level is covered in snow and ICE while the roof looks to be burnt, as if by FIRE. Um hello? ICE and FIRE anyone?

Second, the Iron Throne is covered in snow. Dany observes it, hears her dragons, then follows their cries to the next area which is... The Wall?! Hmmm the throne covered in snow and the scene immediately following that is at the wall. Jon Snow come to anyone's mind? Could be nothing, or could be something much more.

That's pretty damn good. A Song of Ice and Fire is hinted here in the throne room, with the Prince that was promised as a Stark. Also potential allusion to R + L = J, and the theory that Jon and Dany will eventually join. Still, no Red Wedding? Why even leave that out unless they want to do that next season? Personally, I would have done it here so it's faint in watchers' minds when the event comes. Next season, it may be a little too fresh and obvious.

[EmmaG]

I suppose I'm in the minority here but with them showing the Throne room in snow and ruins I took that as them showing what the next long night would look like, when the others bring the war to the south. Especially considering after this is the scene where Sam sees the undead army.

I am very pro-Jon and a believer in R+L=J, but I had a similar reaction - that the abandoned, neglected throne room indicated the irrelevance of the Iron Throne in the wake of the Others' invasion. I didn't take it as a sign of Jon on the throne, though I can certainly see why others have done so.

[VivaVictarion2]

I totally understand why some plot changes are made-Dany getting her children stolen, imo, was a pretty great way to spice up her CoK storyline. But I'm frankly disgusted at their failure to introduce the "three mounts/betrayls" into the HotU.

[libmanj]

I absolutely agree with you. The episode was good with powerful and emotional moments. The actors were very good too... but what about the most important parts? I mean Daenerys' visions... they dodn't make sense, they don't hint to her future.

How do you know they don't relate to her future? We have two books to go, right?

[bent branch]

When I saw the scenes from the HotU, I was a little stunned. They so completely foreshadow what I have come to believe is Dany's probable story arc, that it was like getting a direct confirmation. I thought that they had made it too blatantly obvious what was going on with Dany. Then, I came on the forums. LOL Maybe the scenes weren't as blatantly obvious as I thought (or maybe I don't know as much as I think I do).

First I would like to suggest that the throne room was not burned out. It can be seen at a certain point that there are unmelted candles in a holder. Also, I don't think there are any obvious scorch marks. Instead of the throne room being burned out, I think it is a decaying ruin left after all life has been extinguished by winter. I think the symbolism of this part of the HotU is that, yes, Dany can go to King's Landing and yes, she can take the Iron Throne. However, the Iron Throne will be nothing more than a rusting relic in a crumbling ruin in a land that has been destroyed by winter.

The part where Dany walks out of the Wall gate and finds Drogo and Rhaego, says she can head north and she will find them there. I believe this means she will die. However, I feel no matter which path Dany chooses she will die. Going to the Wall and dying there will lead her to Drogo and Rhaego. Going to King's Landing will leave her with a rusting throne in an empty palace. (Maybe whatever the Others do to reanimate the dead leaves them unable to move on?)

I think Dany's story arc has been about making choices and the consequences that come from that. It is interesting to think about how much "free will" a person with a "destiny" can exhibit. Then again, I may be totally wrong. :dunno:

[FrozenFire3]

How do you know they don't relate to her future? We have two books to go, right?

Yes, definetely :-) But I would have prefered for them to show the visions in the book.

[FrozenFire3]

Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but I figured I'd check the boards to see if anyone else noticed this: about 44 minutes in, when Dany first enters the Throne Room, the camera pans behind her and we see a stained glass window with something BLUE (possibly floral? Can't make it out) in the center and we see her torch burning beneath it. Initially I thought this was purely coincidental, but as we pan around and see the rest of the Throne Room, the other windows have been blasted out. So I'm thinking we readers did get a wink here, albeit a very subtle one. Anyone else notice this or have any thoughts on it?

I thought the same when I re-watched the episode yesterday night. It's the only window in the throne room and there's a sort of blue flower? It may be a very subtle hint to the blue rose...

[Indigo Snow]

Starting my first post here.

Overall, I was happy with what we did get, but sad over what we didn't. It was very cool to see Dany in the Throne room, and then at the wall. The imagery was new and stunning, and leaves much to think about (will have to watch again to go into details). But then, like it's been said above, since we're already at "the house of the undying (and calling it that)," WHY NOT give us a little more? If they didn't wanna spoil the future storylines, or introduce Raegar so early on, or hire a whole bunch of new actors, FINE, I get it! How hard is it to introduce a few more crazy symbols for people to obsess over (I also really wanted the blue rose)? Or keep the prophecies with voices? Or even just make up something else crazy and interesting?! Instead, she just walks around in empty rooms with no sense of urgency, no sense of danger (and the one purple warlock wasn't even all that scary), just... so empty...... What/who were the undying? What are they doing in this empty ass house? What did creepy warlock want to achieve by having Dany and her dragons there? Maybe there was something I missed?

While I do try my best to just enjoy the TV show as a TV show, what they showed just didn't seem to add much significance to Dany's story arc this season (maybe there's some foreshadowing for the far future), or make much sense... I think it couldn've been better if they actually sad down and made a clear definition on what EXACTLY "the house of the undying" means for the TV show, instead of doing something very vague and confusing.

Oh well, there goes my favourite Dany scene of the entire book series. I wonder how they're going to deal with Dany's storyline next season, now there's no prophecies. I understand the challenges they must face trying to adapt this scene, and appreciate their choice to do something entirely different. It just wasn't the most brilliant thing ever (like it was for me in the books). But then, not everything is. :/ I was already pleasantly surprised by the wonder that is Blackwater this season.

[Reposado]

But GRRM had to have given some sort of approval, right? As long as what's shown is consistent with the ending he will write, I'm a bit more accepting of it.

no, he doesn't. he has no say over anything but the episode that he writes. and even that, they can change after he writes it.

as for the prophecies, i think taking them out makes sense because they don't which they will be able to fulfill. the show may not have three mounts, three fires etc.

but what would have been awesome, would have been to do the rhaegar scene as planned with a targed-up kit harrington playing him

[Independent George]

I guess I'm in the minority opinion, but I'm glad they cut the House of the Undying visions, and thought they got it just right.

Some things work on paper that just don't fit a 60-minute television show - you can't take the entire sequence in isolation. It needs to fit the tone and themes in the rest of the episode. I think throwing a David Lynch acid trip in between the poignant moments we got would have been horrible television.

The three images we got were perfect: an ice-covered throne room in a ruined Red Keep, the wall in the midst of a blizzard, and the the life she had and lost. It ties Dany's journey in with Jon's and the War of the Five Kings and hauntingly foreshadows the coming apocalypse. It was beautiful, frightening, and sad all at the same time, which is exactly the right tone for this episode.

What did we really lose out on? A vision of Rhaegar & Elia, The Mad King, the Red Wedding, and the prophecy of threes. I think the last one is probably the most important of them, but even that's not necessary. Dany hasn't left port yet, and Quaithe is still lurking about; I'd actually prefer having the prophecy spoken aloud by a freaky masked woman to having it inside her head. Visions of the past would be nice, but don't move the story forward, and I assume the backstory will continue to be filled in as we go. The Red Wedding foreshadow was a great litle nugget for books separated by three years, but not necessary in a television show which will air in less than a year.

I loved that sequence. The two winter scenes hinted at so much visually without knocking you over the head with it. The scene with Drogo added the emotional weight to personalize the visions. It was perfect for the episode, and the series.

[Bride of Winter]

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with the new visions, if only for the fact that they simply give too much away. by simplifying things for the viewers (a burned throne room covered in snow - really?) they're hinting at an endgame that purposely wasn't yet really alluded to in the books. I don't like that.

and that's assuming they ARE following GRRM's planned end game. if they're not, well, I'm done here.

[lojzelote]

Have I got a poor memory, or wasn't Mirri's 'curse' mentioned in GoT S1? It wasn't, was it? <_<

[notakneeler]

I won't even adress the differences between book HOTU and show HOTU.

As the apologists are constantly saying, this is an adaptation for TV. But even within that parameter, this was very poorly done.

The writers chose to show different visions. I will live with that. But they left out the fear of dany's being trapped in the tower if she opened the wrong door. In the show itnwas more like a liesurely stroll checking out the visions while following the sounds of the dragons. No urgency, no immediate danger, no physical threat to Dany such as in book HOTU.

Where was the menace in the final scene with Pyat Pree? Only ONE undying warlock in that whole tower? He duplicated himself into 13 to kill the counsel. He appears and dissappears instantly in previous scenes. Here he just stands stock still in his single manifestation right in the path of the dragonflame, no dodging, no ambiguity as to which Pyat to burn. Dany shows no fear, even with the magical chains, because her option of getting the dragons to burn Pyat is idiotically easy. This one guy is standing stock still in front of her, even after the dragons puff of smoke, so dracarys. No challenge, no fear, no pay- off. And getting out of the tower is so easy, it is not even shown on screen. That invisible entry door is not even considered bybthe writers as a challenge so no shot of Dany and the dragons tumbling out of the door as the tower burns.

As visual story-telling, this is flat, without suspense or triumph.

The same flatness blankets the whole scene in xaro's bedroom. We are suddenly there. No battle of her miraculously rediscovered Khalasar to gain entry. Where were her people, that we saw massacred in the courtyard, hiding? The TV viewer has to ask themselves where did these guys come from. The Tv viewer has to ask themselves, how did they get in? Weren't there any guards? Nobody is bloody! Xaro is still sleeping, so no sounds of fighting.

At xaro's bedroom, in the after-math, Dany is cool as a cucumber. No reason for her to care about xaro's betrayal, theybhave no personal relationship. But her totally flat emotional reaction to DOreah's betrayal rings very false. She does not engage in any conversation with Doreah...no why's, no how could you's, no you leave me no choices, just shove her in the vault to die.

[WhiteWalder]

I won't even adress the differences between book HOTU and show HOTU.

As the apologists are constantly saying, this is an adaptation for TV. But even within that parameter, this was very poorly done.

The writers chose to show different visions. I will live with that. But they left out the fear of dany's being trapped in the tower if she opened the wrong door. In the show itnwas more like a liesurely stroll checking out the visions while following the sounds of the dragons. No urgency, no immediate danger, no physical threat to Dany such as in book HOTU.

Where was the menace in the final scene with Pyat Pree? Only ONE undying warlock in that whole tower? He duplicated himself into 13 to kill the counsel. He appears and dissappears instantly in previous scenes. Here he just stands stock still in his single manifestation right in the path of the dragonflame, no dodging, no ambiguity as to which Pyat to burn. Dany shows no fear, even with the magical chains, because her option of getting the dragons to burn Pyat is idiotically easy. This one guy is standing stock still in front of her, even after the dragons puff of smoke, so dracarys. No challenge, no fear, no pay- off. And getting out of the tower is so easy, it is not even shown on screen. That invisible entry door is not even considered bybthe writers as a challenge so no shot of Dany and the dragons tumbling out of the door as the tower burns.

As visual story-telling, this is flat, without suspense or triumph.

The same flatness blankets the whole scene in xaro's bedroom. We are suddenly there. No battle of her miraculously rediscovered Khalasar to gain entry. Where were her people, that we saw massacred in the courtyard, hiding? The TV viewer has to ask themselves where did these guys come from. The Tv viewer has to ask themselves, how did they get in? Weren't there any guards? Nobody is bloody! Xaro is still sleeping, so no sounds of fighting.

At xaro's bedroom, in the after-math, Dany is cool as a cucumber. No reason for her to care about xaro's betrayal, theybhave no personal relationship. But her totally flat emotional reaction to DOreah's betrayal rings very false. She does not engage in any conversation with Doreah...no why's, no how could you's, no you leave me no choices, just shove her in the vault to die.

I think the whole point of the scene was to show that Xaro was not all he seemed, like everything in Qarth. Xaro would not have many guards because he could not afford them. The city of Qarth (tv version) was like one big lie. The "kings" are not rich and powerful as they would have you beleive, the house of the undying is one big fantasy world, and all the people were liars.(like when the trading kings said they did not want Dany to come into the city, although they were all interested enough to come out and greet her) The whole place was like one big metaphor for "not everything is at it seems."

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

I think the RW foretelling would have been way too obvious and would ruin the moment for non-readers.

Disappointed not to see any old Targaryens, especially given that rumour about the Mad King scenes.

Thought what they did show was good for the show's version of Dany. How she couldn't even bring herself to touch an imagined throne, one way off in the future when winter has come to Kings Landing.

Hopefully her visit will jolt Dany out of her spoilt brat attitude of season 2. That and the new guidance of Arstan.

The "prophecy" I was always annoyed with in the book :P But I suppose they could have Quaithe show up at some point and say it to her. Wouldn't put it past the show's writers to toy with that character.