[Book Spoilers] House of the Undying

[FrozenFire3]

What I don't understand is why any of you is surprised by HOTU. Have you guys forgotten the 3-eye-crow dream of Bran? I expected them to do the HOTU exactly what they did to that dream. So I actually came out it is pleasantly surprised that they did anything at all, instead of completely pretending it didn't exist.

I just don't know why any of you would expect HOTU to payoff went they've already established that visions/dreams will never be actually depicted on this series.

I knew (although I still hoped...) they would not show the visions from the books. They have removed a lot of dreams/visions/prophecies which, in my humble opinion, are very, very important. But they seem to think the exact opposite.

[HouseLark]

While the complaints about the differences between book HotU and TV HotU are valid, I have a suspicion that a lot of it is more to do with the fact that many complainers just really really wanted to see Rhaegar depicted on screen...

For what it's worth, I liked the TV version. It demonstrated that prophecies are uncertain, open to interpretation and the future is shifting. This contrasts with the certainty of Melisandre's "visions" and also with Jojen's (I always hated how absolute his green dreams were in the books). What could Dany's visions portend? Quite a lot, but I have took the destroyed snowy throne room to be a warning to Dany: the Iron Throne may not be a prize worth pursuing.

Relatedly, I do think that the producers need to start seeding the R+L=J thing throughout the show. The mystery of Jon Snow's parentage is a nice one for fans to talk about but in the show there's absolutely no indication that he's anything other than Ned's son by an unnamed woman. The ambiguity of Jon's parents needs to be played up, if nothing it is a good promotional tool as it gives people something to go crazy about on Twitter etc. As I dais in another thread, they sent Dany on a vision to the Wall, would it have killed the writers to have a close up on a Blue Rose sprouting from it? Even if they didn't say anything more people could have been left wondering. Then next series Meera could have mentioned the Blue Roses Rhaegar gave to Lyanna at Harrenhall, and so the seeds have been sown for a recurring mystery!

[dab0neman]

Why all the love for Dany's Book 2 story line here? The overwhelming opinion before the 2nd season of this show started was that her story was the *worst* in Book 2 with no plot other than wandering around the desert leading up to the HOTU.

I know, the TV show is not following the book and some things precious to us are getting axed but, a rewrite of Dany's arc is fine by me. If it means that she becomes a powerful sorcerous (Take another look at how she breaks out of HOTU in the show again. Her magic is awakening.) or the dragons become far more important in season 3, so be it.

So, why of all the story arcs changed in the show is this one so bad? I liked it all and can't wait for the Unsullied and Dany's reign of terror next season! Now, if they change *that* I'll definitely be PO'd!!!!!

[Dornish Hen]

I, too was very disappointed by the HOTU scenes. I thought it cold have been some pretty freaky stuff, but oh well...

My take on her visions were that these were both futures (not necessarily Dany's) that could have been. With Drogo she saw what her future could have been as a happy family unit. I thought the burned throne room represented what the future could have been had Aerys fulfilled his desire to burn King's Landing and everyone in it. Why they were both covered in snow I couldn't say, but I'm liking the theory of snow representing Snow!

[Sister Goldenhair]

I really didn't have that much of a problem with it. They extended the episode to 70 minutes as it was.

I'm just stuck in a cycle of overanalyzing everything I saw in that scene. Wondering if there was any hidden significance where there probably isn't.

I feel the same, perhaps the book's prophecies are red herrings at best. Thought what was revealed was that the Dragons brought magic back into the world which seems to include the White Walkers. Is Magic good or evil for humans? Maybe the Dragons and the White Walkers are both magic and have to be destroyed by human-kind, one may have brought the other and did something precipitate the dragons hatching.

[Jefimija]

I think it`s better to channel all the nerdrage toward hope that David and Dan hinted what`s going to happen in the end. I liked the scene in the ruined throne room. The very building looked beautiful, like a sign what happens when people are too occupied with struggle for power and forget about a common threat. Makes you wonder what happened with the ones that we have seen there at the beginning of the same episode; how they died during Long night, or how they`re hiding somewher- under the snow :) Scene with Drogo and Rhaego was cheesy. I'm not entirely sure what was the purpose of it (was it a sign that Dany will die beyond the wall and join Drogo and their son?) but to me it was overly pathetic and was added only because most of the audience, judging by the tumblr posts, really missed Khal Drogo.

[baxter]

While the complaints about the differences between book HotU and TV HotU are valid, I have a suspicion that a lot of it is more to do with the fact that many complainers just really really wanted to see Rhaegar depicted on screen...

For what it's worth, I liked the TV version. It demonstrated that prophecies are uncertain, open to interpretation and the future is shifting. This contrasts with the certainty of Melisandre's "visions" and also with Jojen's (I always hated how absolute his green dreams were in the books). What could Dany's visions portend? Quite a lot, but I have took the destroyed snowy throne room to be a warning to Dany: the Iron Throne may not be a prize worth pursuing.

Relatedly, I do think that the producers need to start seeding the R+L=J thing throughout the show. The mystery of Jon Snow's parentage is a nice one for fans to talk about but in the show there's absolutely no indication that he's anything other than Ned's son by an unnamed woman. The ambiguity of Jon's parents needs to be played up, if nothing it is a good promotional tool as it gives people something to go crazy about on Twitter etc. As I dais in another thread, they sent Dany on a vision to the Wall, would it have killed the writers to have a close up on a Blue Rose sprouting from it? Even if they didn't say anything more people could have been left wondering. Then next series Meera could have mentioned the Blue Roses Rhaegar gave to Lyanna at Harrenhall, and so the seeds have been sown for a recurring mystery!

If you look for it, it's there. First off, they reference bastards a LOT in the show. To me it's something they are building to a crescendo. Look at the duel between Qhorin and Jon. He calls out Ned and the whore mother. Early on you have scene with Robert in front of Lyanna's grave, but a few episodes after, you have Osha and Bran in the crypts, and Bran describes his aunt's tomb saying that Lyanna was stolen by Rheagar and the whole war was because of Robert's love of her (when they had that scene I pretty much knew they were going to quietly lead his parentage in that direction - it was pointless to the plot at that point). You have Jon being constantly ridiculed for being a bastard as everyone's immediate insult of him. At some point a few episodes back, he screams at Ygritte that he is the son of Ned Stark. The obscene hatred of Cat towards Jon, Luwin telling Osha they will only be safe with Jon, etc. You'll have next season with Ramsay's entire bastard to Bolton line, building up to Robb naming Jon a true Stark despite Cat's protestations. People will start hoping for Jon to be named a Stark because he's been dissed so much from the get go, but they'll start sprinkling in small references to the past, because when Robb is murdered everyone is going to lose hope for Jon being rewarded. I suspect they'll do it, naturally, through Dany's storyline as she learns about the past of her brother through Barristan (also I chuckle about everyone freaking out about prophecies, Quaithe will probably be the medium as well as Dany's dreams).

The prophecies in the House to me, were really well done after I viewed a second time, first off, the snow in the throne room can be read multiple ways, there is that random colored glass with a blue center (the only color in the entire room by the way), he walking out through the wall and past it, the baby not having blonde hair, leaving her love behind. It would have been too obvious to bookreaders / completely confusing to non-book readers, to bring in Rheagar then, the RW, etc. TV is about building up to penultimate episodes late in the season. They foreshadow the shit out of the RW enough already with Robb/Cat dialogues.

I figured out R+L=J in the first novel, it was super apparent to me (unless GRRM meant it to be), so I suspect he thought it would be wrapped up in his original trilogy so the payoff wouldn't take so long. At this point I think George will try and delay it till the final book, but its pretty much obvious that Bran will probably find out early on in the next book as he nearly does in that weirwood scene.

[Nipz]

And who would understand that other than book redaers?

I don't know, but they put the horse shit in and people complained about it not being in front of the throne, lol. At the same time people are complaining that Bran wasn't in the basket on Hodor's back, like they think that Hodor is Hodor, and not some actor playing Hodor whom isn't 7 feet tall with the strength of 5 men, lol.

I think with the blue lips and magic in the house of the undying the mystic-ness of a blue rose growing out of snow would have been acceptable. Even a quick shot where Dany pricks her finger on a thorn (and shows a drop of "blood" lol) would have been cool.

I would have had Pyatt Pree saying the dragons are safe and with the undying, then giving her the shade of the evening, and instructing her to take only the right doors, and so on.

[bardgal]

-- although I wonder if the dragon fire trick will be used again when Dany accepts the tokar next season. It kind of loses its impact when used twice.

Not if they're bigger.

[kephv]

Why all the love for Dany's Book 2 story line here?

Why not? Is there a problem with loving Dany's ACoK storyline?

The overwhelming opinion before the 2nd season of this show started was that her story was the *worst* in Book 2

I don't know where you get that.

with no plot other than wandering around the desert leading up to the HOTU.

Wrong. She didn't just show up there for no purpose. And she wandered around the desrert for half a chapter, so it's not like there was a lot of time wasted there.

I know, the TV show is not following the book and some things precious to us are getting axed but, a rewrite of Dany's arc is fine by me. If it means that she becomes a powerful sorcerous (Take another look at how she breaks out of HOTU in the show again. Her magic is awakening.) or the dragons become far more important in season 3, so be it.

Dany didn't become a powerful sorcerous. Her dragons spit fire, which they were always going to do anyway.

So, why of all the story arcs changed in the show is this one so bad?

Yes. It was pretty bad. Would you honestly have rather read about this than what was in the books?

[wotad]

it was perfect you guys want to much me i love dany and only watch the show for her and i was happy with this

[WTFSalami]

Why all the love for Dany's Book 2 story line here? The overwhelming opinion before the 2nd season of this show started was that her story was the *worst* in Book 2 with no plot other than wandering around the desert leading up to the HOTU.

I know, the TV show is not following the book and some things precious to us are getting axed but, a rewrite of Dany's arc is fine by me. If it means that she becomes a powerful sorcerous (Take another look at how she breaks out of HOTU in the show again. Her magic is awakening.) or the dragons become far more important in season 3, so be it.

So, why of all the story arcs changed in the show is this one so bad? I liked it all and can't wait for the Unsullied and Dany's reign of terror next season! Now, if they change *that* I'll definitely be PO'd!!!!!

The wasn't "her magic awakening" it was Pyat Pree's magic dying.

[boojam]

The wasn't "her magic awakening" it was Pyat Pree's magic dying.

What a shaggy dog outcome, to die in the house of the undying!

[LostSoul]

Episode 10 just spoiled it for me because of the way they portrayed House of Undying as its the best chapter of the whole book for me, and ever since season 2 started I was really looking forward to see dany with her prophecies.

[I_am_the_Dragon]

I think people need to cut the producers some slack. I mean, there are budget and time restraints that I'm sure prevented them from getting everything they wanted in the scene. Plus most of the visions are not really that vital to the storyline and take away some of the element of surprise for future events. Why allude to the red wedding when you could just watch it unfold later on. I think they just didn't want any non-book readers to figure things out that are meant to be shocking when they happen. Point is, they are just unnecessary and would cost a lot of money to recreate. The only one I could see as being slightly more important is the Rhaegar/Elia/Aegon one, and that one would just confuse non-book readers since the show really doesn't really go into much detail about them.

As for the three betrayals and such, I actually do think those are pretty important to storyline and should be included. However, those can easily be added in next season. So, I refuse to be annoyed by their absence until we see if they are brought up next season. Although, if season 3 rolls around and the three betrayals are not included, I will be really mad because of the part they play in Dany's treatment of Jorah. Without them Dany's decision will come off as being super harsh.

[Roose Seal]

Can someone clear this up for me?

When Dany speaks to Drogo and recites Mirri's "prophecy" she goes : "Until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. Until the rivers run dry and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves then you will return to me my sun and stars"

Is it just me or does this sentence make no sense from a grammatical point of view ?

Shouldn't it be :

"Not until A, not until B, will you return to me"

or

"You won't return to me Until A, Until B" ?

It sounds to me as though "You will return to me until the sun rises in the west" is really not the same thing as "You will return to me when the sun rises in the west"

He can only return once but the use of "until" makes it sound like he'll return to her over and over again until the sun rises in the west, at which point he will stop returning.... which is the opposite of what the prophecy is supposed to say, isn't it ?

Why didn't they just keep the original phrasing of "When A, when B, only then will he return"?

[King Bobby B]

They can add the three Betrayals later via Quaithe. Seriously it's an adaptation, it has to be interesting for tv. Dany's Qarth storyline is a snooze fest in COK until the HOTU. Would I like the prophecies? Sure, but they can be added later. Plus we are 5 of 7 books in and none have happened.

What do you mean, none have happened? What about the Red Wedding, or Dany riding through her slaves on her horse, or shadows dancing around in a tent and killing Renly?

[Adar]

I agree. I thought that was pretty cool, and it was also interesting how Dany walks up to the throne (in the snow) but never touches it. She walks outside and it is the wall, but .....but.... maybe I'm dumb, but I did NOT understand the purpose of Drogo and the son. What was that? I really don't get it.

It made me cry. I thought it was a beautiful scene actually. People read books to stimulate their minds. People watch movies and tv to stimulate their emotions. *shrugs*

[Mumatil]

Honestly, I see alot of awesome scenes that don't make it to the how, of course i would destroy the budget, but I think this just proves point of instead of live action we should have done animation.

Draw as many motherfucking horses as you damn well please.

[seppuku]

IWhy all the love for Dany's Book 2 story line here? The overwhelming opinion before the 2nd season of this show started was that her story was the *worst*

Matter of opinion. And even it was true, the book is so good that her storyline being the weakest isn't a bad thing. Besides that, HOTU has the argument for *best* of book 2 and the show completely and utterly screwed it up. Badly.

Your argument is terrible and makes no sense.

I know, the TV show is not following the book and some things precious to us are getting axed but, a rewrite of Dany's arc is fine by me. If it means that she becomes a powerful sorcerous (Take another look at how she breaks out of HOTU in the show again. Her magic is awakening.) or the dragons become far more important in season 3, so be it.

Huh? Please make sense

So, why of all the story arcs changed in the show is this one so bad?

Because it was out right terrible. Not sure whats hard to understand about that. Even ignoring the butchering of the book, it was extremely hacky writing.