(Book Spoilers) Foreshadowing and Symbolism in Episode 10

[Fragile Bird]

Somewhat tangential - Overall I still think that the story cant be Dany + Jon as king and queen of westeros defending the realm against the others while Frodo Bran throws the ring of power in to Mt. Doom wargs into the land of always winter to defeat the heart of winter. My wild ass guess is I think Dany is much more destructive than she thinks and everything she touches turns to ash eventually. Ice and Fire fight, but not to protect the realm but to consume it, which they largely do. Davos and Rickon emerge from Skagos to repopulate the world where magic has consumed itself, leaving the world empty for man.

Have you seen this thread HKO? You may enjoy participating in the discussion.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67950-ragnarok-and-the-series-ending/page__pid__3263490#entry3263490

[Hoya Karsa Orlong]

Have you seen this thread HKO? You may enjoy participating in the discussion.

http://asoiaf.wester...90#entry3263490

excellent thank you.

[FiveByeSeven]

Gonna throw my hat in here. This thread is such fun to read. It actually appreciates the HoTU in the show, instead of being a collection of rants about how it ruined what was in the book.

Seeing Dany finally step into the throne room was stunning. My first take was that the blasted throne room was a possible future wherein Dany and her full-grown dragons have laid waste to the realm. It felt like a strong callback to the season-long thread of how Harrenhal was destroyed by dragons. The roof even looked like it was burned by dragonfire, the same way Harrenhal looks.

Alternately, it looked like a future where Winter had finally come, and obliterated every living thing in the realm, rendering the war and the game of thrones pointless. This ties in with the finale's final scene, with the White Walkers unleashing their undead hordes in force.

I never considered that the vision of the Wall was a prophecy. I felt like the writers took this opportunity to place Dany in settings where she may even never set foot in the story, i.e. King's Landing and the Wall.

I'm enjoying this thread. Glad to see viewers unpacking and appreciating what the writers gave us. Thank you for not griping!

[Fragile Bird]

Gonna throw my hat in here. This thread is such fun to read. It actually appreciates the HoTU in the show, instead of being a collection of rants about how it ruined what was in the book.

<snip>

I'm enjoying this thread. Glad to see viewers unpacking and appreciating what the writers gave us. Thank you for not griping!

Positive feedback! :D

It's such a pleasure when we can all look at an episode like this and talk with enthusiasm about we saw. We don't have to agree with each other, just enjoy our opinions!

[Brave Danny Flint]

Gonna throw my hat in here. This thread is such fun to read. It actually appreciates the HoTU in the show, instead of being a collection of rants about how it ruined what was in the book.

Seeing Dany finally step into the throne room was stunning. My first take was that the blasted throne room was a possible future wherein Dany and her full-grown dragons have laid waste to the realm. It felt like a strong callback to the season-long thread of how Harrenhal was destroyed by dragons. The roof even looked like it was burned by dragonfire, the same way Harrenhal looks.

Alternately, it looked like a future where Winter had finally come, and obliterated every living thing in the realm, rendering the war and the game of thrones pointless. This ties in with the finale's final scene, with the White Walkers unleashing their undead hordes in force.

I never considered that the vision of the Wall was a prophecy. I felt like the writers took this opportunity to place Dany in settings where she may even never set foot in the story, i.e. King's Landing and the Wall.

I'm enjoying this thread. Glad to see viewers unpacking and appreciating what the writers gave us. Thank you for not griping!

The bit in bold I had not considered before, that is a fresh perspective. The visions could be highlighting that Dany will never reach Westeros at all, her dragons will lead her down a different path, they call her back repeatedly during her vision: from the iron throne and from her husband and son beyond the wall. Where her dragon will lead her in book 6 and beyond is anyone's guess. I do hope that her going beyond the wall means that she will eventually get their though. For good or for worse it will be thrilling to see what happens when Dany finally gets to go home.....

[Areo Speedwagon]

A lot of great ideas here.

I liked the HotU scene. I had re-read the scene a few weeks ago and in the first door Dany sees those rat-things raping and eating a woman. When I read that, I was thought yeah, they're not going to do this. So I wasn't expecting a literal scene. And I think for viewers, the image of a man with a wolf's head would have been waaaay too obvious. I've read many people on this forum complaining about the fact that they might be getting spoiled with what D&D are showing (a position I find utterly preposterous. A spoiler is "hey, at the end of book 6 Snape kills Dumbledore." That is a spoiler. Foreshadowing isn't a spoiler. I wonder if when they read the Red Wedding if they yelled "UGH! That was so spoiled in the House of the Undying!" I doubt it. - but I digress)

Where was I? Oh, I took the condition of the Red Keep to mean that winter has consumed Westeros, which I think it will. I think Dany will set out from Essos with purpose, confidence, and fire (literally and figuratively), she will get to the shores and her shoulders will drop, it will be a broken and battered place, occupied by a frozen enemy. As the scene played out though, I made the connection of Fire and Ice. And I that's the main point. A surrogate for Rhaegar's quote. Like all good conspiracy theories, they gave us just enough to give us a vague idea but not enough to grasp on to anything solid.

Lastly, I really liked the zombie horde scene and liked how the white walker looked on his dead horse. But why was it so bright out? Someone on this thread, can't recall the name, has his avatar as a closeup of the WW from the ep a little darker than they appeared in the episode and it looks effing great. Maybe my screen was too bright, but, with all the talk about how they only come in the long night, no love of the sun, they came in what looked like the middle of the afternoon. At least make the blizzard a little thicker or something. If it was dusk, or a just a little darker I think that scene would have been truly great.

[FiveByeSeven]

I really liked the zombie horde scene and liked how the white walker looked on his dead horse. But why was it so bright out? Someone on this thread, can't recall the name, has his avatar as a closeup of the WW from the ep a little darker than they appeared in the episode and it looks effing great. Maybe my screen was too bright, but, with all the talk about how they only come in the long night, no love of the sun, they came in what looked like the middle of the afternoon. At least make the blizzard a little thicker or something. If it was dusk, or a just a little darker I think that scene would have been truly great.

Dramatic license. Until that point, the Walkers have been kept in shadows with only the vaguest hint of detail. It was also symbolic of how the detached they were from the realm as even the blinking idea of a threat.

Now we have that breathtaking, full-body, in-your-face reveal of a White Walker astride a zombie horse, staring the viewer in the face. D&D commented they couldn't think of a better way to end the season, and to put an exclamation mark to the True Threat beyond the wall.

(I hope they include the wight polar bears at the Fist! That would catapult the insanity to unimagined levels.)

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

My straightforward initial reading was that she is the one who will destroy KL.

But the throne room was burnt ALREADY when she got there. If she were to destroy it and that were the message, there might have been something in there that gave a hint of Dothraki presence or the sort?

Let's not forget, the drama never once said that these were visions of the future. As far as the drama is concerned, she was just tripping in a fantasy. I'm not entirely sure these things have any meaning at all.

[Fragile Bird]

But the throne room was burnt ALREADY when she got there. If she were to destroy it and that were the message, there might have been something in there that gave a hint of Dothraki presence or the sort?

Let's not forget, the drama never once said that these were visions of the future. As far as the drama is concerned, she was just tripping in a fantasy. I'm not entirely sure these things have any meaning at all.

But going in the HotU is supposed to be a revealing experience is it not? Not just fantasy?

[koststerg]

Two things

1) when Dany is in the throne room, she looks up and sees something like a spider web with a spider on it. I don't remember if that thing is normally there from previous shots of the room but if it is not then it could imply that Kings Landing is destroyed by the Others or that it will be a major battle scene between the Others and Dany

2) Melisandre tells Stanis he is AA and that he will betray his family and his men in order to win. I think this will be true but for the real AA which I think is Jon (George has said that Jon's story will have some darker turns or something like that)

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I don't mind them not having the visions that where in the books. even though I really wanted to see them. While it would have been cool to see the blue rose at the wall but the signifagence would have been lost since we never got the TOJ. Also part of the fun of speculating is that dany doesn't recognize the people she see. But since we don't see the visions through her pov the vision of Stannis with really blue eyes( at least I think it's him) wouldn't have been as mysterious.

TBH I thought what we got was really good. Another way you can interpret the snow on the iron throne besides it being Jon is that once winter comes the Iron Throne ain't gonna mean shit.

[Areo Speedwagon]

Dramatic license. Until that point, the Walkers have been kept in shadows with only the vaguest hint of detail. It was also symbolic of how the detached they were from the realm as even the blinking idea of a threat.

Now we have that breathtaking, full-body, in-your-face reveal of a White Walker astride a zombie horse, staring the viewer in the face. D&D commented they couldn't think of a better way to end the season, and to put an exclamation mark to the True Threat beyond the wall.

(I hope they include the wight polar bears at the Fist! That would catapult the insanity to unimagined levels.)

First off, 110% yes about wight polar bears. I had forgotten about that and now that you bring it up, I'm really hoping for it.

Second, while I completely understand what you're saying, and my breath was certainly taken, it just didn't seem to fit the mythology that was set up for them. This show will probably be somewhere between 6 to 8 seasons (I hope) assuming the rating stay as high as they are. So the end of season 2 represents, roughly, the end of Act I. And at the end of Act I's, we get a massive event, and this was that event and I loved it. And you're absolutely right in using the word detached to describe them in relation to the story. The whole episode was great GoT political intrigue, etc. Even Dany's brush with magic/insanity was set up. We knew she was going to a house of warlocks, we expected some weird shit to go down. But that only set you up to be slapped across the face by the WWs having that come out of no where. I guess my point is having a little more snow whipping around or having maybe even one hour maybe even a half hour darker wouldn't have obscured them by much, just fit the mythology they are supposed to occupy. Or maybe I'm masochistic and just like being withheld from.

Lastly, Fragile Bird, it seems no one is taking you up on your call to discuss Stannis and Mel, so I will. I love Dillane as Stannis. Ever since he had Matthos (?) take 'beloved' out of the letter I have been in his corner. Even though I knew Stannis was going to lose the Blackwater, I was cheering for him every step of the way. I read an interesting review that I'll quote a little. He says that when Stannis is staring into the flame, it was his favorite moment of the episode because: "all of us are standing there with him, sucking in our collective breath, and getting ready for the plunge to come." Later he elaborates a little and says basically that in that scene, Mel is a sort of surrogate for the writers and they're talking to the audience. Her asking him to see what's coming was D&D kind of saying "you think you know?" Then they ended the episode with a zombie horde, confirming that, no, non book readers, don't even try to predict where this is going. FiveByeSeven's insanity catapult comes to mind.

As to the foreshadowing, I don't really know what Mel meant by saying he would betray everything and I stopped trying to predict GRRM a long time ago. I can see where some would take that as a hint of him becoming the Night's King. Maybe she was speaking more cryptically, as she does, and meant he will betray who he used to be as a man stomping his foot on the ground claiming that a metal chair is his "by rights." That he will become something more. That in betraying that man, he will become the one who "saves the realm to win the throne" instead of "winning the throne to save the realm" as Davos tells him.

[Honey Badger]

I like what the scene alludes to, and in a way it's more powerful than the visions found in the books. The roof is burned and open, and snow and ash fall down. It's cold and you can hear dragons screaming in the background. She never actually touches the throne. Then it moves to the Wall.

I think this means Dany and Jon take the throne, but expect a Pyrrhic victory. Everything Dany touches turns to ash. Jon taking the throne will be blasphemy, as did any Lord Commander who decided to play the game of thrones. I think they'll die reigning an empty husk of a kingdom. Winter will come, and the undead will cleanse the world. Man will return, but it will be different. The throne room scene is essentially D&D showing us a nuked world.

[Honey Badger]

Another way to look at the throne room is "his was the song of Ice and Fire." We see both elements co-mingled. And Dany and Drogo's baby scene was showing the prince that was promised.

[Harland Flint]

At first I did not like the HotU visions, because I was very looking forward to a vision of the RW, subtly changed to make it less obvious. After reading people's interpretations of the throne room and the Wall, I'm happier.

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but I wanted to add my alternate interpretation of the throne room vision.

The throne room represents Dany's inner psychological state. Her motivation to take Westeros is to find a home and family; this is why she approaches the Iron Throne in the vision. However, she is uncertain that it will be the home she was promised, she has doubts. She begins to realise that she already has a family, her dragons (which explains the five minute scene in episode 8). This is why she hesitates to touch the throne, the sound of her Dragon family, and the memory of her lost family with Drogo lure her away. Dany must let go of these things if she is to claim the throne.

Why did she go to the Wall? I have nfi. I hope this stimulates a few people's conspiracy organs :)

[Fragile Bird]

Harland Flint, I think she went to the Wall because she and Jon Snow need to work together. Half the time I think there will be a great epic battle at the Wall, and the other half of the time I think the Others will sweep down as far south as the Trident, and the battle will be there. But both Dany and Jon will play roles.

[Strider]

This has been a very good thread. Instead of the incessant complaining about the changes the HBO writers have made, folks have tried to interpret and appreciate Dany's HBO-visions on their own terms.

Personally, I do not believe that they are prophetic foreshadowings at all. I think they tell us something about her inner state and perhaps function as tests or temptations.

Perhaps not yet mentioned (though I may have missed it) is that role of the Warlocks here. The visions are given to her precisely by the Warlocks who intend to imprison her. Hence they must serve in some way to break her will and spirit. They want her to accept her imprisonment, for the sake of her dragons. But of course they do no such thing.

As far as visions in Martin's book that foreshadow the future, as I mentioned in my previous comment, they are so ambiguous and so open to any interpretation they are virtually meaningless. Except in one sense--priests, priestesses, magicians, politicians, and anyone else in Westeros who seeks to gain power can and will exploit them to advance their power. They are very seductive--witness all the time and energy devoted to this theme by the readers of the books. I really believe that in the end we will discover that they have been duped, just like all the characters in Martin's books who took them seriously.

[Fragile Bird]

Lastly, Fragile Bird, it seems no one is taking you up on your call to discuss Stannis and Mel, so I will. I love Dillane as Stannis. Ever since he had Matthos (?) take 'beloved' out of the letter I have been in his corner. Even though I knew Stannis was going to lose the Blackwater, I was cheering for him every step of the way. I read an interesting review that I'll quote a little. He says that when Stannis is staring into the flame, it was his favorite moment of the episode because: "all of us are standing there with him, sucking in our collective breath, and getting ready for the plunge to come." Later he elaborates a little and says basically that in that scene, Mel is a sort of surrogate for the writers and they're talking to the audience. Her asking him to see what's coming was D&D kind of saying "you think you know?" Then they ended the episode with a zombie horde, confirming that, no, non book readers, don't even try to predict where this is going. FiveByeSeven's insanity catapult comes to mind.

As to the foreshadowing, I don't really know what Mel meant by saying he would betray everything and I stopped trying to predict GRRM a long time ago. I can see where some would take that as a hint of him becoming the Night's King. Maybe she was speaking more cryptically, as she does, and meant he will betray who he used to be as a man stomping his foot on the ground claiming that a metal chair is his "by rights." That he will become something more. That in betraying that man, he will become the one who "saves the realm to win the throne" instead of "winning the throne to save the realm" as Davos tells him.

I've watched that scene of Stannis staring in the fire a couple of times again, and I hope Episode 1 of Season 3 tells us more about what he sees in the fire. I thought the subtle changes in Dillane's face as he stared at the fire were excellent. I really have become more comfortable with HBO's GOT and how it's different from the books. I trust we will end up in the same place eventually, although everyone tells me True Blood is totally different from the books. I just think the 2 Ds are such big ASOIAF fans that paths will converge. I really love Davos Seaworth, and have grown to like Stannis more and more through the Onion Knight.

[Hoya Karsa Orlong]

The TV HOTU vision do make sense in the context of the show. But I still think they veered to being mysterious for sake of being mysterious (like Lost) and I am reading way too much into them. It is interesting that it appears to be the Warlock (still frustrated no more undying warlocks besides Pree) that is creating the visions, rather than the nightshade that Dany drinks in the books, so arguably the visions are intended to be more like traps and less like prophecy.

Final minor point, is it just me or is there some parrellel between the HOTU TV vision of the ruined Red Keep and the ruined keep of Summerhall? Maybe it was the vision of a Targ in a ruined keep. But Rhager visited Summerhall to sleep and brood. The HOTU vision almost echoes that with his sister seeming to brood over a similiarly ruined keep. And just to bring it full circle, to date I think the character that is most undeniably good is Duncan and to a lessor extent Egg - and they end up dying in giant explosion. Hard to see how a similiar fate is not likely for this crop of "good guys" (loosely - the Starks, Dany, Brienne, Tyrion and maybe Jaime).

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

GRRM have told D&D how his saga will end, and the key plot points on the journey. That is known for a fact.

Just had a somewhat disconcerting thought. If GRRM doesn't finish the series, for whatever reason, then the vision of the end we may get will be that of the showrunners. How weird would that be in terms of arguing "canon"?