(Book Spoilers) Foreshadowing and Symbolism in Episode 10

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

The others will take over Westeros, at least as far as Kings Landing - Thats what the ruined throne room with snow coming down made me think of.

I think that's a pretty huge point. Because if the Others get that far, then they've occupied a huge part of Westeros, and a military victory over them (even with dragons) would seem very implausible, and certainly take more than one book. So where is the fight, and hopefully, ultimate victory of summer going to be held?

If KL is overrrun, I suspect the key to it all is going to be a "behind the lines" battle at Winterfell, which we were told very early on is fed by hot springs underneath to keep it warm in winter. I see Starks and supporters holding out there, and some link involving the Godswood inside the walls of Winterfell, with the Children involved. Because if winter and the Others have gotten as far south as KL, then the only Godswood left under the control of men may be the one inside the walls of Winterfell.

[Brave Danny Flint]

At first I did not like the HotU visions, because I was very looking forward to a vision of the RW, subtly changed to make it less obvious. After reading people's interpretations of the throne room and the Wall, I'm happier.

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but I wanted to add my alternate interpretation of the throne room vision.

The throne room represents Dany's inner psychological state. Her motivation to take Westeros is to find a home and family; this is why she approaches the Iron Throne in the vision. However, she is uncertain that it will be the home she was promised, she has doubts. She begins to realise that she already has a family, her dragons (which explains the five minute scene in episode 8). This is why she hesitates to touch the throne, the sound of her Dragon family, and the memory of her lost family with Drogo lure her away. Dany must let go of these things if she is to claim the throne.

Why did she go to the Wall? I have nfi. I hope this stimulates a few people's conspiracy organs :)

I like your interpretation. I also like the "nfi" about Dany being at the wall. This is the one "Lost" moment in the whole of the Game of Thrones series so far and it has everybody slavering over it. Talk about throwing the book fans a bone! Nothing about the blue rose, nothing about the dead man on a boat with grey lips, nothing about the ptwp. Just Dany at the wall. D&D really do know how to keep us dangling on a hook!

[Hasfast]

I don't know if it has been mentioned before, but I really loved when Arya refuses Jaqen's proposal on the grounds of having to find Robb and Cat... And Sansa. I think I'm not the only one who hopes for this encounter in the books, and it's nice they pointed on that direction in the show. D.R.

[Fragile Bird]

I think I'd better get back to reading the Heresy threads again, lol. If none of you have read them, take a look, because there are a lot of different angles and viewpoints examined there!

[Valonqar_]

I've been thinking also about the las daenerys chapter of aDWD. There has been the suggestion that she miscarries and that it somehow is a fullfillment of MMD prophecy(Sun sets in the east:Quentyn dies, rises in the west: Doran Martells plans and a possible alliance with aegon, the seas go dry: autumn in the dothraki sea, the mountains blow in the wind: pyramids destroyed by dragons) So, when I watched her child it was very exciting(just to get confuse by the seas-rivers change)

Also, I've noticed that everyone assumes that theRK has been destroyed by real dragons, it could mean, though, that a targaryen/blackfyre (mummer's)drangon(yes, aegon) is to be blamed. So, after putting the realm through more struggle or will doing so, the others will find a way through the Wall and Winter will be feltin the realm.(snow falling)

I had also thought that her dragons or Vyserion and rhaegal at least will be at the Wall( lead there by moqorro and victarion) so that she will have to go there and get involved in the war against the others.

[Areo Speedwagon]

I've watched that scene of Stannis staring in the fire a couple of times again, and I hope Episode 1 of Season 3 tells us more about what he sees in the fire. I thought the subtle changes in Dillane's face as he stared at the fire were excellent. I really have become more comfortable with HBO's GOT and how it's different from the books. I trust we will end up in the same place eventually, although everyone tells me True Blood is totally different from the books. I just think the 2 Ds are such big ASOIAF fans that paths will converge. I really love Davos Seaworth, and have grown to like Stannis more and more through the Onion Knight.

I think we will end up in the same place. I think Storm will be adapted far more faithfully that Clash if for no other reason than D&D have 20 hours to tell the story, not just 10.

If we do find out what Stannis saw in his fire, I think it will be revealed similar to Dany. In GoT we are inside Dany's head so we see her dragon dreams and how that leads to her putting the eggs in the pyre. But we didn't get that in the show. Then in season two (can't remember the ep) we get Dany telling the Qartheen merchant about those dreams and then that "my dreams come true." I thought that was great adaptation. So I think if we do find out what Stannis saw, it will be revealed in a similar way if we get it. And even then, I can see D&D keeping that in their back pocket for half a season.

And yeah, Davos. I saw an interview with Liam Cunningham and he was so excited when he heard about the series because he had been a fan of the books for so long. He auditioned for Ned, but HBO already had a deal with Sean Bean, but D&D pretty much told him that they would stay in touch because there was a character in season 2 they really really liked him for. And now he's Davos. I think it's a testament to his portrayal that he hasn't had that much screen time and his death is one of the biggest cliffhangers for friends of mine that haven't read the books.

[Brave Danny Flint]

I've been thinking also about the las daenerys chapter of aDWD. There has been the suggestion that she miscarries and that it somehow is a fullfillment of MMD prophecy(Sun sets in the east:Quentyn dies, rises in the west: Doran Martells plans and a possible alliance with aegon, the seas go dry: autumn in the dothraki sea, the mountains blow in the wind: pyramids destroyed by dragons) So, when I watched her child it was very exciting(just to get confuse by the seas-rivers change)

Also, I've noticed that everyone assumes that theRK has been destroyed by real dragons, it could mean, though, that a targaryen/blackfyre (mummer's)drangon(yes, aegon) is to be blamed. So, after putting the realm through more struggle or will doing so, the others will find a way through the Wall and Winter will be feltin the realm.(snow falling)

I had also thought that her dragons or Vyserion and rhaegal at least will be at the Wall( lead there by moqorro and victarion) so that she will have to go there and get involved in the war against the others.

Hi where did you read this interpretation of Mirri's prophecy? I would be really grateful if you could send me a link to that section of the forum.

Thanks :)

[BaleriOne]

Episode 10 was the last episode for Season 2, so what were the 2 Ds trying to secretly tell the book reader and the TV viewer? What did you pick up, all you trained Westerosi residents, that maybe other people may have missed? Or, what confused you?

As much as I was disappointed by the HotU scene, I loved the fact that Dany walked into a destroyed throne room, with snow falling down and obliterating everything. Surely even the TV watcher should catch that! And, more important to me the book reader, was the fact that Dany gets so close to the throne, but doesn't actually touch it or even sit in it. What distracts her? Crying - and I couldn't tell if it was still her dragons, or was it supposed to be the baby? I think it was the dragons. And then she so obviously walks out of a gate in the Wall!

What did you see?

For sure visions and omens cast to test her committment to the dragons (yes it was them screaming) - The fall of Westeros was clearly hinted at, if that vision was true, surely dhrogo will return with her child too, if somehow the rivers turn dry... (iced up or flamed up?)

[BaleriOne]

I think it's likely that the HOTU scene was meant to provide various forms of temptations to keep Dany in the HOTU, but if that was the only point, why have her enter a desolate and destroyed throne room? Wouldn't it have been more tempting to have a throne room full of adoring subjects? For this reason, I must believe D&D used the HOTU visions for prophecy as well.

Yep good point, totally agree - temptation and prophetic in one.

[Lady Hummingbird]

As they changed the vision I understood it more closely related to what they left unsaid.

The fact that her husband and child where literally beyond the Wall as a replacement to the blue rose simbolism may be more revealing of Dany's destiny and happiness. As she longs for her family, the vision may have told her where to find it, even Rhaego not being blond may mean something (if it wasn't so clear that the baby is Rhaego I would have suspected he was actually Jon).

The snow in the throne room is the reason she's needed in Westeros, they only have ice so they need her fire. But she also may need ice to balance her own destructive power.

[Valonqar_]

Hi where did you read this interpretation of Mirri's prophecy? I would be really grateful if you could send me a link to that section of the forum.

Thanks :)

I did not read it at this forum, but at this blog ]some time ago.

[Areo Speedwagon]

Fragile Bird, you had asked the thread a while back what they thought of the Stannis and Mel scene from ep 10 and while I answered you in terms of whether or not I liked it, I actually re-watched that episode last night and thought of something to actually contribute. It's been a while so I hope you get this.

Mel told Stannis he would betray "the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear." We've been operating under the assumption that she's talking about Stannis. Before that, when he is choking her asking where her god is, she replies "inside you." A reference to AA. We (the book readers) know that when she's at the wall and asking for visions of AA, all she sees is snow. Now, we were wondering what she meant/how to interpret what she said when she told Stannis you will betray everything, but we know what Stannis does in later books and we know he doesn't really do any of that. Maybe in a metaphorical sense, but that's the best I could come up with.

But taking the interpretation that she's seeing Jon in the fire and doesn't realize it, everything she says to Stannis makes perfect sense, and does happen to Jon. In fact, in this very episode, a mere 10 - 15 minutes after this is when Jon kills Qhorin. Jon will betray his vow to the NW with Ygritte (although who can blame him), he then betrayed the Wildlings by going back to the NW, and the he will seen by some to betray the NW itself in Dance when he let's the Wildlings south.

So basically we have Mel telling us everything Jon is going to do, but thinking it's going to happen to Stannis. I think this might be a really backhanded clue that Jon = AA is true. Unless D&D have some crazy shit in store for Stannis.

[Fragile Bird]

Fragile Bird, you had asked the thread a while back what they thought of the Stannis and Mel scene from ep 10 and while I answered you in terms of whether or not I liked it, I actually re-watched that episode last night and thought of something to actually contribute. It's been a while so I hope you get this.

Mel told Stannis he would betray "the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear." We've been operating under the assumption that she's talking about Stannis. Before that, when he is choking her asking where her god is, she replies "inside you." A reference to AA. We (the book readers) know that when she's at the wall and asking for visions of AA, all she sees is snow. Now, we were wondering what she meant/how to interpret what she said when she told Stannis you will betray everything, but we know what Stannis does in later books and we know he doesn't really do any of that. Maybe in a metaphorical sense, but that's the best I could come up with.

But taking the interpretation that she's seeing Jon in the fire and doesn't realize it, everything she says to Stannis makes perfect sense, and does happen to Jon. In fact, in this very episode, a mere 10 - 15 minutes after this is when Jon kills Qhorin. Jon will betray his vow to the NW with Ygritte (although who can blame him), he then betrayed the Wildlings by going back to the NW, and the he will seen by some to betray the NW itself in Dance when he let's the Wildlings south.

So basically we have Mel telling us everything Jon is going to do, but thinking it's going to happen to Stannis. I think this might be a really backhanded clue that Jon = AA is true. Unless D&D have some crazy shit in store for Stannis.

That is FUCKING brilliant! Areo Speedwagon, you are a genius! That makes the puzzle pieces fit so beautifully. The only question is, did they do this for the book readers, or will we have flashbacks in a couple of years? Or are the writers really stupid and didn't know what they were writing? :lol:

No, I think you are absolutely right. That's one of the better insights I've seen in ages. :bowdown:

[Areo Speedwagon]

That's one of the better insights I've seen in ages. :bowdown:

Thank you!

I am one who has faith in the writers, so I'm going with that they did know what they were doing when they wrote that. I don't think they'll ever have flashbacks. If they didn't do it for the Tower of Joy, I don't think they ever will. Also I think something like that, a structural element, needs to be introduced early on in the series to let the audience know this is going to be a part of the show.

I guess for Stannis going forward the question is will he be influenced by her words? Will this become a self fulfilling prophecy now? I hope not. I really like Stannis in the books and I think Dillane is doing such an amazing job that I can't wait to see him at the Wall, etc. But like I said, I'm one of the ones who think the writers will make the right calls.

Lastly, Mel said in the treating with Renly and in the books "born amidst salt and smoke," That made me think that maybe Jon Snow as we've known him isn't AA. Maybe he is just Jon Snow... until the end of Dance. He'll return from Ghost, reborn, as AA. I'm not saying he'll be aware of it, I actually don't think he will, but that might be the even that makes the light bulb go off for Mel. She'll be able to see it now.

[finishingmove]

My impression was that it was deliberately made ambiguous as to whether it's snow or ashes in the throne room.

I think Dany will eventually come and conquer King's Landing but she will see the real fight is up north, and she will reunite with family there.

That's my simple extrapolation.

[BaleriOne]

My impression was that it was deliberately made ambiguous as to whether it's snow or ashes in the throne room.

I think Dany will eventually come and conquer King's Landing but she will see the real fight is up north, and she will reunite with family there.

That's my simple extrapolation.

Makes sense for it to be snow, as the ceiling and roof have been damaged and Winter has arrived at King's Landing.

Seems like she is arriving there after the fall.I think Daenerys won't be moving across the Narrow Sea for quite some time, she will realize that her dragons will have to grow first, now they are still vulnerable.