Renly's worth and use?

[FatCatOberyn]

Dude, I don't think that yo can find a more decentralised government than the one in Westeros. I'm not sure how Renly could do any worse.

Kings in Westeros only seemed to interfere when they were personally threatened iirc.

And Renly would keep it that way, while Stannis would likely be an absolute monarch.

[Winterfell is Burning]

True, my analogy is a bit flawed. But I don't think I can overstate just how fucking unlikely it was for Melisandre to have powers. It's not even something you can put a figure on. It's ridiculous. There's no way for this to have been factored into any discussions.

True, but he could have thought: "Hey, my brother is an experienced war commander, much more than me If he's coming for a fight, is because he thinks he has a decent chance. Why does he think that?", but it doesn't cross his mind.

And he knew Stannis was unlikely to have any sons, meaning Renly would inherit. But he didn't care, because he was popular and thought of himself as cool and whatnot.

[Winterfell is Burning]

IIRC they changed the law after that, before Rhaenyra was the heir according to the law.

No, Andal costumes were always eldest son comes first, and the Iron Throne followed that. What they changed was that after it, women only inherited when there were no elegible males, which is why Viserys II was King when Baelor had three sisters.

[Winterfell is Burning]

The point is that the rightful heir has been skipped over plenty of times and nothing has come of it. In fact as it stood at that point the king's eldest daughter was supposed to inherit by law. She lost. The realm moved on. Aegon came to power because of a Great Council skipping over people with better claims (hence the nickname "the Unlikely"). The realm moved on.

No, the heir was Aegon II by law. And people didn't moved on- the war continued for his years until both claimants were dead and Aegon's II nephew, Rhaenira's son, took over.

As for the Great Council, it was called exactly for it's power to override the order of succession (which is why Rhaegar wanted to call another). Aegon was called the Unlikely because when he was born he was the 4th son of a 4th son. And we don't know what happened with Aerion Brightflame's children, but I'm thinking they didn't live long, so it was never much of an issue anyway.

[Castel]

No, Andal costumes were always eldest son comes first, and the Iron Throne followed that. What they changed was that after it, women only inherited when there were no elegible males, which is why Viserys II was King when Baelor had three sisters.

I'm looking at the family tree and this was never an issue for Targs. Viserys I was going to give it to his daughter by his decree but Criston Cole forced Andal tradition on the Targs here.

The precedent was to be set by Viserys I, which he did, yet his decision was overruled by Criston Cole, yet Westeros survived this.

[Jaehaerys Sand]

This has already happened. The Dance of Dragons was about this very thing. Aegon the Unlikely came to power because of this and guess what? Nothing happened. That can of worms has already been opened.This is always an issue. The thing is though, like all regimes it is kept in place by force, if Renly is not an idiot like Robert and makes his heir the strongest man then this will not be an issue.

That can of worms was the bloodiest civil war in the history of Westeros. As has already been stated, Andal tradition was that the oldest son rule before any daughter. The Dance of Dragons proved exactly what could and likely would happen in the case of trying to overthrow the line of succession.

Look, Renly had absolutely no need for speed - in fact it was the opposite. As he took his time and upped the pageantry of the grand Stormlands-Highgarden alliance, his perception as potential king rose. His claim was based on perception as much as military might - he had both in spades. Meanwhile his enemies continued to bleed each other as he continued his inevitable march to KL. Then Stannis went to Storm's End. Renly busted ass, with a more-than-adequate force. Stannis was toast barring the shadow-baby, supply lines or no. And once that battle was won (and Stannis certainly held no illusions about his success), KL waited like a ripe...peach.

I don't consider the fight for Storm's End as easily won as Renly seems to think. Renly had nothing but cavalry, Stannis had shield walls, archers, and catapults to aid him. Not to mention his troops were far better rested, not having just completed a two week sprint to the castle. He may not have won, but Renly would have lost thousands of knights when he may have lost a hundred starving Stannis out. Renly himself may have died in the fighting.

And for the thousandth time, Stannis was operating on a scarcely-believable claim with no proof and next-to-zero popular support. Given the events as they were, Stannis would never have been King, even if he had taken KL. The other Houses would not have supported him, and would have considered him a kinslayer (as indeed he became later, at least indirectly).

And what would that make Renly? He would have had to kill all of the people Stannis would kill, and he would have an even worse reason for it.

[Kyle Baratheon]

I think Renly with Tyrion or Stannis as Hand would be excellent. Renly would be a more competant ruler than Joffrey, Balon and Robb (I'd hesitate if i said Stannis, for he would be good too in my eyes.)

But no one is better than Hodor.

[Talleyrand]

I don't consider the fight for Storm's End as easily won as Renly seems to think. Renly had nothing but cavalry, Stannis had shield walls, archers, and catapults to aid him. Not to mention his troops were far better rested, not having just completed a two week sprint to the castle. He may not have won, but Renly would have lost thousands of knights when he may have lost a hundred starving Stannis out. Renly himself may have died in the fighting.

Knights and mounted men can dismount, a huge number do in battle. Catapults are bugger all use in a field battle so if anything that;s taking men away.

Most of Stannis' men are levies with no training and little equipment. Compared to the vast majority of Renly's men being knights or mounted men-at-arms, all of whom will either have experience or training. They're average equipment is of a much higher standar than Stannis. And the huge blow to morale when cavalry charges. How many of Stannis levies are going to want to fight against an army four times their size charging down at them. Many of Stannis' men will break and run after the first charge smashes into them.

[DurararaFTW]

Knights and mounted men can dismount, a huge number do in battle. Catapults are bugger all use in a field battle so if anything that;s taking men away.

Most of Stannis' men are levies with no training and little equipment. Compared to the vast majority of Renly's men being knights or mounted men-at-arms, all of whom will either have experience or training. They're average equipment is of a much higher standar than Stannis. And the huge blow to morale when cavalry charges. How many of Stannis levies are going to want to fight against an army four times their size charging down at them. Many of Stannis' men will break and run after the first charge smashes into them.

Where is this mentioned? Stannis' army is small, but he has been preparing it for war ever since Jon Arryn died.

[jblair]

That can of worms was the bloodiest civil war in the history of Westeros. As has already been stated, Andal tradition was that the oldest son rule before any daughter. The Dance of Dragons proved exactly what could and likely would happen in the case of trying to overthrow the line of succession.

I don't consider the fight for Storm's End as easily won as Renly seems to think. Renly had nothing but cavalry, Stannis had shield walls, archers, and catapults to aid him. Not to mention his troops were far better rested, not having just completed a two week sprint to the castle. He may not have won, but Renly would have lost thousands of knights when he may have lost a hundred starving Stannis out. Renly himself may have died in the fighting.

And what would that make Renly? He would have had to kill all of the people Stannis would kill, and he would have an even worse reason for it.

"Stannis had shield walls, archers, and catapults to aid him. " That would be an interesting battle, to see Stannis encircle one of the strongest fortresses in the world...then turn his back to them to fight an incoming army. Did you expect the Keep's garrison to eat popcorn and just watch? Surely they have their own siege weapons and archers, plus could potentially send out a small strike force and strike from behind. Even if they don't, it's not a possibility Stannis can ignore.

And I don't think Renly would have had to kill the twincest kids - With Robb pressing from the North, the Riverlands still in play tying down Tywin, and a 100k army marching from Highgarden fresh off a decisive victory, I see exile in my crystal ball. Or a Cersei-and-company retreat to Casterly Rock. Now Renly dealing with Robb is a different story...

[Jaehaerys Sand]

Knights and mounted men can dismount, a huge number do in battle. Catapults are bugger all use in a field battle so if anything that;s taking men away.

Most of Stannis' men are levies with no training and little equipment. Compared to the vast majority of Renly's men being knights or mounted men-at-arms, all of whom will either have experience or training. They're average equipment is of a much higher standar than Stannis. And the huge blow to morale when cavalry charges. How many of Stannis levies are going to want to fight against an army four times their size charging down at them. Many of Stannis' men will break and run after the first charge smashes into them.

Stannis called his banners months before on Dragonstone. They have been trained since.

Renly specifically plan to use all of his men mounted during the battle, who would be charging into the shield walls, the very thing designed to stop a cavalry charge. They would be pelted by arrows all the way into battle, on ground torn up by Stannis while he was building siege weapons. His army would be half-blind rushing into the sun and tired by a two week headlong march.

Many factors would help Stannis in that fight, and I don't envy Renly trying to take King's Landing with an army of nothing but greenboys and field hands.

[DurararaFTW]

And I don't think Renly would have had to kill the twincest kids - With Robb pressing from the North, the Riverlands still in play tying down Tywin, and a 100k army marching from Highgarden fresh off a decisive victory, I see exile in my crystal ball. Or a Cersei-and-company retreat to Casterly Rock. Now Renly dealing with Robb is a different story...

We know Cersei wasn't planning to retreat. Neither was Joffrey. Tyrion would still try to get Tommen, perhaps Joffrey too out of the city, but look what happened to him.

[Jaehaerys Sand]

"Stannis had shield walls, archers, and catapults to aid him. " That would be an interesting battle, to see Stannis encircle one of the strongest fortresses in the world...then turn his back to them to fight an incoming army. Did you expect the Keep's garrison to eat popcorn and just watch? Surely they have their own siege weapons and archers, plus could potentially send out a small strike force and strike from behind. Even if they don't, it's not a possibility Stannis can ignore.

And I don't think Renly would have had to kill the twincest kids - With Robb pressing from the North, the Riverlands still in play tying down Tywin, and a 100k army marching from Highgarden fresh off a decisive victory, I see exile in my crystal ball. Or a Cersei-and-company retreat to Casterly Rock. Now Renly dealing with Robb is a different story...

Storm's End was held by a token force. Since they weren't fighting right underneath Storm's End, his flanks could guard against a charge from Storm's End the same as Renly's Army.

Honestly, I don't think Storm's End would be able to stand for a siege that long. It's not like they had time to prepare for a siege and bring in as much food as they could. Stannis just couldn't afford to wait because his troops weren't particularly loyal.

And in regards to the children, we know Renly wanted to kill Danaerys. Exile or no, he was going to have the children killed. This just makes Renly worse to me. With Stannis, I doubt he would have taken any joy in killing the kids (well, maybe Joffrey, but who wouldn't?). He'd feel bad about it, but he would see it as his duty to kill them. He may have even been OK with exile, since we don't know his opinion on Dany and Viserys. But Renly just straight up decided to kill his brother's children because he wanted to be King. That is cold.

[Talleyrand]

Where is this mentioned? Stannis' army is small, but he has been preparing it for war ever since Jon Arryn died.

The vast majority of any army is peasant levies. Even if he has been training them for months it's a few months training vs. trained since childhood. Dragonstone is hardly the richest fief in the 7k, with the kingdom already in debt how is he going to be able to pay to give these men enough equipment to match Renly's?

[A Dance With Daario]

Renly was a expert at flanking and rear assaults :o

[Rolex Baratheon]

Renly wouldn't have made a good king. In this series, winter comes for all the knights, lords and kings of summer. It came for Renly and he died and Stannis lived,

[Lion of Judah]

Renly to me is a tragic figure, he meant well but it was never going to end well for him. He would have been a very good king, perhaps as good as Daeron.

[willy york]

Renly was a expert at flanking and rear assaults :o

he has to have some skill from all that sword fighting with loras

[James Arryn]

So, popularity= quality? This is BS. Tyrion was hated by the smallfolk, yet he was clearly an excellent Hand.

Renly was a knight of summer. There's no chance in hell of him being a decent King in time of difficulty. Can you imagine him leading Westeros against the Others? Hah.

That's your criteria for what makes a good king? Who would best lead Westeros against the Others?

So...maybe, the Hound? Randyll Tarly? The Mountain?

Tyrion was NOT hated by the small folk. They cheered twice as loud for him as for Aerys...only half as much as for Rhaegar, which seems to also be an accurate depiction of their respective quality as potential kings.

Popularity IS important in Feudal politics. Hugely important. It is naive in the extreme to suggest it isn't. And it's not just important in getting the job; it's important in doing the job, and doing it effectively. Renly would have been more effective than Stannis or w/e because he knew how to deal with people, and that's the substance you are working with as a leader...people. People of power, people of station, or people of specific abilities, but the common denominator is they are people, and Renly knew people the way Stannis knows ships.

[jblair]

Renly was a expert at flanking and rear assaults :o

You resurrected a thread for this?