Heresy 13

[GreenHand]

I wasn't sure this deserved its own thread but I thought it worth adding to the Heresy discussion. I'd like to hear the upshot and response.

Let's consider the overt but oblique connection between the Direwolves of the Modern Starks and Death/Undeath. It is strongly suggested that direwolves have a powerful symbolic/historical connection with the Starks. It has been suggested (highly likely, I think) that the Starks of old were direwolf wargs. The latest direwolves are a critical catalyst for connecting the Stark children to their warging and the ways of the Old Gods.

Let's re-examine and comment on this AGOT excerpt in light of all that we have learned since. I quote a little more in case it's relevant.

He gave a yank and held it up for all to see. A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

A sudden silence descended over the party. The men looked at the antler uneasily, and no one dared to speak. Even Bran could sense their fear, though he did not understand.

His father tossed the antler to the side and cleansed his hands in the snow.

"I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.

"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales . . . maybe the bitch was

already dead when the pups came."

"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."

"No matter," said Hullen. "They be dead soon enough too."

Bran gave a wordless cry of dismay.

"The sooner the better," Theon Greyjoy agreed. He drew his sword.

[hotweaselsoup]

Yepp, just the way, I see it, too: WF is the place, where the family is rooted, while the NF (back then most certainly the Winterfort) was the place, they ruled from. We have yet another example for this in the books: The Gates of the Moon were always the family seat of House Arryn, while the Eiry became the place, they ruled from. So the Lords seat was the Eiry, while the youngrr brother held the Gates in his place.

Oh this makes too much sense!

So do you think that "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" was meant to assure that there was always a check against the Stark on the Wall? Have we discussed that it may have been the Night's King, allied with his in-laws the Others, who unleashed the Long Night?

[Daella]

While doing asos re-read, I found the Arya V chapter where they revisit High Heart of interest in regard to magic/red priests/COTF. Thoros builds a fire atop the hill and Arya asks, "Can you see the future there?" Thoros responds, "Not here. Not now. But some days yes...." Later when the Ghost of High Heart arrives, she says to Thoros, "Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still...they linger here as I do....Nor do they love the flames."

Now when Davos is taking Mel to Storm's End (ACOK), she says, "..Storm's End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can pass-ancient and forgotten, yet still in place." It is said that the COTF had a hand in the building of Storm's End.

So it seems that the red priests are not able to use their magic in places that are warded or are sacred to the COTF. What is interesting, is that Mel is at the Wall doing all sorts of magic. She says to Jon (ADWD Jon I), "...I have dreamed of your wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world. This is my place as it is yours....."

With the current topic regarding the weirwoods and the Wall, it seems to me that the COTF weren't involved with the raising of the wall - no godswoods within the castles and no wards that would interfere with the red priests' magic. So what kind of magic went into the building if the Wall?

[7V3N]

snip

Not sure if this is a mistake on my memory or yours, but I thought that Storm's End was believed to be built by Brandon the Builder (who may or may not have been assisted by the CotF).

[Uncat]

It's OK Uncat, I've gone back and crossed it out so now you can make that point ;)

Oh, why thank you, how kind of you! What a pitty, that a saw it only now :(

[Uncat]

Not sure if this is a mistake on my memory or yours, but I thought that Storm's End was believed to be built by Brandon the Builder (who may or may not have been assisted by the CotF).

Most probably it wasn't Bran the Builder. There is an SSM, which prtty much implies, that Martin sees him only as a legend, which he invented along with with other stories for the purpose of world building.

[Uncat]

Oh this makes too much sense!

So do you think that "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" was meant to assure that there was always a check against the Stark on the Wall? Have we discussed that it may have been the Night's King, allied with his in-laws the Others, who unleashed the Long Night?

Never thought about that possibility. I have always assumed, that the Long Night came before the Night's King. But who knows

[Daella]

Not sure if this is a mistake on my memory or yours, but I thought that Storm's End was believed to be built by Brandon the Builder (who may or may not have been assisted by the CotF).

Yes, there are stories about it being built by Bran and that the COTF may have aided...whether there is any truth to it, who knows. I was just trying to make a possible connection to the inefficacy of red magic in places that are associated with the COTF.

[Lykos]

Daella, welcome to the heresy. I´ve speculated that the Wall might cancel out the White / Children´s magic and thus preventing the White Walkers to cross and probably giving Mel´s fire magic a chance to work unhindered but that didn´t catch on.

Now I´m toying with the idea that Bloodraven has sort of taken over Mel, without her noticing.

<snip>

I wanted to answer to you for quite a while. I also have the feeling that there is something changing in Melisandre, though it´s hard to tell because it´s her first POV chapter.

But I have come to a different conclusion. I think Bloodraven is messing with Melisandre´s flame-o-vision (maybe the snow made me think of the white noise in Poltergeist ). I think he is influencing her with increasing success.

<snip>

Didn´t Melisandre also order the Godswood of Storm´s End to be destroyed after she killed Courtney Penrose with her shadowbaby and by that ended the magic protection?

@Uncat, the Aspen analogy just said that the reproduction by root suckers caused them to grow in groves like the weirwoods.

[bloodymime]

Yes, there are stories about it being built by Bran and that the COTF may have aided...whether there is any truth to it, who knows. I was just trying to make a possible connection to the inefficacy of red magic in places that are associated with the COTF.

Not that it means but the children are mentioned before Bran.

"A seventh castle he raised, most massive of all. Some said the children of the forest helped him build it, shaping the stones with magic; others claimed that a small boy told him what he must do, a boy who would grow to be Bran the Builder."

Storm's End also still had a weirwood for a heart tree when there are so few weirwoods in the south at all anymore.

The description of it lends more to magical aid as well rather than simply being told what to do.

[7V3N]

So it seems Mel burned the weirwood in Storm's End to free up her flame-sight. Maybe the weirwood-vision and flame-vision have some sort of interference? Or maybe the "presence" of other gods does that, which is why she burned the sept at Dragonstone. Perhaps the Seven are weaker than the Old Gods or something, so by burning the sept Mel was able to gain better fire-sight.

The septs are weak so they only create a "static" in the fire, while weirwoods and the Old Gods are strong enough to cut it off?

[Mathis Waters]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for it, but I have a bizarre and tenuous conspiracy theory about color.

Rainbows and crystals are central to the Faith, right? Because, like, a ray of refracted light has seven colors, so that shows the unity of seven in one. And nicely there are seven kingdoms associated with seven great houses, seven hells, seven colors of the Faith, seven knights of the Rainbow Guard...

But wait. But Ser Loras as the latter's Lord Commander wears silver mail in a context where everyone else is wearing their associated colors. And the other knights aren't listed in the index as something that would make his color obvious, like ROY G B_V, but as ROY G B and purple.

And look at the colors of the Great Houses: they fit nicely enough into the traditional rainbow scheme, except again the end bit is truncated and we have an additional grey-silver color: Lannister crimson, Martell orange, Baratheon yellow, Tyrell green, Arryn blue, Tully blue and red (making purple), and Stark grey.

Null hypothesis: this is bullshit and I'm seeing association where they aren't there.

Sane alternative hypothesis: they culturally code silver or grey as a rainbow color while truncating BIV into BP. (If you look at a photograph of a rainbow you can sometimes see a silvery ray after the indigo.) ROY G BPG.

Crazy alternative hypothesis: they do the above but still count the silver/grey as the "odd one out," or don't but include silver/grey as a color of the Faith anyway, and this, like, means something, man. (The most obvious way would be for the pre-refracted light to be coded as the silver/grey, but I think there's enough circumstantial evidence that they code that as white.)

Crazy inference 1: Obviously one could come up with any number of justifications for associating one House with some particular god of the Faith, but if we accept that the Stranger is the "odd one out," and that grey/silver is the odd one out, Stark lines up with the Stranger, which aligns with the various heresies about the Starks.

Crazy inference 2: If the Seven are One, and the primary implicit metaphor is the refraction of light, might the Faith share a common ancestor with R'hllorism - the true god as pure light? This isn't necessarily crazy, but wait: what if "the Stranger" is etymologically related to "the Other?" Is the Other actually an aspect or emanation of R'hllor? Or, if we take the Stranger to be associated with the pre-refracted light, does the Stranger = the Other = R'hllor?

Crazy inference 3: Who's going to get all excited about the refraction of light through a prism, anyway? Who would want to create a Faith with absolutely no magical mojo at all? Who wants to build an anthropocentric world (and what Faith is obvious anthropocentric bullshit?) The maesters, duh.

(My apologies if I am posting in the wrong place or if you've discussed this before! I'm intimidated - in a good way - by you all!)

[7V3N]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for it, but I have a bizarre and tenuous conspiracy theory about color.

Rainbows and crystals are central to the Faith, right? Because, like, a ray of refracted light has seven colors, so that shows the unity of seven in one. And nicely there are seven kingdoms associated with seven great houses, seven hells, seven colors of the Faith, seven knights of the Rainbow Guard...

But wait. But Ser Loras as the latter's Lord Commander wears silver mail in a context where everyone else is wearing their associated colors. And the other knights aren't listed in the index as something that would make his color obvious, like ROY G B_V, but as ROY G B and purple.

And look at the colors of the Great Houses: they fit nicely enough into the traditional rainbow scheme, except again the end bit is truncated and we have an additional grey-silver color: Lannister crimson, Martell orange, Baratheon yellow, Tyrell green, Arryn blue, Tully blue and red (making purple), and Stark grey.

Null hypothesis: this is bullshit and I'm seeing association where they aren't there.

Sane alternative hypothesis: they culturally code silver or grey as a rainbow color while truncating BIV into BP. (If you look at a photograph of a rainbow you can sometimes see a silvery ray after the indigo.) ROY G BPG.

Crazy alternative hypothesis: they do the above but still count the silver/grey as the "odd one out," or don't but include silver/grey as a color of the Faith anyway, and this, like, means something, man. (The most obvious way would be for the pre-refracted light to be coded as the silver/grey, but I think there's enough circumstantial evidence that they code that as white.)

Crazy inference 1: Obviously one could come up with any number of justifications for associating one House with some particular god of the Faith, but if we accept that the Stranger is the "odd one out," and that grey/silver is the odd one out, Stark lines up with the Stranger, which aligns with the various heresies about the Starks.

Crazy inference 2: If the Seven are One, and the primary implicit metaphor is the refraction of light, might the Faith share a common ancestor with R'hllorism - the true god as pure light? This isn't necessarily crazy, but wait: what if "the Stranger" is etymologically related to "the Other?" Is the Other actually an aspect or emanation of R'hllor? Or, if we take the Stranger to be associated with the pre-refracted light, does the Stranger = the Other = R'hllor?

Crazy inference 3: Who's going to get all excited about the refraction of light through a prism, anyway? Who would want to create a Faith with absolutely no magical mojo at all? Who wants to build an anthropocentric world (and what Faith is obvious anthropocentric bullshit?) The maesters, duh.

(My apologies if I am posting in the wrong place or if you've discussed this before! I'm intimidated - in a good way - by you all!)

Could be, but I see it as more of GRRM looking for some inspiration (though minor it may be). There is a lot of unoriginal content in this series, such as the continent names (Sothoros, Westeros, Essos).

[Daella]

Thanks for the welcome! I'm a big fan of this Heresy thread!

Didn´t Melisandre also order the Godswood of Storm´s End to be destroyed after she killed Courtney Penrose with her shadowbaby and by that ended the magic protection?

I've seen other posts comment on the burning at Storm's End but I don't recall this happening but maybe I just overlooked it.^^

[Tyryan Lannister]

So on this talk of Mel, I can't remember, does she ever actually cross beyond the Wall? If not, could be that, just as the Wall is warded to prevent the wights from crossing it, maybe it's also warded to prevent the Red Lot from doing so as well? Of course, this is all moot if she has been across the Wall before. I just can't remember if she was on the Wall when "Mance" was burned or if she had set herself up on the ground on the other side of the Wall.

[Lykos]

@Tyryan Lannister: Mel is north of the Wall with Stannis when they attack the wildlings. She burned Varamyr´s eagle, which impressed me quite a bit.

[Mathis Waters]

So on this talk of Mel, I can't remember, does she ever actually cross beyond the Wall? If not, could be that, just as the Wall is warded to prevent the wights from crossing it, maybe it's also warded to prevent the Red Lot from doing so as well? Of course, this is all moot if she has been across the Wall before. I just can't remember if she was on the Wall when "Mance" was burned or if she had set herself up on the ground on the other side of the Wall.

Beneath the weeping Wall, Lady Melisandre raised her pale white hands. “We all must choose,” she proclaimed. “Man or woman, young or old, lord or peasant, our choices are the same.” Her voice made Jon Snow think of anise and nutmeg and cloves. She stood at the king’s side on a wooden scaffold raised above the pit.

So she's definitely been past the Wall, though at least in that instance may not have set foot on the ground.

e: oops, beaten.

[bloodymime]

Thanks for the welcome! I'm a big fan of this Heresy thread!

Didn´t Melisandre also order the Godswood of Storm´s End to be destroyed after she killed Courtney Penrose with her shadowbaby and by that ended the magic protection?

I've seen other posts comment on the burning at Storm's End but I don't recall this happening but maybe I just overlooked it.^^

I don't believe a timeline is mentioned, could be wrong, but yes she definitely has Stannis burn the godswood.

So on this talk of Mel, I can't remember, does she ever actually cross beyond the Wall? If not, could be that, just as the Wall is warded to prevent the wights from crossing it, maybe it's also warded to prevent the Red Lot from doing so as well? Of course, this is all moot if she has been across the Wall before. I just can't remember if she was on the Wall when "Mance" was burned or if she had set herself up on the ground on the other side of the Wall.

What Lykos said, she also goes through the tunnel in her pov to see the ranger heads in Dance with her slowing down while walking to make sure Jon sees how the ice melts from her heat.

[nanother]

Oh this makes too much sense!

So do you think that "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" was meant to assure that there was always a check against the Stark on the Wall? Have we discussed that it may have been the Night's King, allied with his in-laws the Others, who unleashed the Long Night?

I think that's extremely unlikely. You can never know with so much missing/inaccurate info, but I think it's fairly certain that

1. the Wall was built after the Long Night

2. Nightfort was built no earlier than the Wall

So if it really happened at Nightfort, it had to be after the Long Night.

[hotweaselsoup]

I think that's extremely unlikely. You can never know with so much missing/inaccurate info, but I think it's fairly certain that

1. the Wall was built after the Long Night

2. Nightfort was built no earlier than the Wall

So if it really happened at Nightfort, it had to be after the Long Night.

I agree with 1., but I'm not so sure about 2. We are told that the Nightfort was the first, and largest, of the castles on the Wall. I think there is room there to speculate that it may have preceded the construction of the Wall.

I do agree, though, that it is contrary to the accepted timeline. But who better to want an endless night than someone who was said to rule it? I just want to mesh the two events - the Long Night and the Night's King - to make things neater, I suppose :)