Heresy 13

[Elaena Targaryen]

The logic of the children not building the wall - which seems well supported by the way the weirwoods block Rhlloristas elsewhere pushes me back to the embrace of Uncat's idea that the White Walkers built the Wall as an estate boundary to keep poachers out of their game preserve. (hmm and they do drive the wildlings right up against the Wall where they can be killed off rather like a hunt or a shoot).

The other alternative is that the giants were involved and the giants were the bane of the Children - but then the last of the giants song suggests that the Wall was destructive of their way of life. Beyond that we get into speculation: were the giants ensorcelled or tricked hence the captive giant breaking free as Umber sigil, if they built it is that why the horn of Joramon is so dangerous because they can destroy it too?

A mildly solidly crazy thought because I need to go and take a nap: we've suggested that maybe the wall was constructed on top of or linking groves of weirwoods, using their magic as part of the construction, what if the wall was instead constructed on and around the bodies of giants, if they were physically built in to the bulk of the wall at ground level (kindof like the westeros version of a concrete overcoat), if those frozen giants were woken the Wall would crack and break as they stretched and yawned?

ETA and where are my manners? WELCOME MUSIC LOVING CHEMIST :thumbsup:

I was excited to see you include the giants because I have searched through the books for all things giant recently. :)

Old Nan always says ( paraphrasing ) monsters live north of the Wall giants and ghouls, ( and adding sometimes ) shadows and walking dead but giants and ghouls are what she warns of. Also when Old Nan says as long as the NW stays true they can not pass the Wall, they being what was previously mentioned. Osh'a brother has even killed a giant. And we know the children say that giants are their brothers and their bane.

There are many stories of someone fighting giants, a few stories of the NW, wildlings and even in Essos, and stories of evil giants. Littlefinger says there are tales that Winterfell has had giants heads on it's walls, even though the tales say giants helped raise WF. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield of the Kingsguard saved Princess Daeryssa from the giants. There is also the tale about a man kept by evil giants in their castle only to escape and be killed by the Others.

A few random points of interest; The big horn that Mance found in a giants grave, and he claimed it to be the Horn of Winter, Tormund said it was one thousand years old. ( there is that number again ) There are giant animals like giant elk from the time of the First Men and Coldhands, giant bats in Harrenhal, giant krakens, giant turtles that are gods, monsterous snowbears, but the important one giant ice spiders - they are always called giant ice spiders.

A few things I'm contemplating;

• The song "The Last of the Giants", did not need to be composed by the giants and it could have been the wildlings.
  
• Could Moat Cailin have been a castle of the giants?
  
• Why have we not seen a giant wight?
  
• Do the giants hibernate? ( from Tormund's story )
  
• The importance of the Horn of Winter and the fact that it wakes the sleeping giants
  

I don't really see anything of great import but maybe someone else can.

[Lummel]

Heretics!

Black Crow asked me to keep an eye on the post numbers and set up the next Heresy thread when we got close to the 400. So seeing the post creep up past 380 and feeling mortal fear that some poor heretic might have nowhere to post their heresies overnight I have opened up Heresy 14 for our enjoyment and posting pleasure.

Happy hereticing everybody!

[Lummel]

A few random points of interest; The big horn that Mance found in a giants grave, and he claimed it to be the Horn of Winter, Tormund said it was one thousand years old. ( there is that number again ) There are giant animals like giant elk from the time of the First Men and Coldhands, giant bats in Harrenhal, giant krakens, giant turtles that are gods, monsterous snowbears, but the important one giant ice spiders - they are always called giant ice spiders.

A few things I'm contemplating;

• 
  
• The song "The Last of the Giants", did not need to be composed by the giants and it could have been the wildlings.
  
• Could Moat Cailin have been a castle of the giants?
  
• Why have we not seen a giant wight?
  
• Do the giants hibernate? ( from Tormund's story )
  
• The importance of the Horn of Winter and the fact that it wakes the sleeping giants...
  

The giants are vegetarian so unless they store food like squirrels it would make sense for them to hibernate, but then I can't imagine anything like the giants Jon sees building or dwelling in a castle, but it's easy to imagine them terrorising the countryside eating up stocks of carrots.

I always assumed that giant ice spiders are just big enough for white walkers to ride on :dunno:

[Elaena Targaryen]

Here is quotes about Vaes Tolorro the city of bones but I'm afraid it's not much but it does sound like it could be sun damaged in over exposure from a "long summer" however there was faded scars of fire so was this from the sun or dragonfire?

Here is one comment about the bones, but seeing how they named it the city of bones there may have been more, and it's strange they were unburied

Here is the quote for the dragon bones

Here is a link to the HBO map but in this map the dragon's location seems insignificant.

I just read a quote from ADWD in another thread that reminded me of this post and the HBO map. From the map it looks like the Red Waste, where Vaes Tolorro and the dragon bones are, could have been outposts or farm land of the Old Empire of Ghis and might have been destroyed by the war, by Ghis or Valyria and their dragons. Though the quote does say "along the coast" it was a long time ago and other important areas could have been forgotten and the dragon could have died in battle. Could these battles and enviroment changes caused a long summer?

Dany’s thoughts: “The cedars that had once grown tall along the coast grew no more, felled by the axes of the Old Empire or consumed by dragonfire when Ghis made war against Valyria. Once the trees had gone, the soil baked beneath the hot sun and blew away in thick red clouds. “It was these calamities that transformed my people into slavers,” Galazza Galare had told her, at the Temple of the Graces. And I am the calamity that will change these slavers back into people, Dany had sworn to herself.”

[hotweaselsoup]

I was excited to see you include the giants because I have searched through the books for all things giant recently. :)

Old Nan always says ( paraphrasing ) monsters live north of the Wall giants and ghouls, ( and adding sometimes ) shadows and walking dead but giants and ghouls are what she warns of. Also when Old Nan says as long as the NW stays true they can not pass the Wall, they being what was previously mentioned. Osh'a brother has even killed a giant. And we know the children say that giants are their brothers and their bane.

There are many stories of someone fighting giants, a few stories of the NW, wildlings and even in Essos, and stories of evil giants. Littlefinger says there are tales that Winterfell has had giants heads on it's walls, even though the tales say giants helped raise WF. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield of the Kingsguard saved Princess Daeryssa from the giants. There is also the tale about a man kept by evil giants in their castle only to escape and be killed by the Others.

A few random points of interest; The big horn that Mance found in a giants grave, and he claimed it to be the Horn of Winter, Tormund said it was one thousand years old. ( there is that number again ) There are giant animals like giant elk from the time of the First Men and Coldhands, giant bats in Harrenhal, giant krakens, giant turtles that are gods, monsterous snowbears, but the important one giant ice spiders - they are always called giant ice spiders.

A few things I'm contemplating;

• The song "The Last of the Giants", did not need to be composed by the giants and it could have been the wildlings.
  
• Could Moat Cailin have been a castle of the giants?
  
• Why have we not seen a giant wight?
  
• Do the giants hibernate? ( from Tormund's story )
  
• The importance of the Horn of Winter and the fact that it wakes the sleeping giants
  

I don't really see anything of great import but maybe someone else can.

Thanks for the recap of the giantlore, Eleana! Like you, the giants intrigue me mightily!

I know that we've speculated that Joramun was a giant, based on the fact that Mance was searching the giants' graves for Joramun horn/Horn of Winter. We've also been told that Joramun was the King-Beyond-the-Wall that helped the Stark in Winterfell defeat the Night's King. This actually ties in somewhat with my crackpot theory that the Night's King was responsible for the Long Night. If the Last Hero=Bran the Builder=The Stark in Winterfell, and Joramun=Giant, then would it not make sense that Bran the Builder, allied with the Giants, defeated the Night's King to end the Long Night, then raised the Wall together -- as we've been told -- in an attempt to prevent the calamity from ever occurring again? Moreover, if this great battle against the Night's King happened during the Long Night (and brought about its end, so it would be the Battle for the Dawn), it would make sense that these first troops under Bran the Builder would wear full black camouflage. And then after, at battle's end, the Night's Watch itself was formalized, complete with stirring oath against seeking personal glory, wives, lands, and crowns (all of which seem to have driven the Night's King), and their mission to keep watch against the Night's return.

I dunno, it's all just spitballing of course. But some of the pieces seem to fit.

The Horn of Winter is just a complete mystery to me. If Joramun was the giant who helped Bran the Builder raise the Wall, then why would he be given the ability to bring the Wall down? Unless it was a fail-safe device - an "in case of emergency, break Wall" type thing??

[Uncat]

Maybe it's because Jon doesn't belong there - not because he is a bastard, but because he has sworn himself to the Night's Watch? And if he returned to try to claim a place with the Kings of Winter, he would be deserting his post?

I will break in, just for a moment. :blush:

In part I agree with hotweselsoup. Jon has nothing to do with Winterfell, no matter what his surname is. It's almost as if the old Stark kings warned him not to take Stannis' offer.

Also, I think that if R+L=J, then they may not want him because he's a Targaryen. The Starks and the Targs seem to stand at the opposite sides. If Jon's father is really Rhaegar, Jon has two Targ grandparents, which would make him 50% Targ. What about his Stark blood? Unless Rickard married a cousin, it's "only" 25%. If you look at it like that, Jon has more "enemy" blood, than the Stark blood. No wonder they had tried to shut him out.

But Rickard married a Flint from the moutains clan, didn't he? Or was that his mother? Anyway, the Starks don't seem to have married away much - though you are righ, that kind of inbreeding, which happened with the Targs did not seem to have happened at Winterfell.

HWS, thanks for the change of perspective. That would be a very reasonable explanation, too. It is him that sewered his line to Winterfell by taking the oath.

And that would also explain, why it is that the KoW try to send him away: They were overthrown and the oath which Jon swore was that of those who were once the enimies coming up from the South.

And that would also explaing the gnarling and frowning in Lord Eddards direction. I always wondered about that. After all, in our perception who would be more Starky then The Ned. To us, the readers he is presented ad the Stark of Starks so why would they not give him a heartly, warm welcome

Ned is heir to that man who once went up against his Brother and the heritage of the Kings of Winter. But he still is a Stark Lord and in parts is keeping the old traditions. So The Ned just gets a stare and a gnarl, while that useless bastard son of his has completly changed side and for that he is not wanted any longer.

[Uncat]

That was the bone reference, that was sticking to my memory. It is funny.

That white paint they used would be quite a seller. Hundreds of years of desert sun and sandstorms and it still did not wear of. If the city had been burned down, it would have had a much different look. But if it just head been plundered with the odd fire here and there, it may look just like that.

But the dragon seems to be unconnected. Was it just placed there, to remind us that once dragons roamed freely?

Why would Viserion hiss, while she thinks about that missing statue? It is as if he knows something and tryies to tell her. Well at least at Lassie or Flipper it would have been that way :D

But no new ideas. A completly white city in a a Red Waste....

[Uncat]

So now you are starting to discuss another of my pet topics, the giants? Now that I really have to get some work to get done? :( :( :(

[lojzelote]

But Rickard married a Flint from the moutains clan, didn't he? Or was that his mother? Anyway, the Starks don't seem to have married away much - though you are righ, that kind of inbreeding, which happened with the Targs did not seem to have happened at Winterfell.

HWS, thanks for the change of perspective. That would be a very reasonable explanation, too. It is him that sewered his line to Winterfell by taking the oath.

And that would also explain, why it is that the KoW try to send him away: They were overthrown and the oath which Jon swore was that of those who were once the enimies coming up from the South.

And that would also explaing the gnarling and frowning in Lord Eddards direction. I always wondered about that. After all, in our perception who would be more Starky then The Ned. To us, the readers he is presented ad the Stark of Starks so why would they not give him a heartly, warm welcome

Ned is heir to that man who once went up against his Brother and the heritage of the Kings of Winter. But he still is a Stark Lord and in parts is keeping the old traditions. So The Ned just gets a stare and a gnarl, while that useless bastard son of his has completly changed side and for that he is not wanted any longer.

No, the one who had married the Flint lady was Ned's maternal grandfather. Some speculate that Rickard married a Skagosi, because Rickon and Osha went to hide there. At this point it's just a speculation though. You can see the official family tree here: http://awoiaf.wester...hp/Eddard_Stark (you have to roll down).

For that matter, I wonder how much the Skagosi intermarry with the mainland. So far, they have been portrayed as pretty isolated community. They probably have more undiluted First Men blood in their veins. Although, the Northern families seems to keep to themselves, so they probably aren't much worse off. After the thousands of years, they must be all terribly interbred. :ack:

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I truly think the Stark Kings don't want Jon because of his Targaryen ancestry (according to one theory, Rhaegar and Lyanna married polygamously, so Jon woudn't be a bastard, although it's well possible that the Stark Kings would frown upon a polygamous union).

Arya lives through similar experience in the Red Keep among the skulls of the Targaryen dragons:

"It's dead," she said aloud. "It's just a skull, it can't hurt me." Yet somehow the monster seemed to know she was there. She could feel its empty eyes watching her through the gloom, and there was something in that dim, cavernous room that did not love her. She edged away from the skull and backed into a second, larger than the first. For an instant she could feel its teeth digging into her shoulder, as if it wanted a bite of her flesh.

Then she runs away.

Bran:

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snaked (= a dragon?) whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars.

I know this is probably just a metaphor for the fire (not a fan of the dragon-was-hibernating-under-Winterfell theory here), but I think it was an interesting choice of words on GRRM's part. Foreshadowing? Note that Summer bares his teeth. The direwolves snarl at their enemies.

Also, I don't have A Mystery Knight at hand, but doesn't Daemon II Blackfyre say something about big bad wolves hiding in the woods in the North? I doubt he was speaking about the Starks, but I think his remark is worth attention, too.

This makes me feel that the Targs and the Starks don't (and won't) exactly love each other. If R+L=J, then Jon is in quite an unfortunate position if you ask me.

As for Ned's "starkishness", I don't agree he's the starkest of the Starks. I'm too lazy to find the quotes myself (see ARYa_Nym's post bellow), but the Starks of old remind me of the Celts. We have to consider that our to a fault honorable Ned spent his youth with Jon "As High As Honor" Arryn in the Vale, not with his father and siblings in the North. He seems to be a weakly individual in comparison with his handsome, "wolf-blooded" older brother Brandon, who was also the swordsman of the family.

Because I'm totally shameless, I will use this post by ARYa_Nym: http://asoiaf.wester...50#entry3299650 (the post number 154 in the discussion Why is Sansa so helpless all the time).

[Uncat]

Great post, thank you.

Coming from the end: I don't think Eddard was the Starkes of Starks. I was just refering to the overall impression of him which one gets in the first chapters of AGOT (i.e. by the time, the snarling occurs): Such a great and just and honorable man deeply rooted within his family and the north.

The bit about Arya is realy interesting. I never realy noticed it. I mean, I got the atmosphere but not the messege and certainly not the parallels. Thanks for that. And yes, from this point of view Summer snarling at a something, that looks like a serpent of fire makes sense.

I like this specialy because I increasingly becoming a fan of the idea of parallels and antagonism between the family of the Wolf, the legendary predator of Winter and the family of the Dragon, the legendary predator of fire (and summer)

[nanother]

I agree that Ned must be a weakling by KoW standards. There's a scene when he takes Robert to the crypts and observes that some of the KoW's swords have rusted and goes on hoping that their spirits aren't roaming the castle now because they were hard men for hard times. Or something like that.

Edit: also, I get the impression that KoW and KiN are used somewhat interchangeably. Not saying there wasn't a distinction at some point, clearly there was a transition over the time (either sudden or gradual) but by now it's nature is obscure for most or all characters. Seems that the KiN is more of an Andal thing, but then when Robb is proclaimed KiN it's by a Northerner...

Edit 2: also interesting that it was the "Stark of Winterfell" who moved against the Night's King in Old Nan's tale, rather than the "King of Winter" - that somewhat supports the theories that put the KoW's seat into Nightfort

[Lummel]

...Coming from the end: I don't think Eddard was the Starkes of Starks. I was just refering to the overall impression of him which one gets in the first chapters of AGOT (i.e. by the time, the snarling occurs): Such a great and just and honorable man deeply rooted within his family and the north...

well that's all part of the construction isn't it that we're set up to believe in the Starks as super honourable and super good and to ignore any hints to the contrary, but looking again The Ned is bound to be suspicious of the wolf blood aspects of the heritage because it led to the deaths of his sister, father and brother and numerous stark retainers in the rebellion.

[Uncat]

@nanother

Yes, the true meaning of being King of Winter is lost. For those in the books the KoW is just an ancient title and part of what makes them fear and love their Starks.

I think we actually see one of the distictiv elements in the scene, when Robb is acclaimed as King in the North. He is given his a kingship by his Lords, because they want one man to lead them. This kingship rest on their will to bend their knee (or on the will of the majority of the Lords to bend or break the knees of the minority who would not swear their swords to the king). Here no greater power comes in, the King in the North is made by his men and from their support and their swords he draws his power.

But how do you become the man to rule the reign of Winter with everything and everyone in it? An how do you exercise your power in the Winters of the North. Because this is what people would expect from a King of Winter: to be able to reach out into the farthest points of his realm at anytime and especially during his own season. For this, he would need to draw from agreater power then the swords of the Lords in his kingdom.

And there again we have a parallel between house Stark and house Targ: The power to rule the seven Kingdoms was initialy drawn from their dragons. But those dragons died out and the Targs need to shift their powerbase: from a more absolutistic kind of regime to a kingship resting on the shoulders of men. But That did not happen which allowed the raise and powerstruggle of the great houses. I even suppose, that this shift was the reform which Rheagar had in mind. A new kind of kingship not resting on the wings and fire of long lost dragons but on the swords of the great houses.

It is true, that the Targs regime always had such acclamatory elements (wise political move by the Conqueror). But they were few and rather symbolic. In it self it was an absolute kingship which did not depend on man but on the power and magic of Fire and Blood.

[Uncat]

Oh, and If it is true, that the books are really about Starks and Targs, you know what this makes the red Lion of Lannister? A big fat red herring veiling the smell of Dragons :D

[alienarea]

Oh, and If it is true, that the books are really about Starks and Targs, you know what this makes the red Lion of Lannister? A big fat red herring veiling the smell of Dragons :D

In other words: dead meat

[Clueless Northman]

And there again we have a parallel between house Stark and house Targ: The power to rule the seven Kingdoms was initialy drawn from their dragons. But those dragons died out and the Targs need to shift their powerbase: from a more absolutistic kind of regime to a kingship resting on the shoulders of men.

Reading this, I have the feeling that it's very probable that the Kings of Winter had actual direwolves, and used them in war - warging them to keep their subjects in line, maybe. Whether this stopped with the Wall or went on for some time until they were merely Kings in the North in more recent times, I have no idea.

This makes me feel that the Targs and the Starks don't (and won't) exactly love each other. If R+L=J, then Jon is in quite an unfortunate position if you ask me.

I'm not sure it's unfortunate.

Things look a bit like Ice and Fire will rip apart most of the world, Westeros entirely, at the very least. Could it be that Jon would be the one to bring equilibrium between those opposed forces, ending their feud? Of course, a truce if not a peace bought at a great cost, including personal cost.

[Uncat]

Reading this, I have the feeling that it's very probable that the Kings of Winter had actual direwolves, and used them in war - warging them to keep their subjects in line, maybe. Whether this stopped with the Wall or went on for some time until they were merely Kings in the North in more recent times, I have no idea.

I'm not sure it's unfortunate.

Things look a bit like Ice and Fire will rip apart most of the world, Westeros entirely, at the very least. Could it be that Jon would be the one to bring equilibrium between those opposed forces, ending their feud? Of course, a truce if not a peace bought at a great cost, including personal cost.

Seems as if we are on a parallel trajectory. Il copy the quote to Heresy 14 and reply there.

[ARYa_Nym]

I agree that Ned must be a weakling by KoW standards. There's a scene when he takes Robert to the crypts and observes that some of the KoW's swords have rusted and goes on hoping that their spirits aren't roaming the castle now because they were hard men for hard times. Or something like that.

There's also this quote about the KiN:

The Starks of old were Kings in the North once. They were harsh rulers ruling a harsh land, they were as cruel and unforgiving as winter.

Arya lives through similar experience in the Red Keep among the skulls of the Targaryen dragons:

Then she runs away.

Because I'm totally shameless, I will use this post by ARYa_Nym: http://asoiaf.wester...50#entry3299650 (the post number 154 in the discussion Why is Sansa so helpless all the time).

LOL, it's fine. I link other posts too sometimes.

I thought that was curious about Arya. In the next book which I'm certain was foreshadowing since the Titan of Braavos was mentioned. Arya wishes to see dragons so I'm anxious to see what will happen when she does.

"If I had wings...I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and seamonsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to."

& about direwolves and dragons I've wondered in the back of mind like say Jon gets one. Would the dragon try to eat Ghost?

[lojzelote]

Uncat,

I'm sorry, I must have misread the part of your post about Ned. :)

Clueless Nortman,

I'm not sure about Dany vs. the Stark children at all. I mean, I don't see any reason for it (it's true that Dany accepted the Fire and Blood stance at the end of ADwD, but I still can't see her blaming seven-year-old Rickon for what Ned had done, even if the rebellion wasn't justified), however, I think it has been heavily foreshadowed nonetheless. How will they get into a conflict, I don't have a clue, and therefore I'm not able to say at what cost the peace would come. It also depends at what point Jon would learn of his real parentage. :dunno:

Another thing, I've read a thought-provoking discussion in Book Five and Hindsight, which I didn't parttake in, but it made me think . . . The Lost Lord, jjames36 and Errant Bard (and others) led a debate about the character arcs of Jon, Dany and Tyrion, and how will their newly gained experience influence their way of thinking and future actions. Not much good will come out of it, it seems to me. Among other things, they tried to sort out who are the main heroes. One of them tried to add Jaime into the mix, and with Jaime there was almost as much non-Stark main characters (Tyrion, Dany, Jaime) as the Stak ones (Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran). I don't quite agree that Jaime belongs among the main characters, but I had an awful "revelation": what if it is Tyrion, Dany, Jon vs. Sansa, Arya, Bran? :bawl: (Just to make it clear, they didn't speculate about the Starks and non-Starks fighting each other.) Apparently, Jon isn't a Stark . . .

ARYa_Nym,

I was afraid you will sue me. :)

Those Arya's thoughts baffle me, too. I'm not sure how much to make of them. For example,Tyrion is absoluty fascinated by the dragons, and when he was a boy, he wished to be revealed as a lost Targaryen princeling. I don't think his dreams will come true, though. He will probably get to see the dragons and probably train them, but ride one of them? (Begone, you horrible Tyrion-is-a-Targ theory, begone! :stillsick: ) I don't think Arya will be bothered by the dragons as the animals, but I'm not sure what she will think of Dany. (My god, I hope that Dany won't talk about the Usurper's dogs before her.)

Um, sorry for the departure from the heretic discussion.

[richard_ba]

I know this has been past dead, but in the introduction post, there is a statement of a connection between Starks and The Others, and it is hinted that The Nigh's King married a beautiful woman with pale skin, whiter hair and eyes so blue they appeared to be not frozen, but engulfed into flames (purple eyes), it is also hinted that the Night's King had children and while in the series is not clear who killed the NK (his brother or his son), after his slaughter his offspring went on exile. So, the thing is this happened circa 8,000bAL (years before Aegon's Landing) and rise of Valyrian Freehold took place circa 5,000bAL, so the heresy is that Targaryens are actually Starks and The Others descendants, fulfilling A Song of Ice and Fire. This may explain both Jon and Danny properties around Ice and Fire, Dragons and Wights, Warging (a characteristic belonging only to Children of Forrest), Valyrian Steel and The Others blades, Obsidian and Dragonsteel.