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Heresy 13


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The Weirwood of Storm´s End was its magical protection, I think. I definitely believe the First Men sought to build their holdfasts close to Weirwoods.

Re Nagga´s bones, I still rather believe they´re the remnants of a hall built of weirwood than a Weirwood grove.

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They seem to come in different widths. The White Haven weirwood is very wide and the Riverrun one narrow and slim

That she associates weirwood groves as something left behind by the children I find interesting as though they were something the children made or were responsible for and not something that just grew.

And here HBO comes in once more. The wirewood of the Godswood in Winterfell shown in the intro is shown like a fire or some othe kind of needle wood. A slender trunk in the center with branches branching away rather them your usual leafed tree with a short trunk and a hugh crown of folliage.

This given, the comparison with a ship's mast works pretty.

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I typed this all earlier and it came out to be a lot. I'm posting it with out editing anything. Anyone sees a typo just let me know. Or comment or ignore. What ever tickles you fancy:

1) On Weirwood circles, I think these formations were done by a group of greenseers that got together in times of need to make decisions and plan for the future. Possibly when the balance of Ice and Fire is tipped one way or the other.

2) Why wouldn't the Starks take their seat at the Nightfort. As Kings in the North or Kings of Winter the best way to rule the North is from the most northern point? Also, strategically, wouldn't the Wall be the best place to make your family seat? No one can attack you from the north, period. All the Starks would have had to do was fortify the south, east, and west, which is easy enough, and perch on the Wall. They could see for miles advancing forces from either side, not to mention the defending ability.

It would seem practical to make it their seat.

3) I liked some of Sword of Mid Afternoons ideas it made me think of this:

What if "Night's King" was the last LC to be in charge of the Wall, and keep the to the vows?

Here. Lets say the Andals invade, but don't take the North. Slowly, over time maybe a millennium the Andals work their way into the families of the North. The Starks are one of the last to go. The Stark in Winterfell, the Lord Stark, not the King of Winter but the Night's King, married an Andal woman. She, along with the Boltons, and a few of the other houses convince him over time that the kingship should go to him, and that he shouldn't serve under his brother. The "lords of Winter" hatch the scheme. Since the Stark on the Wall is the King of Winter and the LC of the Night's Watch that he should be taken down.

Since he keeps the old way (adhering to the New Pact, watching both sides of the Wall, etc...) propaganda of his "evil" deeds reach the ears of the "smallfolk". Everyone is talking about "Night's King". The King of Winter that's gone and married an Other, one of the creatures from the darkest nightmares.

The army that amasses is great for the time, maybe twenty thousand, but the Night's Watch has the Wall, and the Nightfort, which as we know is a huge castle three times the size of Castle Black, and the Nightfort was indeed a castle. Fortified on all sides, with brothers on the wall day and night watching the lines.

Knowing that he doesn't have enough, the Stark of Winterfell contacts the King-Beyond-the-Wall (or waits for him to attack the Wall either way it doesn't matter). Both armies attack from either side. The Wall is garrisoned, but only buy the Watchers that were there at the time of the attack. All the other brothers are in the gift, in the castle, or beyond the Wall. After a long siege the Stark in Winterfell succeeds. He shatters the Nightfort's walls and puts the brothers that continue to fight to the sword.

The Night's Watch is in ruins, however, a maester is placed on the Wall, probably one born to an Andal family. The LC position is given to the Stark of Winterfell's wife's choosing, she picks a southerner. He puts other southerners in power, and thus the Watch loses all the leadership that still remained from the battle.

Castle Black is built with the direct order to move the Watch there. It is to have no walls other than The Wall. The "Andal invasion" finally takes the farthest north they can get. Once on top the wall the Stark in Winterfell's army rains arrows on the King-Beyond-the-Walls host until it breaks against the Wall.

With so few of the "original" Night's Watch around many traditions are lost, and any attempt to save tradition is met with a traitors necklace. The Wall is "andalized" "white washed" of all magical tradition in favor of the more vanilla faith of the Seven. The vows are changed to live up to the Andal knights code. Pieces that were there for generations are taken out and pieces that never fit there before are wedged in.

The Watch is only barely what it was. With the traditions, honor, and a fresh stigma, few people choose to take the black. Instead, the King in the North resorts to sending his prisoners to the Wall instead of brave, young men looking for honor. With the lack of men coming in from the north, the Watch petitions the southern lords to send men there. When they ask why they should care, the maester draws upon legend and oral history to produce a long history of great deeds and men that have served in the Night's Watch for thousands of years. Some of the southern lords volunteer to take the black, but at the least agree to send there prisoners as an alternative to a harsher sentence.

In a generation only 1 of 20 men on the Wall were there during Night's King's rein. The old ways hushed up, lost, or forgotten, they died over time, and were lost completely. The Maester, seeing that so much history is being lost he attempts to save some by writing what he knows, and what little the other brothers know.

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I typed this all earlier and it came out to be a lot. I'm posting it with out editing anything. Anyone sees a typo just let me know. Or comment or ignore. What ever tickles you fancy:

1) On Weirwood circles, I think these formations were done by a group of greenseers that got together in times of need to make decisions and plan for the future. Possibly when the balance of Ice and Fire is tipped one way or the otheir.

2) Why wouldn't the Starks take their seat at the Nightfort. As Kings in the North or Kings of Winter the best way to rule the North is from the most northern point? Also, strategically, wouldn't the Wall be the best place to make your family seat? No one can attack you from the north, period. All the Starks would have had to do was fortify the south, east, and west, which is easy enough, and perch on the Wall. They could see for miles advancing forces from either side, not to mention the defending ability.

It would seem practical to make it their seat.

3) I liked some of Sword of Mid Afternoons ideas it made me think of this:

What if "Night's King" was the last LC to be in charge of the Wall, and keep the to the vows?

Here. Lets say the Andals invade, but don't take the North. Slowly, over time maybe a millennium the Andals work their way into the families of the North. The Starks are one of the last to go. The Stark in Winterfell, the Lord Stark, not the King of Winter but the Night's King, married an Andal woman. She, along with the Boltons, and a few of the other houses convince him over time that the kingship should go to him, and that he shouldn't serve under his brother. The "lords of Winter" hatch the scheme. Since the Stark on the Wall is the King of Winter and the LC of the Night's Watch that he should be taken down.

Since he keeps the old way (adhering to the New Pact, watching both sides of the Wall, etc...) propaganda of his "evil" deeds reach the ears of the "smallfolk". Everyone is talking about "Night's King". The King of Winter that's gone and married an Other, one of the creatures from the darkest nightmares.

The army that amasses is great for the time, maybe twenty thousand, but the Night's Watch has the Wall, and the Nightfort, which as we know is a huge castle three times the size of Castle Black, and the Nightfort was indeed a castle. Fortified on all sides, with brothers on the wall day and night watching the lines.

Knowing that he doesn't have enough, the Stark of Winterfell contacts the King-Beyond-the-Wall (or waits for him to attack the Wall either way it doesn't matter). Both armies attack from either side. The Wall is garrisoned, but only buy the Watchers that were there at the time of the attack. All the other brothers are in the gift, in the castle, or beyond the Wall. After a long siege the Stark in Winterfell succeeds. He shatters the Nightfort's walls and puts the brothers that continue to fight to the sword.

The Night's Watch is in ruins, however, a maester is placed on the Wall, probably one born to an Andal family. The LC position is given to the Stark of Winterfell's wife's choosing, she picks a southerner. He puts other southerners in power, and thus the Watch loses all the leadership that still remained from the battle.

Castle Black is built with the direct order to move the Watch there. It is to have no walls other than The Wall. The "Andal invasion" finally takes the farthest north they can get. Once on top the wall the Stark in Winterfell's army rains arrows on the King-Beyond-the-Walls host until it breaks against the Wall.

With so few of the "original" Night's Watch around many traditions are lost, and any attempt to save tradition is met with a traitors necklace. The Wall is "andalized" "white washed" of all magical tradition in favor of the more vanilla faith of the Seven. The vows are changed to live up to the Andal knights code. Pieces that were there for generations are taken out and pieces that never fit there before are wedged in.

The Watch is only barely what it was. With the traditions, honor, and a fresh stigma, few people choose to take the black. Instead, the King in the North resorts to sending his prisoners to the Wall instead of brave, young men looking for honor. With the lack of men coming in from the north, the Watch petitions the southern lords to send men there. When they ask why they should care, the maester draws upon legend and oral history to produce a long history of great deeds and men that have served in the Night's Watch for thousands of years. Some of the southern lords volunteer to take the black, but at the least agree to send there prisoners as an alternative to a harsher sentence.

In a generation only 1 of 20 men on the Wall were there during Night's King's rein. The old ways hushed up, lost, or forgotten, they died over time, and were lost completely. The Maester, seeing that so much history is being lost he attempts to save some by writing what he knows, and what little the other brothers know.

I like that very much.

It can also be an explanation for the "watcher on the walls" line in the Night Watch vow. The Night Watch in the Nightfort had more than one wall to watch.

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We see hints that Bran can communicate to people directly through weirwoods, so perhaps places like High Heart and the Isle of Faces were like the Children's (or whomever's) version of an internet group video chat.

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I typed this all earlier and it came out to be a lot. I'm posting it with out editing anything. Anyone sees a typo just let me know. Or comment or ignore. What ever tickles you fancy:

1) On Weirwood circles, I think these formations were done by a group of greenseers that got together in times of need to make decisions and plan for the future. Possibly when the balance of Ice and Fire is tipped one way or the other.

2) Why wouldn't the Starks take their seat at the Nightfort. As Kings in the North or Kings of Winter the best way to rule the North is from the most northern point? Also, strategically, wouldn't the Wall be the best place to make your family seat? No one can attack you from the north, period. All the Starks would have had to do was fortify the south, east, and west, which is easy enough, and perch on the Wall. They could see for miles advancing forces from either side, not to mention the defending ability.

It would seem practical to make it their seat.

3) I liked some of Sword of Mid Afternoons ideas it made me think of this:

What if "Night's King" was the last LC to be in charge of the Wall, and keep the to the vows?

Here. Lets say the Andals invade, but don't take the North. Slowly, over time maybe a millennium the Andals work their way into the families of the North. The Starks are one of the last to go. The Stark in Winterfell, the Lord Stark, not the King of Winter but the Night's King, married an Andal woman. She, along with the Boltons, and a few of the other houses convince him over time that the kingship should go to him, and that he shouldn't serve under his brother. The "lords of Winter" hatch the scheme. Since the Stark on the Wall is the King of Winter and the LC of the Night's Watch that he should be taken down.

Since he keeps the old way (adhering to the New Pact, watching both sides of the Wall, etc...) propaganda of his "evil" deeds reach the ears of the "smallfolk". Everyone is talking about "Night's King". The King of Winter that's gone and married an Other, one of the creatures from the darkest nightmares.

The army that amasses is great for the time, maybe twenty thousand, but the Night's Watch has the Wall, and the Nightfort, which as we know is a huge castle three times the size of Castle Black, and the Nightfort was indeed a castle. Fortified on all sides, with brothers on the wall day and night watching the lines.

Knowing that he doesn't have enough, the Stark of Winterfell contacts the King-Beyond-the-Wall (or waits for him to attack the Wall either way it doesn't matter). Both armies attack from either side. The Wall is garrisoned, but only buy the Watchers that were there at the time of the attack. All the other brothers are in the gift, in the castle, or beyond the Wall. After a long siege the Stark in Winterfell succeeds. He shatters the Nightfort's walls and puts the brothers that continue to fight to the sword.

The Night's Watch is in ruins, however, a maester is placed on the Wall, probably one born to an Andal family. The LC position is given to the Stark of Winterfell's wife's choosing, she picks a southerner. He puts other southerners in power, and thus the Watch loses all the leadership that still remained from the battle.

Castle Black is built with the direct order to move the Watch there. It is to have no walls other than The Wall. The "Andal invasion" finally takes the farthest north they can get. Once on top the wall the Stark in Winterfell's army rains arrows on the King-Beyond-the-Walls host until it breaks against the Wall.

With so few of the "original" Night's Watch around many traditions are lost, and any attempt to save tradition is met with a traitors necklace. The Wall is "andalized" "white washed" of all magical tradition in favor of the more vanilla faith of the Seven. The vows are changed to live up to the Andal knights code. Pieces that were there for generations are taken out and pieces that never fit there before are wedged in.

The Watch is only barely what it was. With the traditions, honor, and a fresh stigma, few people choose to take the black. Instead, the King in the North resorts to sending his prisoners to the Wall instead of brave, young men looking for honor. With the lack of men coming in from the north, the Watch petitions the southern lords to send men there. When they ask why they should care, the maester draws upon legend and oral history to produce a long history of great deeds and men that have served in the Night's Watch for thousands of years. Some of the southern lords volunteer to take the black, but at the least agree to send there prisoners as an alternative to a harsher sentence.

In a generation only 1 of 20 men on the Wall were there during Night's King's rein. The old ways hushed up, lost, or forgotten, they died over time, and were lost completely. The Maester, seeing that so much history is being lost he attempts to save some by writing what he knows, and what little the other brothers know.

Clearly hearsy, you definitely belong in this thread :commie:
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@Orrin Storm, that seems to make quite a lot of sense. But do you mean that LCs being KsOW (and thus Starks) was the norm back then, or just that it wasn't forbidden? If the former, and their seat was Nightfort, why bury them in winterfell (or do I remember wrong). If it's the latter, it still seems a bit odd (to move the seat of the king to Nf for one person) but might work...will have to think about it when I have a working brain, too tired now.

As for your 2) I'd think the best place to rule something from is the middle of it :unsure:

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@Orrin Storm, that seems to make quite a lot of sense. But do you mean that LCs being KsOW (and thus Starks) was the norm back then, or just that it wasn't forbidden? If the former, and their seat was Nightfort, why bury them in winterfell (or do I remember wrong). If it's the latter, it still seems a bit odd (to move the seat of the king to Nf for one person) but might work...will have to think about it when I have a working brain, too tired now.

As for your 2) I'd think the best place to rule something from is the middle of it :unsure:

What this heresy says regarding that (at least it what I think it says) is the Winterfell was always the "cadet" branch of the Starks... kind of like Dragonstone for the heir of the Seven Kingdoms or how the Heir Apparent to the British crown is the Prince of Wales, with the exception that Winterfell didn't necessarily go down a direct line, instead being held by a younger brother (or cousin or uncle or goodbrother or...) of the King of Winter at the Nightfort. Basically the Nightfort ruled all and Winterfell was on par with the great castles like the Dreadfort, Karhold (if it was around then), Deepwood Motte, Last Hearth, etc. Or it could be that the Nightfort was the main seat and Winterfell, because of the hot springs, was his "winter retreat" and maybe where his family was fostered with a relative serving as castelan. Or Winterfell could just be the ancestral seat of the Starks before the New Pact, and part of the pact was that the king would be at the nightfort, but since Winterfell was the ancestral seat, that was where he still was buried (kind of like how I feel that if they weren't burned upon death, the Targ's probably would have been sent back to Dragonstone for burial).

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EDIT: :agree: You completely got where I was coming from. Great heretics must think alike. :cool4:

Thanks for the vote of confidence on my heresy. :laugh:

@alienarea: I'd looked into the vow before, and never believed that it all came from the First Men. It makes a lot more sense if the vow has been toyed with over the centeries. Before I came to this board or the heresies I tried picking the vow apart for what I thought about it.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

This whole first portion seemed to ring hollow to me for some reason. If you put the changing of the vow into the context that this "version" is the andal version, then you understand why "I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children" is so important. If Night's King had an heir he or she would have been a rallying point. Plus, first men don't regularly take vows of celibacy.

"I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post": the bit about crowns never seems to make sense. Sure, the Night's Watch used to be honorable, men would volunteer for funzies at a chance to be a black brother. But why would a king taking the black? Why is a crow looking for a crown? The Night's Watch is also to win no glory. Everything is for the Watch, but stories of brave men going to the wall last. You have modern day legends like the Half-Hand, Benjen, etc... There is glory to be had, but at the time this change would have been added the Night's Watch would have been a dark place under new management. Any brother that yielded or survived the NIght's King battle would have been encouraged to keep a low profile and not draw attention, or any renown.

@nanother: I think that Night's King was quite possibly the King of Winter. This wasn't my original thought, but a few heretics have made good arguments for it. KoW was the official title, and NK was the title the lord of Winterfell (Stark in Winterfell) gave him to rally the North against him. If the Night's King was brother to the Stark in Winterfell then you have a set up like this. When the next Generation of Starks are born, the eldest or the one that is chosen as heir takes their seat at the Nightfort. King Stark: King of Winter, of the North, the Wall, and the lands Beyond-the-Wall. Protector of the Pact. Lord Commander of the brothers of the Night's Watch. blah blah blah (what ever his styles would have been). His brother or heir is given Winterfell has High Lord of Winterfell and the North. All the houses pledge fealty to the Nightfort, but they report first to Winterfell due to its central location, plus the Kings of Winter would have much to do on either side of the Wall. When the King of Winter dies, his heir sees him buried in Winterfell, then takes the road North as the new King of Winter. The Nightfort was just a larger castle that was closer to both lands the Starks would have patrolled.

Once again not edited, but this time for laziness not lack of time. :drunk:

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@Orrin Storm no prob, always willing to assist.

Now on a side note, just came across a little something in ACOK that I think lends credence to the theory that the Fist is a Sidhe place, not a place of the First Men:

"But when they reached the ringfort, Ghost balked again. he padded forward warily to sniff at the gap in the stones, and then retreated, as if he did not like what he smelled." (ACOK, Jon 4)

Basically, Ghost senses something about the Fist that he doesn't like, and I'd say the heresy that the Fist is a holy place of the Sidhe fits in perfectly there.

EDIT: spelling

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@Uncat, yes but it doesn´t grow straight up. It backs up Edeltraud I Aspen analogy, though. Now I get to say it too, suckers!

Hi Lycos, seem to have missed that, too (or not paid attantion to it. The thread maybe moved to fast for me again. Please help with the Aspen analogy.

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What this heresy says regarding that (at least it what I think it says) is the Winterfell was always the "cadet" branch of the Starks... kind of like Dragonstone for the heir of the Seven Kingdoms or how the Heir Apparent to the British crown is the Prince of Wales, with the exception that Winterfell didn't necessarily go down a direct line, instead being held by a younger brother (or cousin or uncle or goodbrother or...) of the King of Winter at the Nightfort. Basically the Nightfort ruled all and Winterfell was on par with the great castles like the Dreadfort, Karhold (if it was around then), Deepwood Motte, Last Hearth, etc. Or it could be that the Nightfort was the main seat and Winterfell, because of the hot springs, was his "winter retreat" and maybe where his family was fostered with a relative serving as castelan. Or Winterfell could just be the ancestral seat of the Starks before the New Pact, and part of the pact was that the king would be at the nightfort, but since Winterfell was the ancestral seat, that was where he still was buried (kind of like how I feel that if they weren't burned upon death, the Targ's probably would have been sent back to Dragonstone for burial).

Yepp, just the way, I see it, too: WF is the place, where the family is rooted, while the NF (back then most certainly the Winterfort) was the place, they ruled from. We have yet another example for this in the books: The Gates of the Moon were always the family seat of House Arryn, while the Eiry became the place, they ruled from. So the Lords seat was the Eiry, while the youngrr brother held the Gates in his place.

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Yepp, just the way, I see it, too: WF is the place, where the family is rooted, while the NF (back then most certainly the Winterfort) was the place, they ruled from. We have yet another example for this in the books: The Gates of the Moon were always the family seat of House Arryn, while the Eiry became the place, they ruled from. So the Lords seat was the Eiry, while the youngrr brother held the Gates in his place.

Following this line of thought it makes sense that Jon Snow is the son of Eddard Stark and Wylla. Wylla being wildling/other. Her name seems to be in line with Dalla and Val, and why would Manderley name one of his daughters Wylla?

The Others want to restore the pact and drive the Andals away from Westeros. Jon Snow will lead them and face Daenerys in battle.

Bran will become a tree and narrate the things we don't have POVs for - the battle for Winterfell for example.

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Edric Dayne claimed to be Jon's milkbrother because Wylla was also his wetnurse. Can't see the Dayne's down in Dorne taking on a wildling as a wetnurse.

If for example Val were dressed in Dornish clothes, would you identify her as a wildling?

1) The Manderleys are hardcore Stark supporters, if Wylla is a common name they wouldn't use it for their daughter.

2) Sam is about to place Gilly with his family. So why wouldn't the Daynes accept Wylla?

3) Jon's understanding of the wildlings makes much more sense this way.

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If for example Val were dressed in Dornish clothes, would you identify her as a wildling?

1) The Manderleys are hardcore Stark supporters, if Wylla is a common name they wouldn't use it for their daughter.

2) Sam is about to place Gilly with his family. So why wouldn't the Daynes accept Wylla?

3) Jon's understanding of the wildlings makes much more sense this way.

To elaborate a little more:

We have speculated that the Boltons are a cadet branch of House Stark. IIRC the reasoning was that they emulate the skinchanging ability of the Starks by flaying, that they are fighting against the Stark's since a thousand years [which parallel's the Night's King timeline - I'll get back to that], but the Starks have never extinguished them. Since the Starks are not afraid of harsh measures the most valid reason for this mercy would be that the Boltons are kin because kinslaying is utterly despised in the north. And he have another cadet branch in the north, the Karstarks.

Getting back to the Night's King ruling from the Nightfort as Orrin Storm posted. The only other castle that is named -fort is the Dreadfort. Mayhaps the Stark who opposed the Night's King was named the Bold Stark which lead to Bolton by his Andal supporters and the Dreaded Stark by the Night's Kings supporters [ok, it's a stretch]. And because of kinslaying he was banned from Winterfell, the ancient seat of house Stark, and built the Dreadfort as seat of house Bolton.

Cue forward. The Others prepare to make a return. For reasons unknown they need a descendant of House Stark to be involved. We know how smitten Roose was with the Miller's young wife who had the features of an Other and is Ramsay's mother. I suspect Wylla is the same. Wouldn't it make much more sense for the honorable Ned to be smitten like Roose and forget his honor? Why do we need to hear this story from Roose? Does it surprise us that Roose goes astray?

So for Jon to be Ned's son with Wylla, a wildling/other woman, we have an explanation in another backstory, which could also explain why Ned doesn't want to talk about Jon's mother: He can't explain to himself why he fell for Wylla.

For Wylla being with the Dayne household we have an explanation in the Sam/Gilly story. Basically Jon's backstory has been spilled out with other characters, if for example he were to healed by Morna Wood Witch and she spills it out (maybe talking to herself while he's comatose) it would be easier to follow than a sudden R+L=J revelation by ?

It also gives a deeper meaning to Jon vs. Ramsay, for it mirrors Daenerys vs. Aegon if Aegon is real.

I'll also quote myself from another thread about Benjen's role in all of this:

A little crackpot:

Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the war. He is about 12 years old then and we can expect him to get training-on-the-job like Bran when he was the Stark in Winterfell when Rob was fighting.

Cue forward: Benjen takes the black to years after the war, becomes the first ranger and goes missing.

Now for the crackpot part: While being the Stark in Winterfell, Benjen was contacted by Bloodraven. And learned about some future task. He takes the black after tasting life (presumably including women) for two years after the war, hence his comment to Jon in AGoT. I suspect that Benjen is the one who put the direwolf and the pups south of the wall and his trip to Winterfell was a cover up for this. He too conveniently disappears as soon as Jon reaches the wall. And who would be a better choice to get a direwolf with pups across the wall unnoticed than the First Ranger of the Night Watch?

How did he get the Direwolf across the wall unnoticed? I speculate he either used the black gate, possibly guided/helped by Bloodraven, or he found the tunnels of Gorne (sp?) while ranging, possibly guided by Bloodraven as well. If he used the tunnels he could be the Hooded Man, because there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell and hd held that job before.

Of course he could be dead and his body hasn't been found, but I suspect Benjen still has to do something. He could be the POV exploring the Land of Always Winter.

I know it has been argued that Benjen would never break his Night Watch vow, but he could be trapped between that one and other vows/rules to the CotF or the Old Gods. And he possibly knows from Bloodraven that the Night Watch is doomed anyway.

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