Heresy 13

[Budj]

Anyone else find it peculiar that the WW essentially hung back and cattle-prodded the wildlings to the wall....? They could have massacred them a lot harder.

Part of me thinks that Jon is BR's champion...Bran his replacement...and the WW are an acting threat in a big scheme to set Jon up with power. By prodding them to the wall with fear of death it was a perfect opportunity for Jon to acquire thousands of loyalists....and with the way Aegon stole Dany's thunder and how she will now be essentially bringing Essos to Westeros (as well as dragons that she may or may not control) I just wonder if the whole point is to unite Westeros (First Men, Andals, mystical creatures related to old gods) against Essos / Dragons.

Feel free to dissect this...agree with portions...all of it...disagree with all of it. I'm not attached to the whole thing. Mainly a motivation for the first part and possible explanations for this.

[bloodymime]

Are the children blocked by the Wall?

[Lummel]

Don't know. Bloodraven and Bran's weirvision doesn't seem to be affected by it and Leaf (? was she really called leaf?) went south, but of course she could have gone round the Wall rather than through the Black Gate or similar unknown gateway (or over for that matter).

[Koekfabriek]

Are the children blocked by the Wall?

Would be kinda strange because they where the ones who helped to build it (IIRC)

[Quentyn the Blazed]

Are the children blocked by the Wall?

I wouldnt be surprised if the children have secret tunnels that pass underneath the wall and come out on the other side. When Hodor is exploring the caves they seem to keep going down, and even Leaf says most of the tunnels are long forgotten.

And when Jon and Ygritte are getting it on in those other tunnels, Ygritte talks about how there could be a passage under the wall down in the tunnels.

Cotf definitely have their own ways of travelling throughout the wierwood friendly lands...could connect to the isle of faces even....Jojen mentions how he needs to go to Isle of faces, would be interesting if he goes completely underground...though food would be an issue

[bloodymime]

Don't know. Bloodraven and Bran's weirvision doesn't seem to be affected by it and Leaf (? was she really called leaf?) went south, but of course she could have gone round the Wall rather than through the Black Gate or similar unknown gateway (or over for that matter).

I wonder what the difference is between Bran being able to warg into the tree at Winterfell and Jon not being able to sense Ghost when they're separated by the Wall.

I hate spelling separated.

[Clueless Northman]

About Bael the Bard, going to Winterfell to sire a bastard for the then-dying Stark line, anyone else wonders if this wasn't actually a rescue mission, by a King-beyond-the-Wall that had far more knowledge of ancient lore than the recent Starks, and knew that there was a key reason to keep a Stark living in Winterfell, lest bad things happen?

Possibly with a Stark lord that was over-protective of her daughter and was waiting for years for the "right suitor", forcing her to stay virgin, without producing a heir for the house. And with Bael being from some loose cousin branch of the Starks, like others major figures of the Wall and beyond were suspected to have been.

[Uncat]

Just a thing that poped up in my head on another thread and I wanted to throw it in here, too:

The RED Waste? Is it there onthr way to Assay to tell us something about the R'holloristas?

And thinking about it: Its a huge wasteland with a civilazation in ruins in it (the City of Bones, which safes Dannys Khalasar). And then we have another huge wasteland with ruined civilzation in it, which would be Valyria and its haunted lands.

[hotweaselsoup]

Just a thing that poped up in my head on another thread and I wanted to throw it in here, too:

The RED Waste? Is it there onthr way to Assay to tell us something about the R'holloristas?

And thinking about it: Its a huge wasteland with a civilazation in ruins in it (the City of Bones, which safes Dannys Khalasar). And then we have another huge wasteland with ruined civilzation in it, which would be Valyria and its haunted lands.

Maybe the Red Waste arose at the time of the Long Night? Long Night on one side of the planet, Long Day on the other? The buildings in the dead cities are described as completely white - maybe the way things are bleached white by constant exposure to the sun?

[Uncat]

I wonder what the difference is between Bran being able to warg into the tree at Winterfell and Jon not being able to sense Ghost when they're separated by the Wall.

I hate spelling separated.

Yes I have been wondering about thisone, too (until I forgot about it - so thanks for making me wonder again). Well not exactly about this. I have been wondering about what kind of magic the Wall does stop and which kind it doesn't.

Ohh, in case you were wondering: no conclusions so far.

Maybe the Red Waste arose at the time of the Long Night? Long Night on one side of the planet, Long Day on the other? The buildings in the dead cities are described as completely white - maybe the way things are bleached white by constant exposure to the sun?

Ohh, niceee! What a picture: The bleeched bones of an ancient civilization cought in endless summer. Do you remeber more about the real bones? Can't really recall it but I feel like there was an fair amount of bones in the streets - more in a city slowly dying out, i mean.

I'm asking because this would mean some serious desaster instead of a great city dwindeling away.

Anyway. We had a white waste during the Long Night, when Ice had its run. If there is supposed to be a balance, a red waste created by Fire would just be the thing to expect.

[Lummel]

Didn't Daenerys also ride by the bones of a dragon in the red waste?

[Uncat]

On an completyl (well almost completely) unrelated topic. I was just rambling about the crypts of Winterfell in yet another thread, when this question struck me:

What exactly would it be that would make the Kings of Winter wanting to throw Jon out?

Yes, I know, he is a bastard and I'm sure the bastards issues played into this. But, if we accept L+R, then he a Stark by Mother which - not in legal but in genetical - terms would be as good as Stark by Father and as good a Stark as any from a legal marriage. If we opose L+... and bring forth Eddard+X, geneticaly we have the same constelation.

Jon is Stark by one side, isn't he? This makes him as much Stark as any befor him. By some theories he is even an Uberstark with both mother and father being Starks.

Sure, there is the legal issue. He is no legit Stark. But would the Old Kings of Winter care so much about legal aspects? It's only that when we readers read it, we will automaticaly assume and accept that explanation. But that hasn't to be true. After all, it is the same constelation as with the fresh little bastard in the Bael tale and that one became Lord of Winterfell and now would be one of those frowning on lil'Jon here.

But Jons seem to be more Stark than many before him. Why would the Kings of Winter grumble about that petty legal items?

What is it, that he hasn't got, that upsets the Kings of Winter? And why is it especialy the Kings of Winter? Why is it not just all the old Starks. Is it something connected to them?

Oh so many questions. Forgive, if they have asked and been aswered in this or other threads

(some possible answeres I would know: The personal issues of bastard Jon, the L+R thing which makes him a Targ by the paternal heritage line which would be the line along which we are used to think, the Kings of Winter realy giving a shit about such legalities...)

Anyway: Hit me

[Uncat]

Didn't Daenerys also ride by the bones of a dragon in the red waste?

Yes she did, an enourmous beast. It comes shortly before or after the the city of bones. I always wondered about the story GRRM had in the back of his head for the poor beast.

But the City of Bones does not seem to have been burned. Oh mind the details... are we told in which direction the dragon is laying. I.e. are we told that she passes it from head to tale when coming from the white city or maby passing it tale to head when comming from... or tale to head, when going to...?

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Not too many pages to catch up on..for being away for a day or two.

Anyone else find it peculiar that the WW essentially hung back and cattle-prodded the wildlings to the wall....? They could have massacred them a lot harder.

Part of me thinks that Jon is BR's champion...Bran his replacement...and the WW are an acting threat in a big scheme to set Jon up with power. By prodding them to the wall with fear of death it was a perfect opportunity for Jon to acquire thousands of loyalists....and with the way Aegon stole Dany's thunder and how she will now be essentially bringing Essos to Westeros (as well as dragons that she may or may not control) I just wonder if the whole point is to unite Westeros (First Men, Andals, mystical creatures related to old gods) against Essos / Dragons.

Feel free to dissect this...agree with portions...all of it...disagree with all of it. I'm not attached to the whole thing. Mainly a motivation for the first part and possible explanations for this.

I got the distinct impression that the WW were acting as if they weren't quite 'geared up' for a massive conflict. As if they were waiting for something to arrive/occur. Winter, most like.

Regarding everyone's thoughts on the Winterfell Crypts... why are the Stark/Kings of Winter crypts at Winterfell if Winterfell wasn't always the seat of power.... again I call your attention to the Tolkien parallel of Osgiliath & Minas Tirith.... even when Osgiliath was the 'capital', the crypts of the Kings - and later Stewards - of the line of Anarion were always at Minas Tirith... even when Minas Tirith was only their fortress/citadel.

[Uncat]

Would be kinda strange because they where the ones who helped to build it (IIRC)

Not so sure about that. I once argued it fiercly, but right now prefer to clinge to my pet idea that the WW build the Wall. Makes sence in many ways. Only thing troubeling me is the Weirwood door. Weirwood is closely connected to the children. But if that really were the entrapped Night's King, it would deal with this concern. To encarcerate him, the aourcerer who got to close to the Others and the old ways, in a weirwood door would just be the way tho get back at him. Almost like cutting Ned Starks head with his greatsword Ice.

[Music Loving Chemist.]

I always assumed that the WW were only 'cattle-prodding' the wildlings because they lacked a large enough number of wights to eradicate the entire wildling host at once.

If they only have a few hundred wights then it would be more beneficial for them to follow the wildlings and take/turn small numbers of them. Stragglers and scouting parties. Rather then instigating a larger clash which could cause a defeat for them.

A defeat as in, the wildlings chop the few hundred wights to pieces and burn them along with their own dead.

They also knew that they had to deal with a large party of the NW.

We know that the wildlings are at least somewhat familiar with wights, they know to burn their dead... And its been said that Mance killed about a hundred of them (Wights) So perhaps they know to set them on fire as well.

So the way I see it, it would be smarter for the WW to follow the wildlings until they reach a point where a larger clash would deal the wildlings such a blow that the WW would gain more wights then lose.

And apparently they reached such a point at Hardhome. Where the WW and their wights are suddenly much more active when facing a smaller host of wildlings.

If they 'win' in Hardhome, kill enough wildlings to prevent them from burning their dead... Then they will number in the thousands. But so far we don't have a reason to assume that they are already that numerous.

To summarize: I believe a clash between wights and living humans is only beneficial for the wights if they can eradicate all of them at once. Whcih would gain them numbers rather then losses. Which is why they did not instigate a head on collision with the wildling host.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

On an completyl (well almost completely) unrelated topic. I was just rambling about the crypts of Winterfell in yet another thread, when this question struck me:

What exactly would it be that would make the Kings of Winter wanting to throw Jon out?

Yes, I know, he is a bastard and I'm sure the bastards issues played into this. But, if we accept L+R, then he a Stark by Mother which - not in legal but in genetical - terms would be as good as Stark by Father and as good a Stark as any from a legal marriage. If we opose L+... and bring forth Eddard+X, geneticaly we have the same constelation.

Jon is Stark by one side, isn't he? This makes him as much Stark as any befor him. By some theories he is even an Uberstark with both mother and father being Starks.

Sure, there is the legal issue. He is no legit Stark. But would the Old Kings of Winter care so much about legal aspects? It's only that when we readers read it, we will automaticaly assume and accept that explanation. But that hasn't to be true. After all, it is the same constelation as with the fresh little bastard in the Bael tale and that one became Lord of Winterfell and now would be one of those frowning on lil'Jon here.

But Jons seem to be more Stark than many before him. Why would the Kings of Winter grumble about that petty legal items?

What is it, that he hasn't got, that upsets the Kings of Winter? And why is it especialy the Kings of Winter? Why is it not just all the old Starks. Is it something connected to them?

Oh so many questions. Forgive, if they have asked and been aswered in this or other threads

(some possible answeres I would know: The personal issues of bastard Jon, the L+R thing which makes him a Targ by the paternal heritage line which would be the line along which we are used to think, the Kings of Winter realy giving a shit about such legalities...)

Anyway: Hit me

Yes, I do doubt that the ancient kings are particularly concerned with the legalese regarding maternal or paternal heritage.

I had the same question not long ago... I couldn't think of any legitimate theories that leave Jon without any Stark parentage.

My conclusion was the bastardy. Bastardy is a pretty serious thing... especially amongst kings... I could see an uptight king or even an over serious king being rather offended by that. Kings of the North seem a pretty serious bunch.

Conclusion: Bastardy prejudice.

[hotweaselsoup]

(some possible answeres I would know: The personal issues of bastard Jon, the L+R thing which makes him a Targ by the paternal heritage line which would be the line along which we are used to think, the Kings of Winter realy giving a shit about such legalities...)

Anyway: Hit me

Maybe it's because Jon doesn't belong there - not because he is a bastard, but because he has sworn himself to the Night's Watch? And if he returned to try to claim a place with the Kings of Winter, he would be deserting his post?

[lojzelote]

On an completyl (well almost completely) unrelated topic. I was just rambling about the crypts of Winterfell in yet another thread, when this question struck me:

What exactly would it be that would make the Kings of Winter wanting to throw Jon out?

Yes, I know, he is a bastard and I'm sure the bastards issues played into this. But, if we accept L+R, then he a Stark by Mother which - not in legal but in genetical - terms would be as good as Stark by Father and as good a Stark as any from a legal marriage. If we opose L+... and bring forth Eddard+X, geneticaly we have the same constelation.

Jon is Stark by one side, isn't he? This makes him as much Stark as any befor him. By some theories he is even an Uberstark with both mother and father being Starks.

Sure, there is the legal issue. He is no legit Stark. But would the Old Kings of Winter care so much about legal aspects? It's only that when we readers read it, we will automaticaly assume and accept that explanation. But that hasn't to be true. After all, it is the same constelation as with the fresh little bastard in the Bael tale and that one became Lord of Winterfell and now would be one of those frowning on lil'Jon here.

But Jons seem to be more Stark than many before him. Why would the Kings of Winter grumble about that petty legal items?

What is it, that he hasn't got, that upsets the Kings of Winter? And why is it especialy the Kings of Winter? Why is it not just all the old Starks. Is it something connected to them?

Oh so many questions. Forgive, if they have asked and been aswered in this or other threads

(some possible answeres I would know: The personal issues of bastard Jon, the L+R thing which makes him a Targ by the paternal heritage line which would be the line along which we are used to think, the Kings of Winter realy giving a shit about such legalities...)

Anyway: Hit me

I will break in, just for a moment. :blush:

In part I agree with hotweselsoup. Jon has nothing to do with Winterfell, no matter what his surname is. It's almost as if the old Stark kings warned him not to take Stannis' offer.

Also, I think that if R+L=J, then they may not want him because he's a Targaryen. The Starks and the Targs seem to stand at the opposite sides. If Jon's father is really Rhaegar, Jon has two Targ grandparents, which would make him 50% Targ. What about his Stark blood? Unless Rickard married a cousin, it's "only" 25%. If you look at it like that, Jon has more "enemy" blood, than the Stark blood. No wonder they had tried to shut him out.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Here is quotes about Vaes Tolorro the city of bones but I'm afraid it's not much but it does sound like it could be sun damaged in over exposure from a "long summer" however there was faded scars of fire so was this from the sun or dragonfire?

How long the city had been deserted she could not know, but the white walls, so beautiful from afar,

were cracked and crumbling when seen up close. Inside was a maze of narrow crooked alleys. The

buildings pressed close, their facades blank, chalky, windowless.Everything was white, as if the people who lived here had known nothing of color. They rode past heaps of sun-washed rubble where houses had fallen in, and elsewhere saw the faded scars of fire. At a place where six alleys came together, Dany passed an empty marble plinth. Dothraki had visited this place before, it would seem. Perhaps even now the missing statue stood among the other stolen gods in Vaes Dothrak. She might have ridden past it a hundred times, never knowing. On her shoulder, Viserion hissed.

Here is one comment about the bones, but seeing how they named it the city of bones there may have been more, and it's strange they were unburied

Yet they found bones too, the skulls of the unburied dead, bleached and broken.

Here is the quote for the dragon bones

Rakharo was the first to return. Due south the red waste stretched on and on, he reported, until it ended on a bleak shore beside the poison water. Between here and there lay only swirling sand, wind-scoured rocks, and plants bristly with sharp thorns. He had passed the bones of a dragon, he swore, so immense that he had ridden his horse through its great black jaws. Other than that, he had seen nothing.

Here is a link to the HBO map but in this map the dragon's location seems insignificant.