Why did Benjen take the black?

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

People should re-read some of the earlier posts, the comments are getting a little repetitive.

There has been discussion that though being 3rd born is a possible reason for going to the Wall (or being not the heir) - loses some of its logic when 3/5ths of your family just died in a war

or when it doesn't seem to be a necessity for other families to do it in the North (why then would the Starks need to, Glovers didn't, Umber's didn't etc. nor Martell, Frey, Lannister or Baratheon)

The other ideas have centered around a horrible mistake, guilt in relationship to Lyanna, or protecting information somehow - this is reinforced by GRRM refusing to discuss it when ?'d at some point,

I started wondering if the memories of the wild Stark Barristan refers to could possibly be Benjen not Brandon, at least I stopped assuming that its definitely Brandon.

Furthermore our perception of the NW was from Jon's eyes (slightly starry eyes at 1st) and the honor has deteriorated, everyone else is there for a crime, to serve somehow (who knows Waymar's story) but Sam was noble and cast out, Mormont, Aemon older and different reasons, but The NW is currently not something comparable to desiring to become a Kingsguard night. The lordly NW's are few and far between, even w/ the high attrition rate it doesn't seem to be the refuge for non-heir nobility that many posters have suggested.

Would Benjen be the only man we meet who takes the NW out of simple honor/desire? Or is it more likely he was doing it for tragedy, failure, his own crime or culpability? This is ASOI&F, so I lean towards the greatest possibly level of tragedy in my expectations.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

A little bit of crackpot and heresy: Benjen was the. Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion, aged around 14. We can assume that he was trained in leading and making decisions at that time, just like Robb was when Ned went to King's Landing and Bran was when Robb went to war. This training surely helped him to become First Ranger later on. And he received it for two years.

Now for the crackpot and the heresy: Benjen was contacted by Bloodraven during that time and Bloodraven made him take the black after the rebellion. Because maybe the Others need a Stark to lead them, and Benjen is the best candidate. He had leaders traing as Stark in Winterfell, and Nightwatch training after that. It fits with him disappearing and not being found dead. And we possibly get a Stark vs Stark replay of the Nightking's story.

Benjen Stark for NK reborn... COOL!

[bloodymime]

There has been discussion that though being 3rd born is a possible reason for going to the Wall (or being not the heir) - loses some of its logic when 3/5ths of your family just died in a war

or when it doesn't seem to be a necessity for other families to do it in the North (why then would the Starks need to, Glovers didn't, Umber's didn't etc. nor Martell, Frey, Lannister or Baratheon)

While I agree with the first part and have for a long time I don't think the second is really applicable. It's repeated more than once that the Starks honor the Wall and always have nor would they be a family to let their actions be dictated by what others do or don't do.

[Buried Treasure]

An organisation like the NW that relies on maintaining constant recruiting levels every generation can fall into decline very quickly. Benjen only joined the NW about 15 years before Jon and the Watch was already in chronic decline but in Westeros that is a whole generation shift of attitudes. When he was growing the Watch might have still retained slightly more of its honourable reputation than in Jon' time (and when his father was growing up the NW would have still had even more of its reputation intact). So I can accept that Benjen joined for honour & tradition alone.

If we absolutely must have a conspiracy theory perhaps Benjen's reasons for joining the Watch could have been something like Aemon's. Ned was his older brother and that should be absolutely enough to make him unquestionably Lord of Winterfell but he was raised in the South, fought a war in the South, and came home with a Southern wife. We could speculate that a faction of northern lords did not view Ned as enough of a northerner so wanted his younger brother as Lord of the North - it wouldn't be unheard of behaviour from Westerosi nobles. As Benjen loved his brother he may have decided to remove this problem by permanently removing himself from the line of succession.

[bloodymime]

An organisation like the NW that relies on maintaining constant recruiting levels every generation can fall into decline very quickly. Benjen only joined the NW about 15 years before Jon and the Watch was already in chronic decline but in Westeros that is a whole generation shift of attitudes. When he was growing the Watch might have still retained slightly more of its honourable reputation than in Jon' time (and when his father was growing up the NW would have still had even more of its reputation intact). So I can accept that Benjen joined for honour & tradition alone.

If we absolutely must have a conspiracy theory perhaps Benjen's reasons for joining the Watch could have been something like Aemon's. Ned was his older brother and that should be absolutely enough to make him unquestionably Lord of Winterfell but he was raised in the South, fought a war in the South, and came home with a Southern wife. We could speculate that a faction of northern lords did not view Ned as enough of a northerner so wanted his younger brother as Lord of the North - it wouldn't be unheard of behaviour from Westerosi nobles. As Benjen loved his brother he may have decided to remove this problem by permanently removing himself from the line of succession.

Interesting scenario. Could explain why he leaves as soon as Ned comes north. Martin has said he left for the Wall a couple of months after Ned returned when you'd think at the least he'd wait a few years to make sure the boy is old enough to reduce the chance of dying to freak accident. Even with maesters there's still a high mortality rate in children due to sickness, not as bad as north of the Wall but still high enough where you don't take survival for granted.

[Ciazio]

An organisation like the NW that relies on maintaining constant recruiting levels every generation can fall into decline very quickly. Benjen only joined the NW about 15 years before Jon and the Watch was already in chronic decline but in Westeros that is a whole generation shift of attitudes. When he was growing the Watch might have still retained slightly more of its honourable reputation than in Jon' time (and when his father was growing up the NW would have still had even more of its reputation intact). So I can accept that Benjen joined for honour & tradition alone.

If we absolutely must have a conspiracy theory perhaps Benjen's reasons for joining the Watch could have been something like Aemon's. Ned was his older brother and that should be absolutely enough to make him unquestionably Lord of Winterfell but he was raised in the South, fought a war in the South, and came home with a Southern wife. We could speculate that a faction of northern lords did not view Ned as enough of a northerner so wanted his younger brother as Lord of the North - it wouldn't be unheard of behaviour from Westerosi nobles. As Benjen loved his brother he may have decided to remove this problem by permanently removing himself from the line of succession.

Plausible. But were are the Houses that were opposing Ned? The Boltons, true, but they aren't so powerful to make Ned sent Ben to the Wall...

[Capon Breath]

Lol at using science to debate the decomposition of re-animated zombies in a fantasy book with dragons! ;)

[Spring Bass]

I doubt Ned would ever send Benjen away (particularly after Brandon and Lyanna's deaths), but I could easily imagine Benjen deciding that he didn't want to just hang around Winterfell his life mostly doing nothing - he wanted to be "part of the action", and the Wall was the best place to do that. It's not like he can't come home and visit, either, since he came south from the Wall to be at the feast Ned was holding for Robert.

[bloodymime]

Plausible. But were are the Houses that were opposing Ned? The Boltons, true, but they aren't so powerful to make Ned sent Ben to the Wall...

Good points, not to mention most of those Houses went south under his command and nothing makes a man's reputation in that culture than succeeding in battle which Ned did. Indeed they all came back North with tales of how Ned slew the finest knight in the realm in single combat(if his men are talking about it they're bragging about it and I'd say it's a fair guess that's the story in the North).

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

While I agree with the first part and have for a long time I don't think the second is really applicable. It's repeated more than once that the Starks honor the Wall and always have nor would they be a family to let their actions be dictated by what others do or don't do.

Except that honoring the Wall and sending a non-heir are different things, I agree the Starks do honor the Wall, but I feel "we" (the readers) have manufactured the 3rd born/non heir thing a bit. It isn't really supported in the store (there aren't many noble sons in the NW at the time), but it was something historically true. I just feel it has eroded.

and believe the Benjen has a deeper story perspective

[bloodymime]

Except that honoring the Wall and sending a non-heir are different things, I agree the Starks do honor the Wall, but I feel "we" (the readers) have manufactured the 3rd born/non heir thing a bit. It isn't really supported in the store (there aren't many noble sons in the NW at the time), but it was something historically true. I just feel it has eroded.

and believe the Benjen has a deeper story perspective

I agree with that, the maesters and the Faith and the Wall are just options for those not to inherit if they're chomping at the bit to do something else. There's the Royce boy and I can't think of anyone else offhand. He also seemed to have a dick attitude so it might not even have been his choice but his father's.

In fact this is what the Old Bear says,

"Apart from the men at my table tonight, I have perhaps twenty who can read, and even fewer who can think, or plan, or lead."

We don't know whether that's just for Castle Black or if he's speaking for the Wall. I'm inclined to think it's overall. Mentioned at the table are Thorne, Aemon, Marsh, and Rykker, perhaps a few more unmentioned. The Wall has become really nothing more than a garbage dump/ penal colony as voiced by Lord Tarly.

"If it were up to me, I would send them all to the Night’s Watch, and Connington with them. The Wall is where such scum belong.”

I agree about Benjen as well. Martin has said his reason for going to the Wall will be revealed before the books are done. Which to me anyways sounds meatier than just being a third son. There's also a line by the Halfhand that says Benjen was on to something.

“The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well."

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

Great points, Bloody Mime.

The NW respect/honor the reader feels is primarily created from our initial GoT POVs, Starks, Jon - who is convincing himself of the path he is about to commit to. Then we get Tyrion's honesty, Sam's sad story and though some very noble characters emerge, the betrayal of Mormont (attempted betrayal) the relationship w/ Craster, Alastair, Jonus and supporters, definitely outweigh the hallowed order.

Part of me believes Jon's story must continue, because he brought the honor and belief back to the NW, despite the dissent & wildling haters he really has attracted several people to the greater cause, people willing to join, rather than forced (though the war looming adds to it)

[mediterraneo]

Benjen Stark for NK reborn... COOL!

Benjen Stark is secretely Mance Raider. It is known.

[HouseManwoody]

hello....been lurking around and thought I would ask this question, not sure if it has been addressed in the past.

Why was the Benjen at Winterfell for Robert's feast to begin with? It sounds like he has been there before that since the stark kids/Jon know him, even close to him in Jon's case. I can kinda understand the NW LC sending the first ranger in place of the LC not going, to honor the King, and to let the represent the NW, although that is kinda like the King visiting a land, and the Ruling Lord instead staying in his room and sending his heir to greet and feast with the king. However since the NW wants it's brothers to sever any ties with their old families, it seems that Benjen has continued to have ties with his family and grown new ties with Jon and the Stark kids.

[bloodymime]

hello....been lurking around and thought I would ask this question, not sure if it has been addressed in the past.

Why was the Benjen at Winterfell for Robert's feast to begin with? It sounds like he has been there before that since the stark kids/Jon know him, even close to him in Jon's case. I can kinda understand the NW LC sending the first ranger in place of the LC not going, to honor the King, and to let the represent the NW, although that is kinda like the King visiting a land, and the Ruling Lord instead staying in his room and sending his heir to greet and feast with the king. However since the NW wants it's brothers to sever any ties with their old families, it seems that Benjen has continued to have ties with his family and grown new ties with Jon and the Stark kids.

Being a Stark he'd be given more leeway especially after he's proven himself, which he has being First Ranger. It's always good to keep good relations with the most powerful family you depend on when it hits the fan. And indeed we see there's a bit of a split in his personality, when he's in Winterfell he's a very different person to Jon then when they are at the Wall.

Jon is still young, the seperation is still fresh and raw. As time went on and he grew up I'd imagine he'd enjoy the same benefits in travelling to Winterfell as Benjen.

[JimJam]

Sorry for my english.

We know that Benjen and Lyanna were very close. If Benjen knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna, he could almost certainly knew alson about "prophecy thing" that was probably behind Rhaegar's actions and his attempt to run away with Lyanna and have a child with her. If Benjen believe that prophecy is true and long winter has been coming (and remember that Benjen was Stark and he surely knew about Long Night, Last Hero, The Others etc), there is no better place to go than Night's Watch. Benjen obviously took things seriously, he became First Ranger in quite young age and it definitely wasn't because of being Stark, he had to be as good as other great rangers like Qhorin. Also it was Benjen who gave Jon an idea to join NW, in GoT he said to Jon something like we need men like you on the Wall. I think thet Benjen knowe about Jon's parentage and Azor Ahai prophecy and it influenced his actions.

[MotherofFlagons]

Great, comprehensive post Maia! I also like that the series starts out with Benjen and perhaps could end with him gaining prominence as an important character. while I hate tacky crime shows I like when these things can be tied up to someone who you saw at the very beginning. Granted, I doubt his knowledge of Jon/Lyanna etc would "tie up" ASOIAF but it'd be significant.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Benjen Stark is secretely Mance Raider. It is known.

LOL surprised Jon didn't catch that when they met! I'm glad this thread got started, Benjen's motivation for joining the NW's seems to be very important in the overall narrative. That being said we just don't have enough info... I can only hope WOW puts some of these questions to rest.

[Maia]

But time was in short supply, so I understand why he didn't tell Jon about his mother before sending him off.

It wasn't so short that Ned couldn't have told Jon something that might have been of fundamental importance to Jon's future choices! IMHO, Ned didn't want to tell him, not as long as Jon still had an option to do something that Ned would have disapproved of - like pursuing his birthright. Ned was torn between his loyalties - to his sister and/or to his friend dearer than a brother. So, he compromised the best he could.

Ned could not take his bastard son to court.

Yes, he could have. Jon Arryn's squire was a commoner without a surname, which is surely worse, and we later see quite a few bastards coming to court and learn about historical bastards holding high positions at court. "He would be mocked" was an incredibly feeble argument, since Ned had to know from Benjen that Jon would be mocked in NW too.

Besides, there were options of placing Jon in the royal fleet or heck, even Goldcloaks. IMHO the only plausible reason for Ned not taking his "beloved bastard" along and opting for sending him to NW at 14 (!) was that he knew very well that it would attract potentially deadly curiousity - i.e. that Jon is Lyanna's.

I do agree with the notion that Ned kept Jon in WF instead, of say, fostering, which would have been better for everybody concerned, was that in WF Ned could control rumors and access to Jon. Not everybody who knows about Jon's parentage may agree with Ned's decisions about rearing him in ignorance, after all. Which is why, again, when Ned has to leave in a hurry, this otherwise logical solution is not considered.

The question would be which holdfasts are available at a given time. The Starks cannot simply dispossess a lord or lady to install their younger sons in their place.

I was always puzzled about Ned mentioning a keep for Bran, since there is clearly more than enough for a second Stark to do helping his brother to rule the North from Winterfell and more than enough resources to sustain him and his family.

Nor did we see that being a consideration for any other noble family in the North, nearly all of which seem to have at least one of brothers/uncles/cousins of the lord sticking around and helping. And those who don't, like Boltons, end at the risk of extinction.

Yet looking back after ADwD, it is clear that Ned just knew that several lordships and respective keeps might become vacant during Bran's life - i.e. Dreadfort (I don't see Ramsey being legitimised if Ned had a voice there), Barrowtown (left to the widow, since there are no strong blood claimants, no clear heirs after her) and of course, Manderly only has granddaughters, so there is a potential for Bran becoming a husband of a ruling Lady and Protector of White Harbor.

So, future of Benjen and/or Bran and Rickon wasn't really contingent on there being free lordships for them.

Not to mention that Benjen could have married Lady Dustin after Robert's Rebellion.

[Onion Ring Knight]

I was always puzzled about Ned mentioning a keep for Bran, since there is clearly more than enough for a second Stark to do helping his brother to rule the North from Winterfell and more than enough resources to sustain him and his family.

Nor did we see that being a consideration for any other noble family in the North, nearly all of which seem to have at least one of brothers/uncles/cousins of the lord sticking around and helping. And those who don't, like Boltons, end at the risk of extinction.

Yet looking back after ADwD, it is clear that Ned just knew that several lordships and respective keeps might become vacant during Bran's life - i.e. Dreadfort (I don't see Ramsey being legitimised if Ned had a voice there), Barrowtown (left to the widow, since there are no strong blood claimants, no clear heirs after her) and of course, Manderly only has granddaughters, so there is a potential for Bran becoming a husband of a ruling Lady and Protector of White Harbor.

Wait, Manderly had two sons (Wylis and Wendel). Wendel was killed at the Red Wedding but Wylis is still alive at the end of DANCE isn't he?