Why did Benjen take the black?

[bloodymime]

They're definitely not set up to be actualy useful for finding anything particular.

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

Could not have said it better, Maia #56!

Really like the delay/failure to get the message idea, has the feeling of the story in it.

What if Ned didn't know himself? Or believes he knows but is incorrect?

Tini,

I wasn't suggesting the motives were important, more suggesting if we imagine from Jon's POV,

Ned (or Benjen) choosing the Watch (at Jon's insistence) then having the most important discussion of Jon's life and telling him by the way, your not my son, you are a Stark and a Targaryan; sorry you committed your life to this thing & were kicked out of Winterfell (when your not really my bastard) by Catelyn and didn't have a truthful understanding of who you are when you made the decision to go to the Wall.

Yes they were protecting him, but a lot of our opinion of the heroism @ the NW is based on Jon's 16 year old POV trying to convince himself of a decision and he romanticizes it, and is rudely awakened to reality, which is clear to Tyrion immediately.

For Ned it was a solution, sending Jon to the NW doesn't seem to me to fit well with a promise to Lyanna or protecting a Targaryan bastard.

I'd like to believe and my memory supports an idea of Ned thinking it would be the best solution for Jon, if he were protecting Lyanna's son or not wanting Robert to kill another Targ, I think he would place a premium on the commitment the NW demands as well as the protection of Jon, he wouldn't take the vows lightly.

Also the Wall doesn't seem like a particularly safe place.

I could be wrong but I'm trying to imagine the intent of that decision, based on the different possible ideas of Jon's parentage. Ned's decision to me seems more in line w/ Jon as his bastard to me.

[Maia]

I could be wrong but I'm trying to imagine the intent of that decision, based on the different possible ideas of Jon's parentage. Ned's decision to me seems more in line w/ Jon as his bastard to me.

On the contrary, Ned sending his own bastard to NW at the age of 14 would have been neglectful and cruel. It is not true that he couldn't have taken his own bastard to court and found him a possible career. It is not true that Ned couldn't have placed his bastard with one of his bannermen as a fosterling/squire. Etc.

Oh, but with Lyanna's son Ned suffers from conflict of duties and loyalties. He wants to keep him safe, yes, but also to keep Robert and his line safe from him. So, he keeps Jon close and when he can't anymore, then NW seems like a pretty good solution, even though Jon is too young.

Also, Ned thought about(his?) broken promises at some point and thinks about Jon with shame in his last PoV. Clearly, he didn't do exactly as he promised, but compromised. And, as he knows in the end, for nothing as Westeros was spiralling towards a civil war anyway.

[Lau-la Mora]

Is a little bit off topic but somebody knows why the Old Bear took the black?? I don't remember if is mentioned in the books....

And I think Benjen is going to be important just like that ranger lost in the Frostfangs.

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

Yeah Maia,

definitely cruel if he sends his own son too,

I think w/ the Lyanna side of it, that unless he expects Jon to act rashly, he would probably remove some of his own responsibility and give it to Jon - knowing the NW is for life. I just feel you may choose for a son, less so for another's son (at his age). Obviously the foresight of the wars/beheadings wasn't known but I feel the tone of the Ned/Jon moments could be helpful/

It would be valuable investigate Ned's final conversation w/ Jon, when he says we will discuss it next time & the decisions (Catelyn & jon's) to go to NW.

I remember feeling it was a choice based on desiring an intimate moment w/ Jon,

not waiting for more time (not being hurried by becoming the Hand and leaving)

When Ned & Catelyn were discussing it I felt like he decided it was the best choice, supporting its a good life for a bastard perspective.

I'll re-read when I can, but both felt fatherly rather than god-father/guardian-ly to me

also the re-watch of the show had some interesting Sean Bean facial expressions in relationship to these moments and him talking w/ Robert about Wylla.

[Abel]

i like your ideas about benjen`s decision going to the wall, being so close to lyanna, knowing about the secret and not preventing what happened.

and these may be the main reasons.

but i also think when benjen knew the truth about Jon plus being so young and being so close to his sister he would have or has adored the son of his beloved dead sister and would have cared way too much about him, than it`s normal for a bastard nephew baby.

also he would have hated how catelyn treated him which didn`t improved when jon got older, more worse. so i suppose someday benjen would have stepped in protecting jon, starting to argue with Cat, respectively the Lady of Winterfell.

What does that mean for Ned? Needing to deal with a war torn North, a new wife who is a stranger to the north, a bastard baby which is hated by his wife and his little brother and his wife being at the throat of one another for no plausible reason as far as benjen is concerned.

that might have caused rumors....

next thing. lyanna told him about rhaegars believes.

so, benjen sitting in winterfell while the wars going on and having a pretty ample and additionally one of the oldest libraries in westeros at hand (which is by the way pretty neglected although there`s one of the few left copies about dragons and that so far north...) .... what would you do? maybe the same thing as ned did in king`s landing trying to find out what was the matter with jon arryn - starting to read.

what had he possibly found out?

more about dragons, white walkers, ancient legends, Stark heritage... whatever was in this library seems pretty valuable to me.

so the 2 reasons together make pretty good points for his decision to join the NW. (at least for me)

on the Wall he became the 1 ranger, is dealt as the next LC and is close to Aemon Targaryen - who obviously knew about the legend. and as comes out (i`m sorry at least in the TV show) benjen is quite a defender of the NW and i think it`s not just about honour (although it`s also a big part of it) but also because he maybe knows about the deeper reasons behind the existence of the wall and the NW. being a ranger must have shown him a lot of unimagable stuff.

he always wanted jon to join the NW, maybe not at that age, but he always encouraged him to come some day.

when the hole Stark family splitted, jon would have been left back with Catlyn - not a good idea. sure he could have been fostered somewhere else, although i don`t know if that`s common in the north, sending your bastards to become knights?? can`t imagine that one. but well.

so first reason. the kingdom is in obvious danger or at least robert`s kingship, which would lead to a new war - unsave situation. robbert still wants to kill all targaryens - unsave situation. jon insists on going - he is an adult in westeros, no point to forbid it. leaving him with cat - not a good idea.

second reason - benjen is the next one knowing who he really is. leaving jon with him must have seemed a good idea for ned in case something happens to him. i mean none of thme knew that benjen went missing at that point.

third reason - benjen knew or at least had a theory about that jon needed to go to the wall for fullfilling his faith. there needed to be someone to tell him, someone to make it all a bit easier for him. protecting lyanna`s child after everything that happend, after all the guilt benjen probably felt could have been his way of apologizing for one. and second knowing all that stuff he knew also that winter is coming and the mankind needs to be saved from whatever the white walkers are.

fourth reason - being so close to maester aemon (and i`m so damn sure aemon knew that bloodraven is still out there) the two of them had something worked out. i really hate jon for not reading the passage aemon urged him to read. stupid boy.

so benjen in the Land of Always Winter, bran with bloodraven... time for one of them to get back, doing whatever there must be done for jon to fullfil his due.

[Im no Ser]

I don't think the Starks have problems with what to do with younger sons. The plan for Bran and Rickon was that that they would become knights and rule over Holdfasts in Robb's name; farming them out to the Watch wasn't an option. And as others have pointed out, it isn't as if the other Northern families are sending their younger children to the wall.

[Tini]

Tini,

I wasn't suggesting the motives were important, more suggesting if we imagine from Jon's POV,

...

I could be wrong but I'm trying to imagine the intent of that decision, based on the different possible ideas of Jon's parentage. Ned's decision to me seems more in line w/ Jon as his bastard to me.

Ah, okay.

I don't think the decision had anything to do with Jon's parentage, or with protecting him.

It had to do with Ned's failure to make plans for Jon's future in a timely fashion.

If I remember correctly, Ned was not happy about sending Jon to the Wall. But he did not know what to do with Jon when his new office as Hand in King's Landing broke up the family, and it was Maester Lewin who suggested the Wall. Maybe Ned's feelings on the matter were influenced by the fact that he did look at things from Jon's POV. But time was in short supply, so I understand why he didn't tell Jon about his mother before sending him off. Especially if Jon's parentage is more complicated than a fling with a serving girl.

Ned could not take his bastard son to court. Jon is known as Ned's bastard after all - and should Jon be Rhaegar's son, it would be even more reason not to take him to Robert's court. Catelyn didn't like Jon, so leaving him with her was not a solution, either. Jon was 14 years old, grown up by Westeros standards, old enough to choose a profession - and Ned didn't know when he would return to Winterfell next, so Jon's future had to be decided on the spot.

I think most boys in Westeros get apprenticed to learn a profession while a lot younger than Jon was when Ned sent him to the Wall. Did Ned forget how old Jon was, or did he procrastinate making plans for Jon's future? Why didn't he make plans for his near-grown son?

I don't think the Starks have problems with what to do with younger sons. The plan for Bran and Rickon was that that they would become knights and rule over Holdfasts in Robb's name; farming them out to the Watch wasn't an option. And as others have pointed out, it isn't as if the other Northern families are sending their younger children to the wall.

The question would be which holdfasts are available at a given time. The Starks cannot simply dispossess a lord or lady to install their younger sons in their place. It also seems unlikely that the Starks would give their sons a stewardship over holdfasts that reverts back to the lord of Winterfell when they die. The holdfast would become their possession, as Karhold became possession of the Karstark family.

And while Bran and Rickon probably wouldn't have been "farmed out to the Wall", we don't know if the Watch was really no option for them. That is not stated anywhere in the text, and we don't know how Ned would have reacted if a grown-up Bran or Rickon had expressed an interest in joining the Watch. We can only say for sure that "farming out to the Wall" was no option for Robb Stark because he was heir to Winterfell.

We don't really know what the plans for Rickon and Bran were. All we have is 7 year-old Bran's vague idea (or was that Jon's thoughts?) that Bran will become Robb's bannerman some day, and hold a holdfast for him. And while Ned and Catelyn would not have objected to their sons becoming knights, that was not really required, either. Knighthood is mostly a southern way of life.

[bloodymime]

You mean Ned's explanation to Bran how someday he will dispense justice as Robb's bannerman.

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you."

[King Doug]

Is a little bit off topic but somebody knows why the Old Bear took the black?? I don't remember if is mentioned in the books....

And I think Benjen is going to be important just like that ranger lost in the Frostfangs.

I think Mormont took the black to step aside and let his son rule.

[Im no Ser]

The question would be which holdfasts are available at a given time. The Starks cannot simply dispossess a lord or lady to install their younger sons in their place. It also seems unlikely that the Starks would give their sons a stewardship over holdfasts that reverts back to the lord of Winterfell when they die.

Why does it seem unlikely? There are non-hereditary seats: The Royce's of the Gates of the Moon come to mind. Or if that's not the route Ned wants to take he can marry them off to the daughters of houses without male heirs, or create new lordships in the unpopulated areas south of the wall (something Ned had been contemplating generally IIRC). He has plenty of options.

We don't really know what the plans for Rickon and Bran were. All we have is 7 year-old Bran's vague idea (or was that Jon's thoughts?) that Bran will become Robb's bannerman some day, and hold a holdfast for him. And while Ned and Catelyn would not have objected to their sons becoming knights, that was not really required, either. Knighthood is mostly a southern way of life.

Bloodymine cited the quote above. The notion that'd they'd rule over a keep is Ned's, not Bran's. Ned's plan for his younger boys doesn't have all the details yet - the boys are still very young - but the outline of a plan is there, and it doesn't include the watch. I suppose if one of the boys wanted to join Ned might have agreed, but that isn't the life he has in mind for them.

[Ciazio]

Be ready for "da bomb", I've worked out a brand new theory.

Benjen bedded Ashara Dayne at Harrenal. "Then what?" you might ask and.... here it comes:

Their child is Gerold “Darkstar” Dayne. :eek:

• He is older than Jon
  
• He is "the most dangerous man in the realm" as said by Doran Martell, because he is part of the R+L = J secret. He might even know the full story tanks to Benjen.
  
• He is a mix of Stark and Dayne traits: black/silver hair, dark purple (almost black) eyes.
  
• "Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night". Benjen is in the Night's Watch.
  
• Ned asked Benjen to take the black because he dishonored Ashara (Ned loved her) and knew Jon's real parents, since he helped Lyanna in her quest for Rhaegar’s love.
  
• Benjen and Jon's dialogue in AGOT: "You might want to father a bastard of your own before coming to the Wall, you don't know what you are going to give up" (or something like this). WHY on earth should someone without children say something like this?
  

Question: does Benjen have black eyes, an aquiline nose, high cheekbones or a strong jaw? Can't remember, but Darkstar looks this way.

Cheers :laugh:

[bemused]

Only TV Benjen..:D

[oakenhelm]

I hope Benjen has some role to play later. But I think one reason why he went to the Wall was that GRRM's plan to scatter all the Stark kids had to make sure they couldn't reunite with their kin plausibly. Every other family has a sibling, parent or aunt/uncle/cousin/nephew/niece they can rely on and gain strength with. Not the case for the Starks. The scales have tipped against them. If that is the case, the Benjen didn't need to exist at all. That would lead me to believe we haven't seen the last of him

I guess my answer is plot reasons, rather than his personal motivations. Seems just speculation for the characters motivation. I don't think I buy the idea that he went to the Wall because he couldn't inherit Winterfell

[ledlevee]

Even if he's there for plot reasons, there still has to be a reason within the story that would make sense. I guess the "There's always been a Stark on the Wall" thing could make sense. I like the idea that he has a touch of greensight and saw in a dream that he needs to go far North for some reason.

[Prince of the North]

My theory is that Benjen joined the NW, at least partially, due to disagreeing with Ned on just what to do with Jon (I believe R+L=J). I think it would have been very easy for Benjen to guess the truth when Ned returned with Jon in tow (or maybe Ned even told him?). Either way, I think Benjen wanted to acknowledge Jon's birthright (most likely through a regency at first) and, if it meant war with the Baratheons, then so be it. Ned, of course, couldn't and wouldn't do this so Benjen did the "honorable" thing and joined the NW.

As some flimsy "evidence" of this, I offer Benjen's response of "More's the pity" when drunk Jon throws "You're not my father" in his face at the feast. I believe the unspoken message here is that Benjen is hinting that things would be different if he would have been able to make the decisions concerning Jon.

[Buried Treasure]

Ah, okay.

I don't think the decision had anything to do with Jon's parentage, or with protecting him.

It had to do with Ned's failure to make plans for Jon's future in a timely fashion.

If I remember correctly, Ned was not happy about sending Jon to the Wall. But he did not know what to do with Jon when his new office as Hand in King's Landing broke up the family, and it was Maester Lewin who suggested the Wall. Maybe Ned's feelings on the matter were influenced by the fact that he did look at things from Jon's POV. But time was in short supply, so I understand why he didn't tell Jon about his mother before sending him off. Especially if Jon's parentage is more complicated than a fling with a serving girl.

Ned could not take his bastard son to court. Jon is known as Ned's bastard after all - and should Jon be Rhaegar's son, it would be even more reason not to take him to Robert's court. Catelyn didn't like Jon, so leaving him with her was not a solution, either. Jon was 14 years old, grown up by Westeros standards, old enough to choose a profession - and Ned didn't know when he would return to Winterfell next, so Jon's future had to be decided on the spot.

I think most boys in Westeros get apprenticed to learn a profession while a lot younger than Jon was when Ned sent him to the Wall. Did Ned forget how old Jon was, or did he procrastinate making plans for Jon's future? Why didn't he make plans for his near-grown son?

...

And while Bran and Rickon probably wouldn't have been "farmed out to the Wall", we don't know if the Watch was really no option for them. That is not stated anywhere in the text, and we don't know how Ned would have reacted if a grown-up Bran or Rickon had expressed an interest in joining the Watch. We can only say for sure that "farming out to the Wall" was no option for Robb Stark because he was heir to Winterfell.

Nice post, I'd add the caveat though that Luwin only suggested the Wall because Jon had already suggested the idea. If Jon had not already expressed an interest in the NW I don't think Ned would have pushed him into it. If that had been the case I'm sure Ned could have arranged a fostering. It might have been awkward because time was short and talking about bastards is a delicate subject but bastards are fostered into noble houses all the time and Jon was the right age to be a squire. That would have solved the problem for maybe 4 or 5 years.

On Jon being apprenticed / not having plans made for him; he was apprenticed - as a northern 'knight' / commander. Neither he nor Robb were ever called squires, but that is the stage they were in their development. If Ned had not gone south and not decided to grant Jon a holdfast then Jon might have stayed on at Winterfell. He could have been a household 'knight' in the the same way that many lords have family members as retainers. When Ned died an adult Robb would surely ba willing to have Jon working with him. In the normal course of events Cat would never have been intended to run Winterfell for several years and would not have had final say on who could remain in the household

[JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN]

Benjen Stark is an intriguing character who is barely present yet still has the potential of being a crucial person to the plot of ASOIAF. He was around well before the current timeline and was most certainly a witness to the feudal fuck-all-circus that was Robert's Rebellion. He was in a position to know a lot and be accountable for little. So why take a vow with the only gig in town that's become a penal watchguard institution if he couldn't have been accountable for anything deserving of the implication in its service?

(NOTE:)) Much of this speculation is derived from (1) the weirwood vision by Bran of he and Lyanna playing at swords in the godswood, (2) his presence at TotFS, (3) the conversation he has with Jon during his introduction in AGoT chap 5

We don't really have much to go on as he up and disappears in the first book. I would argue though that these passages are the truest window we have into who Benjen is as a person. Admittedly I have disregarded certain Tyrion chapters as I believe they contain bias on both parties' sides.

I guess my response to the OP would be because he felt extremely conflicted following the events of Robert's Rebellion and couldn't agree with Ned's decision of how to raise Jon, who I clearly believe to be Rhaegar's son (at least R+L=J is, to me, the most plausible and awesome literary twist I halfway wish I had never discovered)

(1) I believe that Ben, being the youngest Stark, was the closest to Lyanna and was the most likely confidant to her. The two are witnessed by Bran sword fighting with sticks in the godswood and Lyanna bests him. Much like Arya had to make playmates amongst her brothers and rarely had a female friend, Lyanna probably only had Benjen as a companion, especially after her father and brothers left to pursue their 'Southron ambitions.'

(2) During the TotFS as told by Jojen to Bran, I first read it to mean that Howland was the mystery knight. But I have since been convinced that Lyanna as the mystery knight would make the course of events much more believable, especially the line "Are you sure your father never told you about this?" (paraphrasing)

She may or may not have employed Benjen to aid her but he most certainly would have recognized her and approached her about it. He would have also been old enough to interpret the implication behind Rhaegar's presentation of the QoL&B to her. I speculate that Benjen would have been Lyanna's only confidant about Rhaegar's advances and he may have eventually aided her in her escape/kidnapping.

But this is pure speculation, which is fun, but dissecting real dialogue is a better.

(3) In the Jon chapter Ben is first introduced walking next to Theon and he smiles warmly at Jon. This is one of the only instances of an adult character other than Tyrion addressing Jon politely.

When he joins Jon at the table the subtext gets even more intriguing.

Benjen's voice is considered 'familiar' by Jon and also 'close at hand'. He then rubs Jon's head and Jon likens the connection to that of he and Ghost. This intimate closeness implies that the two are very comfortable with each other really do love each other, possibly more than an uncle would love a bastard nephew.

He laughs at Jon getting drunk and admits to being younger than he when he was first sincerely "in his cups." He snags an onion and Jon's like "you're so cool!!"(not really but...)

Jon notes that, "there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-gray eyes."

He sounds like a pretty awesome guy to me. Likes to party, likes to laugh, but deadlier than most....

While Jon is talking of direwolf pups, "Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look." He then comments that Ned looks troubled and Jon extrapolates about everybody on the dais.

He mentions Robert visiting the crypts with Ned and Ben "gave Jon a careful, measured look, 'You don't miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall.'"

Of course Jon takes this as a compliment asks to join

"Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully, 'The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon.'"

Then something interesting happens. Jon references Daeren Targaryen being a boy conqueror younger than him. "The Young Dragon was one of his heroes."

Then the point of bastardness comes up.

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said, "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Jon felt the anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put his hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."

I love this excerpt. Ben acts both as an uncle but also fatherly and brotherly towards Jon all in one. And he raises a ton of subtextual questions.

What is the price he would pay for saying the oath?

Could Jon technically father a bastard? Would all his children be bastards because of his bastardy? I know this has been discussed elsewhere. some clarification please

He certainly studies Jon pretty thoroughly and seems to be regarding him as more than just a bastard in my opinion.

Reread the first Jon chapter and see what you think.

I think Benjen Stark will be our caveat to Jon's parentage story. Whether he is alive or dead, I don't think we've seen the last of him.

[Bog Devil]

Feel free to correct my timing if it's wrong, but I think there's a very simple explanation. After Brandon and Rickard's deaths, Ned is the Lord of Winterfell, leaving Benjen next in line. As Ned races off to join Robert in his war, a notoriously dangerous sport, Benjen is obligated to stay in Winterfell to maintain the safety of the Stark line. Even once Cat is known to be pregnant, she's still at Riverrun, and being pregnant in a medieval society is no guarantee that you'll actually have a baby.

So there sits Benjen at Winterfell, a young man having always lived in the shadow of his elder brothers, seeing to the humdrum, mundane activities of a lord in an empty castle. Ned and Robert are in the South, bathing in glory and fighting a winning campaign against the greatest dynasty in living memory, while he spends his days freezing his balls off in the barren north settling disputes between farmers.

In two years, the war is over. Ned returns to Winterfell with his Lady wife and infant heir, alive and well. Upon his return, he assumes the lordship and all associated responsibilities. Benjen is extraneous again. And Benjen has a secret. He's been having dreams. He sees things in these dreams, almost as if from the eyes of the animals of Winterfell. And the things that he sees in these dreams are true when he wakes.

So now, Ned having assumed the responsibilities of Winterfell's lordship with his firstborn heir intact, and Cat itching to make more little babies for him, Benjen looks to the Wall. He knows that the Night's Watch is a proud tradition among the Starks, and with no wars to fight, it's there among the misfits of the realm that he might get his chance at honor and glory, and where his dreams might be a gift instead of a curse.

I know it's not quite so exciting as a few of the other theories put forth here, but it's the one that I think is the most plausible, and gives Benjen a character all his own.

By the way, we all know that he's Coldhands, right? Got killed, warged a wight, and sought out Mr. Three-Eyed-Crow who he'd been seeing more and more often in his dreams.

[Ciazio]

Only TV Benjen.. :D

In AGOT chapter 5:

"Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."

:cool4:

By the way, we all know that he's Coldhands, right? Got killed, warged a wight, and sought out Mr. Three-Eyed-Crow who he'd been seeing more and more often in his dreams.

Benjen's not Coldhands... Bloodraven says: "They have killed him long time ago". A few months (even 2 years) is not that long time.

Moreover, who's the nephew that won't recognize his own uncle because he wears a scarf? Bran's too smart...