Why did Benjen take the black?

[Bog Devil]

Moreover, who's the nephew that won't recognize his own uncle because he wears a scarf? Bran's too smart...

On account of he's not in Benjen Stark's body anymore. It's just some wight, probably the one that killed him, that he was able to swap into for his second life. The Night's Watch serves for life. Anything goes for second life.

[Prince of the North]

By the way, we all know that he's Coldhands, right? Got killed, warged a wight, and sought out Mr. Three-Eyed-Crow who he'd been seeing more and more often in his dreams.

Yes, I believe Coldhands is Benjen Stark. Only I don't think he warged a wight or anything like that. I simply believe Benjen was killed in the frozen north, and as severe frostbite was setting in (i.e. his extremeties turned black and hard, etc.), Bryndon Rivers aka Bloodraven aka The Three-Eyed Crow brought him back using sorcery similar to the cases of Beric Donderrion and Lady Stoneheart. Remember, among other things Bloodraven was also rumored to be a sorceror ;)

Benjen's not Coldhands... Bloodraven says: "They have killed him long time ago". A few months (even 2 years) is not that long time.

Moreover, who's the nephew that won't recognize his own uncle because he wears a scarf? Bran's too smart...

Actually, it was the CotF "Leaf" who said that and we don't really know the context of what she meant. Did she mean a long time ago to her? Or did she mean a long time ago to the kids? Yes, I noted that statement when I read it, too, but we really just don't know... :dunno:

Also, I do believe Bran could conceivably not recognize that Coldhands is his uncle due to the scarf, black extremeties, etc. If Martin does go that way and it does turn out to be the case, I won't be crying foul because I think Bran should have absolutely recognized him.

In addition, when Bran accuses Coldhands of being "a monster" and Coldhands answers something like "yes, but I'm your monster" I think what he means is that he was created because of Bran and that he's on Bran's side. I think the TEC knew things were coming to a head and the kids were trying to get to him so he created an assistant or ally to guide them to him: Coldhands. Heh, I've just had a thought - in a way, I think Coldhands is to Bran what the Terminator was to young John Connor :P

[King Doug]

By the way, we all know that he's Coldhands, right? Got killed, warged a wight, and sought out Mr. Three-Eyed-Crow who he'd been seeing more and more often in his dreams.

Yes, I believe Coldhands is Benjen Stark. Only I don't think he warged a wight or anything like that. I simply believe Benjen was killed in the frozen north, and as severe frostbite was setting in (i.e. his extremeties turned black and hard, etc.), Bryndon Rivers aka Bloodraven aka The Three-Eyed Crow brought him back using sorcery similar to the cases of Beric Donderrion and Lady Stoneheart. Remember, among other things Bloodraven was also rumored to be a sorceror ;)

Actually, it was the CotF "Leaf" who said that and we don't really know the context of what she meant. Did she mean a long time ago to her? Or did she mean a long time ago to the kids? Yes, I noted that statement when I read it, too, but we really just don't know... :dunno:

Also, I do believe Bran could conceivably not recognize that Coldhands is his uncle due to the scarf, black extremeties, etc. If Martin does go that way and it does turn out to be the case, I won't be crying foul because I think Bran should have absolutely recognized him.

In addition, when Bran accuses Coldhands of being "a monster" and Coldhands answers something like "yes, but I'm your monster" I think what he means is that he was created because of Bran and that he's on Bran's side. I think the TEC knew things were coming to a head and the kids were trying to get to him so he created an assistant or ally to guide them to him: Coldhands. Heh, I've just had a thought - in a way, I think Coldhands is to Bran what the Terminator was to young John Connor :P

I'm so excited I get to argue this in two different threads in two days. Anyway...I completely disagree that Benjen is Coldhands. Personally, I think that Benjen is still alive, and has a bigger role to fill. My crackpot theory is that Benjen is the Hooded man in Winterfell. That is definitely crackpot, with little/no evidence to support it but I still like it (even if I don't really believe it).

Coldhands = the Night's King, that is also just a theory. But it is far less crackpotish. I actually have evidence to support it.

[King Doug]

But the reasons Coldhands = Night's King.....I hope I can remember them all but here we go.

1.) It can't be Benjen Stark, or anyone who has died recently because we are told that he "died long ago" by Leaf, who is a CofF. He would have to be thousands of years dead for the CotF to refer to him like that.

2.) When he rescues Sam, he calls him brother. Now that could mean he is any member of the NW and could even mean it is just Bloodraven warging a wight and speaking to him as Bloodraven, but I don't think so. I don't think it would be just any brother of the NW because of reason #3.

3.) He knows the secret passage under the Nightfort. As we all know, the Night's King was the commander of the Nightfort. We also know that Sam had no idea that the passage existed, implying that the secret of this passage was forgotten long ago. If anyone was going to learn about it, it would be Sam with the amount of reading he does and that is something Maester Aemon would probably have told Sam before he got shipped off. But Maester Aemon didn't know about it either.

4.) Old Nan's stories always have relevance and meaning. So far, the Night's King story hasn't been significant and this would make that change.

5.) Going back to Old Nan's story, she says that the NK was definitely a Stark. When Coldhands is confronted about his identity, Bran says that he's a monster. Coldhands looks back at Bran as if he is the only one in the room and says, "Your monster, Brandon Stark." He is not addressing Bran as Brandon, nobody calls him by his formal name (and Benjen would know to call him Bran). Coldhands is introducing himself as being named Brandon Stark.

[ledlevee]

Is it possible that rather than the Night King himself, Coldhands is the offspring of the Night King and his Other wife? I only say this because the Night King was a human, not a wight or an Other, and if he were brought back as a wight, I would think he was a mindless zombie like the other wights. Also, it seems like Bloodraven is in charge here, and I don't think the Night King would follow the orders of a young upstart like Bloodraven, but who knows?

[Ciazio]

5.) Going back to Old Nan's story, she says that the NK was definitely a Stark. When Coldhands is confronted about his identity, Bran says that he's a monster. Coldhands looks back at Bran as if he is the only one in the room and says, "Your monster, Brandon Stark." He is not addressing Bran as Brandon, nobody calls him by his formal name (and Benjen would know to call him Bran). Coldhands is introducing himself as being named Brandon Stark.

Genius

[Prince of the North]

But the reasons Coldhands = Night's King.....I hope I can remember them all but here we go.

Good stuff! I love hashing over theories! But I have some questions/comments.

1.) It can't be Benjen Stark, or anyone who has died recently because we are told that he "died long ago" by Leaf, who is a CofF. He would have to be thousands of years dead for the CotF to refer to him like that.

This is, of course, assuming Leaf meant a long time ago for her. Maybe she meant a long time ago for Bran? I know I find myself putting timeframes in terms that my children would understand. For example, three years ago is practically yesterday for me while it is half a lifetime ago for my six year old daughter. So when I'm talking to her about things that happened three years ago I say they happened a long time ago. Who knows :dunno:

2.) When he rescues Sam, he calls him brother. Now that could mean he is any member of the NW and could even mean it is just Bloodraven warging a wight and speaking to him as Bloodraven, but I don't think so. I don't think it would be just any brother of the NW because of reason #3.

Yeah, this could be any brother of the NW.

3.) He knows the secret passage under the Nightfort. As we all know, the Night's King was the commander of the Nightfort. We also know that Sam had no idea that the passage existed, implying that the secret of this passage was forgotten long ago. If anyone was going to learn about it, it would be Sam with the amount of reading he does and that is something Maester Aemon would probably have told Sam before he got shipped off. But Maester Aemon didn't know about it either.

Of course, we can't rule out that the TEC could have found out about it.

4.) Old Nan's stories always have relevance and meaning. So far, the Night's King story hasn't been significant and this would make that change.

True.

5.) Going back to Old Nan's story, she says that the NK was definitely a Stark. When Coldhands is confronted about his identity, Bran says that he's a monster. Coldhands looks back at Bran as if he is the only one in the room and says, "Your monster, Brandon Stark." He is not addressing Bran as Brandon, nobody calls him by his formal name (and Benjen would know to call him Bran). Coldhands is introducing himself as being named Brandon Stark.

I've seen this theory before and it's interesting. I detailed what I thought was going on there above. Another possible reason why Benjen as Coldhands would use Bran's full name is because he may not want him to know who he was/is for some reason. Thus, he wouldn't want to be too "familiar" with him and tip him off. Once again, I don't know :dunno:

One last thing - if Coldhands is the Night King, what's he been doing all this time? I think if there has been a kick-ass, undead, ex-ranger of the NW kickin' around the north all this time there would be some hint of it among the legends/myths/stories/rumors of the wildlings, etc.

[Lady of Long Lake]

But the reasons Coldhands = Night's King.....I hope I can remember them all but here we go.

5.) Going back to Old Nan's story, she says that the NK was definitely a Stark. When Coldhands is confronted about his identity, Bran says that he's a monster. Coldhands looks back at Bran as if he is the only one in the room and says, "Your monster, Brandon Stark." He is not addressing Bran as Brandon, nobody calls him by his formal name (and Benjen would know to call him Bran). Coldhands is introducing himself as being named Brandon Stark.

One of the old Brandon Starks from long ago was the King that died at sea. His body was never laid to rest at Winterfell because it was never found. Perhaps it's that one. His son was so mad they named him Brandon the Burner because he burned up all his Dads ships in anger.

[King Doug]

Is it possible that rather than the Night King himself, Coldhands is the offspring of the Night King and his Other wife? I only say this because the Night King was a human, not a wight or an Other, and if he were brought back as a wight, I would think he was a mindless zombie like the other wights. Also, it seems like Bloodraven is in charge here, and I don't think the Night King would follow the orders of a young upstart like Bloodraven, but who knows?

One last thing - if Coldhands is the Night King, what's he been doing all this time? I think if there has been a kick-ass, undead, ex-ranger of the NW kickin' around the north all this time there would be some hint of it among the legends/myths/stories/rumors of the wildlings, etc.

The thing I love about the legend of the Night's King, is that it was attempted to be stricken from memory. However, Old Nan seems to be VERY reliable. In that story, we never get mention of what happened to the Night's King afterwards. Simply taking his head is getting off too easy in my opinion. I think that his punishment is being the eternal servant to the CotF, and to accomplish that he would have to become either a wight or white walker or sorts.

[King Doug]

One of the old Brandon Starks from long ago was the King that died at sea. His body was never laid to rest at Winterfell because it was never found. Perhaps it's that one. His son was so mad they named him Brandon the Burner because he burned up all his Dads ships in anger.

There have been many, MANY Brandon Starks. Bran said as much when they were in the crypts after he had his dream that Ned was down there. Just to name a few; Brandon the builder, Brandon the shipwright, Brandon the burner, Brandon (Ned's Brother), and of course Bran. It seems to me that there is a Brandon in the Stark family every generation for tradition's sake, or close to it. Just like a lot of the Lannister's names start with 'Ty'; i.e. Tywin, Tyrion, Tytos, etc.

[King Doug]

Good stuff! I love hashing over theories! But I have some questions/comments.

1.) This is, of course, assuming Leaf meant a long time ago for her. Maybe she meant a long time ago for Bran? I know I find myself putting timeframes in terms that my children would understand. For example, three years ago is practically yesterday for me while it is half a lifetime ago for my six year old daughter. So when I'm talking to her about things that happened three years ago I say they happened a long time ago. Who knows :dunno:

2.) Yeah, this could be any brother of the NW.

3.) Of course, we can't rule out that the TEC could have found out about it.

4.) True.

5.) I've seen this theory before and it's interesting. I detailed what I thought was going on there above. Another possible reason why Benjen as Coldhands would use Bran's full name is because he may not want him to know who he was/is for some reason. Thus, he wouldn't want to be too "familiar" with him and tip him off. Once again, I don't know :dunno:

It's pretty hard for me to argue some of these comments or answer the questions. As you said, we simply don't know.

1.) When I read it, the fact she said "long ago" immediately struck me as if she was referring to time as relative to herself. And who knows how long the CotF live? But that was the first impression I got.

2.) True, could be just any member of the NW. I don't think so though. Just being random member would be quite anti-climatic.

3.) Maybe it was Bloodraven that learned about the passage under the Nightfort. Somehow I doubt it though. Bloodraven is a little over 100 years old, only slightly older than Maester Aemon. Aemon didn't know about the secret passage (that we know of, but I doubt he did) so I am led to believe that the passage was forgotten before that.

The Nightfort was abandoned 200 years prior to the War of the Five Kings, so the NW brothers that served at the Nightfort would not be able to tell Aemon/Bloodraven about it verbally because they were long dead before either was born. That also means that Bloodraven couldn't have warged anyone with the knowledge of the secret door. Also, there are no weirwood trees within distance for Bloodraven to use the weirnet to see people use it.

However, the door itself is made of weirwood and has a face, can it be used in the weirnet? I don't think so, personally, because it has no roots.

4.) No argument over Old Nan, she rocks.

5.) This is just another first impression I had. When I read that I immediately thought that he was introducing himself as being named Brandon Stark. That was my gut reaction.

But if Coldhands is Benjen...why hide it? Bran would then immediately trust him. Another reason I doubt it was Benjen is the fact that Coldhands fed Bran and his companions human meat (there was no sow when they were traveling). Now I know it was harsh out there, but I refuse to believe that Benjen would have made his nephew a cannibal. Especially without his knowledge, Bran was the Lord of Winterfell, and King in the North by right and Benjen would have respected that.

[Buried Treasure]

It's pretty hard for me to argue some of these comments or answer the questions. As you said, we simply don't know.

1.) When I read it, the fact she said "long ago" immediately struck me as if she was referring to time as relative to herself. And who knows how long the CotF live? But that was the first impression I got.

My thoughts on that were that in the context of dead people walking around 2 hours is a long time. The absolute minimum Coldhands has been dead is the few weeks he was travelling with Bran and company - which is a very long time for a dead person to be walking. If it's Benjen and he's been dead for a couple of years that satifies me as 'long ago'.

3.) Maybe it was Bloodraven that learned about the passage under the Nightfort. Somehow I doubt it though. Bloodraven is a little over 100 years old, only slightly older than Maester Aemon. Aemon didn't know about the secret passage (that we know of, but I doubt he did) so I am led to believe that the passage was forgotten before that.

The Nightfort was abandoned 200 years prior to the War of the Five Kings, so the NW brothers that served at the Nightfort would not be able to tell Aemon/Bloodraven about it verbally because they were long dead before either was born. That also means that Bloodraven couldn't have warged anyone with the knowledge of the secret door. Also, there are no weirwood trees within distance for Bloodraven to use the weirnet to see people use it.

However, the door itself is made of weirwood and has a face, can it be used in the weirnet? I don't think so, personally, because it has no roots.

I think the weirwood door has to be part of the weirnet otherwise how does it know who are the sworn brothers it should be letting through? (I'm one of those that thinks the door would not work for black brothers who swore the oaths in the Sept, just the ones who swore to the old gods).

[King Doug]

My thoughts on that were that in the context of dead people walking around 2 hours is a long time. The absolute minimum Coldhands has been dead is the few weeks he was travelling with Bran and company - which is a very long time for a dead person to be walking. If it's Benjen and he's been dead for a couple of years that satifies me as 'long ago'.

I think the weirwood door has to be part of the weirnet otherwise how does it know who are the sworn brothers it should be letting through? (I'm one of those that thinks the door would not work for black brothers who swore the oaths in the Sept, just the ones who swore to the old gods).

Your first point about the 'long ago' I disagree with, but you already know that. I just think Leaf's conception of time is much different than humans. Thus making 'long ago' for the two species completely different. But I can see your argument as well.

About the Weirwood door, you're might be right about that. It certainly makes sense. But who knows? :dunno:

[jarl the climber]

I don't recall any direct references about why Benjen took the black.

I've assumed it to be simply 3rd brother/conflicting heir syndrome

(Even though Ned took over Winterfell w/ all the other deaths in the family, I'm surprised this would be deemed necessary, Kevan L. and other non-heir siblings didn't really have to do that )

Then I started wondering if the allusions to the wild Stark in aDwD, some of the negative seeming info I attributed immediately to Ned's older brother could possibly have been referring to the younger brother, who then took the black to absolve his sins. Or at least that Benjen's story may have its own painful origins.

Maybe its a far out idea, but I'd love to know any confirmed details anyone has regarding Benjen's reasons for taking the black or if it is written in the books anywhere.

I think he joined because his pecker did not work.

[all_Freys_must_die]

Lyanna could have confided in Benjen about Rhaegar, and Benjen blames himself for keeping silent since that silence probably led to the death of Lyanna, Rickard and Brandon Stark.

Nail on the head right there methinks....

[all_Freys_must_die]

No way man, the South couldn't care less about the Wall. Alliser Thorne is there because he fought for the Targaryens and remained loyal. He was given a choice, death or the Wall. Samwell Tarly, seriously? He didn't choose to be on the wall. The only two that might fit your argument are Mallister and Pyke. But those two are as far North as the South gets. and Pyke is a bastard.

haha how's old Thorney gonna feel when he finds out that 'Lord Snow the bastard' is his King? Prolly won't live that long but i'd like to see/read the grovelling he's got to do

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Be ready for "da bomb", I've worked out a brand new theory.

Benjen bedded Ashara Dayne at Harrenal. "Then what?" you might ask and.... here it comes:

Their child is Gerold “Darkstar” Dayne. :eek:

• He is older than Jon
  
• He is "the most dangerous man in the realm" as said by Doran Martell, because he is part of the R+L = J secret. He might even know the full story tanks to Benjen.
  
• He is a mix of Stark and Dayne traits: black/silver hair, dark purple (almost black) eyes.
  
• "Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night". Benjen is in the Night's Watch.
  
• Ned asked Benjen to take the black because he dishonored Ashara (Ned loved her) and knew Jon's real parents, since he helped Lyanna in her quest for Rhaegar’s love.
  
• Benjen and Jon's dialogue in AGOT: "You might want to father a bastard of your own before coming to the Wall, you don't know what you are going to give up" (or something like this). WHY on earth should someone without children say something like this?
  

Question: does Benjen have black eyes, an aquiline nose, high cheekbones or a strong jaw? Can't remember, but Darkstar looks this way.

Cheers :laugh:

Whoa, you just blew my mind LOL. That would be cool, maybe Ashara threw herself from the tower (supposedly) after Benjen took the black.

Of course Jon takes this as a compliment asks to join

"Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully, 'The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon.'"

Then something interesting happens. Jon references Daeren Targaryen being a boy conqueror younger than him. "The Young Dragon was one of his heroes."

Then the point of bastardness comes up.

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said, "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Jon felt the anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put his hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."

I love this excerpt. Ben acts both as an uncle but also fatherly and brotherly towards Jon all in one. And he raises a ton of subtextual questions.

What is the price he would pay for saying the oath?

Could Jon technically father a bastard? Would all his children be bastards because of his bastardy? I know this has been discussed elsewhere. some clarification please

He certainly studies Jon pretty thoroughly and seems to be regarding him as more than just a bastard in my opinion.

Reread the first Jon chapter and see what you think.

I think Benjen Stark will be our caveat to Jon's parentage story. Whether he is alive or dead, I don't think we've seen the last of him.

Thanks for book excerpts great info!

I think based on some compelling arguments here we can drop the Benjen=Coldhands theory. The NK (as mentioned above great post btw) seems a much more likely candidate. i doubt "long ago" is up for interpretation.

[ledlevee]

I also doubt "long ago" means anything other than hundreds of thousands of years ago. Leaf called humans children, she makes it clear that her concept of time is much longer than humans. So if she says "long ago", it's not going to mean a couple of years ago. To her, a couple of years is probably like a day.

[bloodymime]

I also doubt "long ago" means anything other than hundreds of thousands of years ago. Leaf called humans children, she makes it clear that her concept of time is much longer than humans. So if she says "long ago", it's not going to mean a couple of years ago. To her, a couple of years is probably like a day.

The thing here and it's stupid but unless they kept him on ice until recently the guy would be missing stuff, a lot of stuff. From what we've seen of wights they have no kind of regenerative ability and Coldhands gets in the middle of it when it comes to fighting so unless he's a special case and they glue everything back on as it comes off he'd be looking pretty bad after a few decades let alone centuries. Outside of the possiblities I mentioned of course.

[kaukula]

Interesting theory with Benjen and Ashara, but I still think it is too convulted.

Perhaps Benjen just went to the wall because of tradition for younger sons from honorable houses. Just like that younger Royce in AGOT prologue did.