Why did Benjen take the black?

[Robin Of House Hill]

I believe Benjen took the black because he knew of Jon's true parentage.

I've always thought he was Jon's father.

[Braavosi Sealady]

By the way, in which book is all this about Rhaegar and the Laughing Tree?

The story of KoLT is told to Bran by the Reeds in "A Storm of Swords" (Cp 24 - Bran POV).

[willowbark]

I've always thought he was Jon's father.

I know this is an unlikely scenario, but just in case there is any room for speculation - could he have fathered Sansa? Maybe Catelyn used him to get back at Ned?

[King Doug]

That might be some crazy theory I picked up here. But I still do believe it's in the books there needs to be a Stark in Winterfell and at the Wall at all times.

Not an uncommon theory.

Personally I subscribe to the 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell' theory. I think there are magical implications to it.

[King Doug]

I just think he took the black because the North (especially the Starks) still think that is a path of high honor. He didn't really have anything to gain in the world of Westeros, unless he married a highborn lady and inherited her father's lands. But when Ned returned from the war, Robb was born. That meant Ned had an heir. Benjen was the 3rd son of Rickard afterall, maybe joining the NW was his plan all along.

[anraeful]

Well obviously the reason must be a plot point, as otherwise GRRM would have said why (he has explained the motivations of other characters before after all). Either it'll be something new that no one would even think of, or one of the theories mentioned here but with further information. I too think it might be something about Lyanna, or more specifically the Harrenhall tourney. I think mentioning the black brother talking there was significant.

Also, does it actually say in the text that Benjen was the closest to Lyanna? They would have been close in age, but then all 4 were relatively close in age. For some reason I had always imagined her being close with Brandon, being both wild 'wolfs blood' types, and I've always imagined that he would encourage her with swordplay etc. Of course, no text evidence, just my imaginings of how winterfell would have been back then.

Now I think about it however, and sorry this is a little off topic, Lyanna indicated to Ned that Robert would not be faithful to her "love is sweet but it will not change a man"... and ADWD brought to light some not so honorable parts of Brandon. Perhaps explains how a girl brought up by a strict, cold father and spent the later years at winterfell during a long winter could have wisdom about such matters. Maybe she wasnt that friendly with Brandon after all... :dunno:

[mediterraneo]

I just think he took the black because the North ... still think that is a path of high honor.

Hello.

I was thinking something similar but...

We have at least three Umber, there were Bolton bastards over there, I dont know how many Glover are there.

Even if the Mormont have a lot of females in this generation, they are the only ones to have a man in the Watch. An old man, too.

We saw more southern knights in the watch than northeners, despite the claims of "remembering".

In the great Houses we have a Royce, a Tarly, a Thorne, even a Targaryen (or two) against two Stark and a Mormont.

And we know of another Mormont who preferred to live as an exile than to serve in the Watch.

One could conclude that being a watchman is a tradition found in southern Houses whose name begins with 'T'.

So, I feel that there must be a special reason for Benjen to be in the Watch.

Cheers!

PS: No, I feel that even in Jon's example vocation was not decisive. It wasn't truly personal and deep, at first. He truly decided to follow that path to the fullest of the consecuences only after a time, well after his formal oath. Between escape and his encounte with the wights, I'd say. Jon was simply following the steps prepared for him by his family. Catelyn wanted it. Robb in a way wanted it. Ned approved. Her mother let Sansa know that this was inevitable. Arya and the others were too young. Roderick Cassel approved. There was a good reasn to send Jon there, and probably Ned and Benjen shared the thruth about it.

[koststerg]

I like the idea that the Starks for some reason have to be represented in the Wall if possible but I also have an other mad idea!

Reagar has told Leanna about the song of ice and fire and about the Ptwp and how he will face a threat against the world and that their son might be one of the 3 heads of the dragon (along with his other 2 children). Leanna believes him and also (because of Old Nan's stories and the traditions of the North) realizes that the nature of the threat is located beyond the Wall, maybe in the form of the Others (I know that this is a LONG jump .....). As she believes that Jon will have to face this alone now that his half brother and sister are dead she asks from Ned to tell Benjen to take the black and help Jon when the time comes.

[Tini]

The Southern knights didn't join the Watch voluntarily. They were punished for crimes, and sent to the Wall as punishment. I had the impression that many ended up at the Wall due to political intrigue.

There seems to be a lot more political intrigue going on in the South than in the North, which might explain why there are fewer Northern noble houses represented in the Watch.

[King Doug]

Hello.

I was thinking something similar but...

We have at least three Umber, there were Bolton bastards over there, I dont know how many Glover are there.

Even if the Mormont have a lot of females in this generation, they are the only ones to have a man in the Watch. An old man, too.

We saw more southern knights in the watch than northeners, despite the claims of "remembering".

In the great Houses we have a Royce, a Tarly, a Thorne, even a Targaryen (or two) against two Stark and a Mormont.

And we know of another Mormont who preferred to live as an exile than to serve in the Watch.

One could conclude that being a watchman is a tradition found in southern Houses whose name begins with 'T'.

So, I feel that there must be a special reason for Benjen to be in the Watch.

Cheers!

PS: No, I feel that even in Jon's example vocation was not decisive. It wasn't truly personal and deep, at first. He truly decided to follow that path to the fullest of the consecuences only after a time, well after his formal oath. Between escape and his encounte with the wights, I'd say. Jon was simply following the steps prepared for him by his family. Catelyn wanted it. Robb in a way wanted it. Ned approved. Her mother let Sansa know that this was inevitable. Arya and the others were too young. Roderick Cassel approved. There was a good reasn to send Jon there, and probably Ned and Benjen shared the thruth about it.

No way man, the South couldn't care less about the Wall. Alliser Thorne is there because he fought for the Targaryens and remained loyal. He was given a choice, death or the Wall. Samwell Tarly, seriously? He didn't choose to be on the wall. The only two that might fit your argument are Mallister and Pyke. But those two are as far North as the South gets. and Pyke is a bastard.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Lyanna could have confided in Benjen about Rhaegar, and Benjen blames himself for keeping silent since that silence probably led to the death of Lyanna, Rickard and Brandon Stark.

:agree: This... If Benjen had knowledge of R+L but let his father/brother ride off to thier deaths while keeping a secret either, out of loyalty to Lyanna, or b/c of a promise he made her seems like a strong motivation. On a side note: Benjen is awesome! :cool4:

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

I read the Nights Watch as this

Ancient honorable position when the North was a separate kingdom, after the Targaryen's take over the kingdoms and unify them, over time it becomes an alternate way of punishment, loses some of its honor.

In the North it is still considered historically dignified (in reality it has decayed, trading knights and nobles, for rapists & murderers and is found in a diminished state)

We the readers see it that way too, because our favorable POV's, from GoT regarding the NW, are from the North, the Starks or Tyrion who is honest about NW, but also amazed by the Wall and senses the wonder of it all.

There is no statement of a Stark needs to be in the Nights Watch only "There needs to be a Stark @ Winterfell" which is why Benjen (and youth) stayed home for the War, as Bran was thrust also into that role, as Lord in aCoK.

Benjen's decision apparently is important enough to be something GRRM will not discuss, and the expectation is the future books will address it, so I don't think its honor, but redemption or repentance that he joined for.

People have also suggested Benjen knows Jon Snows parentage, yet if this means R+L = JS then it seems strange he or Ned would think taking the Black was a good choice- protecting him from Baratheon because he is a Targ?

I mean imagine Ned (or Benjen returned) lives, he reconnects w/ Jon for that conversation he promised and then he tells him - your actually a Targaryan heir to the Iron Throne, but you took the Black so that doesn't matter? Doesn't sound right.

[bloodymime]

People have also suggested Benjen knows Jon Snows parentage, yet if this means R+L = JS then it seems strange he or Ned would think taking the Black was a good choice- protecting him from Baratheon because he is a Targ?

I mean imagine Ned (or Benjen returned) lives, he reconnects w/ Jon for that conversation he promised and then he tells him - your actually a Targaryan heir to the Iron Throne, but you took the Black so that doesn't matter? Doesn't sound right.

I don't like Ned not having any plan for Jon but while I don't think this it's technically possible he could think it's a good idea for Jon to go to the Wall because his getting married and suddenly producing children with Targ features would be awkward. Not likely but technically possible, it's Cat's pov when they're talking of it.

Lyanna might not have wanted Jon to go south and play games of thrones. Something I would think is likely.

Also that promised conversation is in the show not the books. He says he'll talk to Jon of the Night's Watch but we never seem them talk besides the finding of the wolf pups.

[Tini]

Why would Ned not allow Jon to take the black if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

Ned did not hide an heir to throne, hoping (and plotting) that the heir would one day ascend to the throne. Not as Varys and Illyrio hid Aegon, or Ser Willem hid Dany and Viserys. Ned hid his nephew, making sure that his sister's son would get a chance to grow up. It was not Ned's intention that this nephew would one day rise against his beloved friend, Robert Baratheon, and create unrest in Westeros.

Ned did not send Jon to the Watch to keep him safe from the Baratheons. He had to find a place for Jon, and Jon had expressed interest in joining the Watch. There was no dishonor in that as far as Ned Stark was concerned, his own brother had joined as well.

I think he regretted not talking to Jon before his execution in AGOT. He may have always intended to tell Jon about his mother some day, and the opportunity was lost.

[jon rr stark]

That might be some crazy theory I picked up here. But I still do believe it's in the books there needs to be a Stark in Winterfell and at the Wall at all times.

no ned says in the tv series that there has always been a stark on the wall not that there needs to be and it doesnt mean there is always one just that there have been throughout history starks at the wall

[Maia]

In the books there hadn't been a Stark on the Wall for at least 3 generations prior to Benjen joining. Lord Rickard was the only child of his parents who lived to adulthood, his father Lord Edwyle only had a sister who married into the Vale (and to a younger son of the junior Royce branch, no less - I'd love to know what happened there!) and before that there were 4 brothers neither of whom joined NW luckily for House Stark, because they were all killed over a relatively short period, with only the youngest leaving 2 kids mentioned above. The next Dunk and Egg novella is scheduled to take place in the aftermath, IIRC, when widows of the 4 brothers ruled the North in the name of the infant Edwyle.

There may have been Stark bastards on the Wall during that period, of course.

Also, the "unneeded extra" explanation doesn't work for Benjen, because at the end of the war he was Ned's only surviving brother and Robb was an infant. Stark succession was hardly assured at that point and Ned could have really used help, keeping track of and projecting his rule over such a vast territory. Particularly since he seems to have lost all of his friends/really trusted vassals at the ToJ. I bet that if there were 2 Starks to personally visit (and discreetly inspect) the bannermen, Umbers and Boltons couldn't have gotten away with their problematic practices/nefarious shit respectively.

Neither does "honorable northern tradition" work, since all the other noble northern Houses don't seem to send extra males to the Wall. Not second sons, who all seem to be useful about the estates, not third sons, not even cousins. Which, in case of Karstarks lead to problems, but whatever.

It never made sense to me, actually. North does need the Wall, unlike everybody else the North does routinely profit from NW's protection against the wildlings. Decline of NW makes the North suffer, even without the Others. Yet North's share of NW's recruits seems to have sunk as much as the south's. In fact, vast majority of the NW members are southerners.

Additionally, Ned didn't do anything whatsoever to try to replenish the NW's ranks during his 2 victorious wars and neither did Robb, while he was still winning.

Anyway, I'd say Bran's vision of Winterfell in the past gives us the first clue. In it, Benjen and Lyanna are sparring with sticks. Clearly, he was the one who trained her in secret and in defiance of their father's wishes.

We have also learned in ADwD that not just Ned, but also Brandon were fostered out. Which left the 2 of the youngest together in Winterfell and made them very close. Lord Rickard was probably out and about the North a lot, he seemed to be widowed, he had no female relatives, so no woman with authority to decisively quash Lyanna was resident... and the rest is history.

Personally, I strongly suspect that when Lyanna absconded with Rhaegar, she charged Benjen with informing their family and explaining the situation. But for whatever reason (Brandon just wouldn't listen? He was delayed and rumor reached Brandon first?) Benjen failed in his task and tragedy followed. He felt himself responsible and joined NW to exculpate his guilt.

[bloodymime]

Nice post, agreed it doesn't seem to make sense with all the recent history of the Starks Benjen would just take off for the Wall as soon as Ned comes home. Perhaps later in life when things are more stable, something like the Old Bear but not at that time.

There do seem to be contradictions, why isn't Karstark offered the Wall, perhaps more importantly why aren't his men? To argue with myself perhaps being all the way down in the Riverlands in the middle of a war Robb didn't think it was feasible.

Interesting idea of Lyanna charging Benjen with telling why she leaves. I like it at first thought in a broad sense.

[King Doug]

<snip>

Good stuff. I always figured him not having a role in Winterfell was a simple excuse and didn't necessarily believe it. As an ardent Benjen supporter/fan I hope there is more to his story of why he joined the NW. I don't think he took off for the Wall immediately when Ned returned from the Rebellion, I assumed at least a couple years passed.

Benjen's whole story arc is an enigma so far. I hope we will learn more, and he's just not dead.

[bloodymime]

Good stuff. I always figured him not having a role in Winterfell was a simple excuse and didn't necessarily believe it. As an ardent Benjen supporter/fan I hope there is more to his story of why he joined the NW. I don't think he took off for the Wall immediately when Ned returned from the Rebellion, I assumed at least a couple years passed.

Benjen's whole story arc is an enigma so far. I hope we will learn more, and he's just not dead.

Depends on how you take the SSM's I guess, apparently some people don't take them seriously but it's been asked of Martin and he answered that Benjen left within a couple of months of Ned returning.

"

6) When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately?

It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW."

http://www.westeros..../Month/2005/05/

He also has said that his reason will be revealed eventually.

[King Doug]

Depends on how you take the SSM's I guess, apparently some people don't take them seriously but it's been asked of Martin and he answered that Benjen left within a couple of months of Ned returning.

"

6) When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately?

It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW."

http://www.westeros..../Month/2005/05/

He also has said that his reason will be revealed eventually.

Well all right then, can't say that I have perused the hundreds of pages of SSM's yet