From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IV

[ElizaMartell]

I think her entire series arc has been, among other things, a hard education in politics. I, too, hope that it's about to pay dividends.

I think it will pay dividends in a way that people would not expect. I am not sure about grand schemes or marriage alliances but perhaps even the simple move of not playing the way Littlefinger wants could be a start. That or even find a way of manipulating the Greyjoys or Freys. :P

[Kittykatknits]

It would be awesome if Sansa could rule as regent for Bran or Rickon Stark, or, Jon+Dany's baby (assuming they die). She could either pull a "Mormont" and keep her Stark surname to pass onto her babies, or she could take Clegane. Sandor would raise the kiddies while Sansa ruled as Lady of Winterfell, or as Queen Regent of the North, or Queen Regent of the 7 Kingdoms, or whatever is left of them.

Then, when Sansa is finished as regent (her brothers are 16, or her niece or nephew turns 16), she and Sandor could either remain at Winterfell (there's room), or go back and refurnish the Clegane keep, which is by law his. And do some magic wicca voodoo hoodoo santeria cleansing rituals to get all the bad mojo out. :)

That's way more complex than Sansa becoming Lady Clegane and having a lot of Sandor-babies and just being a mother.

Can someone clarify on when Sansa would be able to keep the Stark name and pass it to her kids IF she does marry. My understanding is that this would be possible only if all male heirs are dead and she is the sole remaining Stark. The kids would then be able to keep the Stark name. Wasn't that one of the points of the Bael the Bard story? Anyone able to refresh my memory of this?

I'd love to see Sansa as regent in WF. Actually, my ideal endgame as that her and Arya rebuild WF together, with her serving as regent until Rickon comes of age. Then, she can leave or stay, whichever she desires. But, I do think Sansa will want a home of her own someday.

I'm thinking whatever Sansa's experience in the Vale she will become more jaded than she's ever been and all the lot more at being capable of pulling the strings behind the scene. I don't see her as being a Varys figure but in a very morbid way actually becoming somewhat of a child Bealish and Cat could have had. Absolutely captivating but a small-time chess master. Nothing as grand as Bealish/Varys but someone more capable of tying a region in knots. Which she could do to the North in order to bow to Rickon/Bran/Jons will.

Ah, I see. So with LF's political genius and Cat's political savvy, Sansa could rally the North to her brother's causes, House by House?

That would be a very interesting role for her, actually. Do you see her ever marrying in this scenario?

I like your conversation about Sansa and her role as a player. In the last thread, I had talked about the QoT and her role as a game player. I think it is important that she only does so to protect and further her families interests. In fact, I think that is one of the main reasons why I believe she was brought in to Sansa's storyline. If you think about it, the QoT did not do anything with Sansa that Margarery could not have done herself. But, adding this particular character in to Sansa's storyline provides another perspective not just on how to wield power but on why you would want to do so. In this regard, I can see Sansa using her skills (words, grace, courtesy, etc.) to secure power for Rickon and House Stark. I don't think she has any interest in wielding power the way that Varys or LF do.

Also, the idea of her becoming the child that LF and Catelyn could have had makes me feel sick to my stomach.

This will seriously depend on what the situation in Kings Landing though. I had this common held belief on this forum (not by any one you lovely smart people of course!*) that Tyrion will arrive with Danys dragon and Sansa will dramatically fall at his feet and stay married to him for their houses? WTF? First of all, the tension between their houses wouldn't be fixed by marriage (Tyrion even said so) and secondly, this takes the assumption Dany will be silly enough to belief she can bind Northern loyalty by a force marriage being upheld.

I've heard variations of this theme too. Often heard is that he will save her from the Vale or that Dany will uphold the marriage as a reward for his sevice in helping her win the throne. If, and this is a big if, Dany does sit the Iron Throne one day, I just don't see this. Dany has been sold in to marriage once and then entered a loveless political marriage a second time with Hizzio whathisface. I just don't see this scenario playing out. Again, if she does sit the IT someday, Dany would be in a very unique position to bring about positive change for women but forcing Sansa back in to the marriage would be a step back from that I would think.

[Queen of Winter]

If it's okay, I just wanted to repost my response to Valkyrja's post (which brash also posted in this new thread), it was at the end of the last thread and I think there may be some clues to Sansa's story in it, and perhaps it points to where she might be going/what's happening on her journey.

I could be going crazy, but I think I remember somewhere that in the tv series, they've made a conscious decision regarding Sansa's wardrobe (I think they said it was a 'hint'?) to have her dresses decorated with dragonflies (she also wears a dragonfly necklace iirc). What the heck would dragonflies have to do with Sansa's storyline??? I thought to myself. At first, I thought perhaps it was a hint that Sansa would becoming involved with/married to a Targaryen. But then I remembered......dragonflies are *not* dragons.....

I was re-reading the Dunk and Egg stories, and the imagery of the dragonfly is one that comes up throughout The Hedge Knight. In the beginning of the story, Dunk sits under his elm tree musing that a dragonfly is nothing like a dragon. Then, at the end when Dunk is speaking to Prince Maekar regarding whether or not he should come live in Summerhall with Egg, or instead take Egg on the road with him, to live roughly amongst lower ranking landed knights, hedge knights, and smallfolk:

Quote

What shall it be, Dunk? he asked himself Dragonflies or dragons?

Dunk feels strongly that it would be good for Egg to live amongst the people, in disguise, and flat out tells Maekar that it will be in Egg's best interest to do so (look what happen with Aerion who was so pampered as prince of the realm, he notes):

Quote

Maekar Targaryen, Prince of Summerhall, reguarded Dunk of Fleabottom for a long time, his jaw working beneath his silvery beard. Finally he turned and walked away, never speaking a word. Dunk heard him riding off with his men. When they were gone, there was no sound but the faint thrum of the dragonfly's wings as it skimmed across the water.

So, here we have dragonflies vs. dragons seeming to represent a choice between two paths: that of highborn life, and that of lowerborn life.

But it seems to mean more than that as well, as seen in regards to what we know about Ser Duncan the Small, known as the Prince of Dragonflies. From the wiki:

Quote

Prince Duncan fell in love with a woman known as Jenny of Oldstones and loved her so much he gave up his crown for her and married her against his father's wishes. It was possible that after this he became known as the Prince of Dragonflies.

So here we have the dragonfly imagery being taken further, to show that Egg's own son later decided to reject the crown because of his love for Jenny of Oldstones.

I would not even have brought this up if I didn't remember the thing about tv!Sansa's wardrobe supposedly being some sort of meaning. I could be totally reaching here, but I think it could be taken to signify that Sansa might do something similar in the future.

From ASoIaF text itself, we know that Sansa loves the story of Queen Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight (which is a story of forbidden love) at the beginning of the series, but I'm not sure how she thinks of it at present. The reality behind that song was quite dark, imo, with Naerys quite a sad, mistreated figure, whom Aemon loved but did not seem able to fully protect. Not sure if it represents Sansa's situation at KL, or if it represents more generally how naive Sansa was in having that song as her favourite, due to not really understanding the true story behind the song.

This is something that I've thought about for quite some time, and I'm glad to see someone else bring this up.

In your post you mention dragonflies....In myths and lore dragonflies are said to be tied to the realm of dreams, as they are often associated with water. They are also associated change--which is represented by air--(since air currents themselves constantly change, thus changing the insects' direction). So perhaps there is something to think about here, some symbolism that pertains to Sansa's story......

And I'm sooooo glad someone else caught the part about Sansa's necklace in the TV series!

Also I wanted to add, that dragonflies are often confused with damselflies, as they are very similar in appearance .( I just thought it a neat play on words as you could say Sansa is a "damsel in distress"). :P

[jons nissa]

I'm thinking whatever Sansa's experience in the Vale she will become more jaded than she's ever been and all the lot more at being capable of pulling the strings behind the scene. I don't see her as being a Varys figure but in a very morbid way actually becoming somewhat of a child Bealish and Cat could have had. Absolutely captivating but a small-time chess master. Nothing as grand as Bealish/Varys but someone more capable of tying a region in knots. Which she could do to the North in order to bow to Rickon/Bran/Jons will.

Hmm, you're probably right there as it seems like Riverrun will end up in flames, possibly in a RW 2.0 type deal. She could go straight to the North if that's the case. The Northerners seem to be loyal to all Starks, so she should really capitalize on her family name for that. I don't think any Northmen are going to kidnap her and take her back to KL, but the Boltons might. She probably shouldn't go there without a substantial backup force from the Vale.

hmmm. this is an interesting theory for sansa future. sansa will most likely have to leave the vale at some point and while it would make sense to try for the riverlands and her mother's home, it will most likely be ravaged (based on what we've already seen). and while i would say that heading south is better since winter has arrived in westeros, from dany's visions in the hotu we know that king's landing will be decimated as well. so that leaves winterfell although i'm not sure what's left of the keep at this time or much further south. is this what grrm meant when he said dorne would play a larger role in the next books?

[jons nissa]

Can someone clarify on when Sansa would be able to keep the Stark name and pass it to her kids IF she does marry. My understanding is that this would be possible only if all male heirs are dead and she is the sole remaining Stark. The kids would then be able to keep the Stark name. Wasn't that one of the points of the Bael the Bard story? Anyone able to refresh my memory of this?

so far, we only have the tale of bael the bard as an example of passing on the stark name via the mother. but that stark wasn't married, iirc. i'm not sure why the child wasn't called snow... i think it was because there were no other heirs. i don't think it could happen if she were married. it's doesn't even happen in the 21st century (children get both parent names) let alone medieval times.

[Kittykatknits]

Ah, thank you for replying to my martial arts nerd post! I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I also agree with you that I wouldn't want Sansa to choose The Hound: brutal, crass, rude, nasty, mean, and above all angry. If they end up together in a romantic way, I hope that Sandor's time on the QI is like a long time with intense psychotherapy, so that he will still be Sandor, just a psychologically healthy Sandor. If Sandor remains the same person he was in KL, then no, I think Sansa deserves better than that in a mate.

You're welcome.

Actually, I am a supporter of SanSan. :) I think he is all those things that you list and for that, the relationship is problematic. I think it would be a burden to Sansa in some ways and I would likely expect that she would always be the emotionally stronger one in the relationship. If, and when, it does happen, my hope is that Sansa understands all this and then makes a conscious decision to choose him. I don't want it to be a lust-filled, first love, whatever you want to call it, type of decision. I'm going to contradict myself and say two separate things but why not...I think there is no one good enough for Sansa. I also very much want Sansa to choose whoever her partner in life is, when that time comes. If that is Sandor, then I will be out waving the flags, throwing confetti, and crossing my fingers for a long happy life together. I support it because, from the available evidence that I see on the page, it is what she wants. Now, if she meets Harry, and for some reason it turns out that he is truly her One True Love, then I would support her in that decision too. But, no doubt, as of now, I'm firmly on Team SanSan. Hopefully, this makes some sense. :)

[ElizaMartell]

Also, the idea of her becoming the child that LF and Catelyn could have had makes me feel sick to my stomach.

It is rather sickening isn't it? Its not so much Sansa becoming a subversion of her archetype but Sansa becoming a character in a dark fairy tale. The same sort of think happened to Arya and the freedom she first felt when playing with swords and learning her dances. Both of their fantasies and dreams are subvert and will in turn have to become 'monsters' of their previous selves to survive. And who can blame them? Winter is here, and to maintain some of their old selves the may have to do ugly things.

I've heard variations of this theme too. Often heard is that he will save her from the Vale or that Dany will uphold the marriage as a reward for his sevice in helping her win the throne. If, and this is a big if, Dany does sit the Iron Throne one day, I just don't see this. Dany has been sold in to marriage once and then entered a loveless political marriage a second time with Hizzio whathisface. I just don't see this scenario playing out. Again, if she does sit the IT someday, Dany would be in a very unique position to bring about positive change for women but forcing Sansa back in to the marriage would be a step back from that I would think.

The only reason that Dany may want the marriage to continue is due to the hatred of Starks. Nonetheless, if she knows how much of this would insure the dislike of Northern men (in winter) of all times, then she may stand down.

But yeah. Sansa isn't there to be Tyrion's trophy wife. And I hate the idea that she somehow has to stop being 'shallow' and love Tyrion. Its just so...urgh.

:stillsick:

Then again I don't like SanSan either. I find both relationships really problematic for reasons that aren't appropriate for this thread as a mod just mentioned.

[Silmarien]

Can someone clarify on when Sansa would be able to keep the Stark name and pass it to her kids IF she does marry. My understanding is that this would be possible only if all male heirs are dead and she is the sole remaining Stark. The kids would then be able to keep the Stark name. Wasn't that one of the points of the Bael the Bard story? Anyone able to refresh my memory of this?

The lady Mormonts seem to have trueborn children but they say they "mate with bears" which I think is code for "we marry common men and keep our family name and enable female inheritance". It could also mean they marry cousins, but I like my version better! ;)

Sansa could marry a common man, or any minor noble who would willingly trade his surname for "Stark" (Sandor might, he hated his family, and there are probably lots of commoners who'd adore the chance to marry Sansa Stark), and thus their children would be Starks.

The third way is as you already stated, if Bran and Rickon are dead, then whoever marries Sansa gets the Stark surname and the heirs would be Starks.

I'd love to see Sansa as regent in WF. Actually, my ideal endgame as that her and Arya rebuild WF together, with her serving as regent until Rickon comes of age. Then, she can leave or stay, whichever she desires. But, I do think Sansa will want a home of her own someday.

Aw, I'd love this!

I like your conversation about Sansa and her role as a player. In the last thread, I had talked about the QoT and her role as a game player. I think it is important that she only does so to protect and further her families interests. In fact, I think that is one of the main reasons why I believe she was brought in to Sansa's storyline. If you think about it, the QoT did not do anything with Sansa that Margarery could not have done herself. But, adding this particular character in to Sansa's storyline provides another perspective not just on how to wield power but on why you would want to do so. In this regard, I can see Sansa using her skills (words, grace, courtesy, etc.) to secure power for Rickon and House Stark. I don't think she has any interest in wielding power the way that Varys or LF do.

Also, the idea of her becoming the child that LF and Catelyn could have had makes me feel sick to my stomach.

Ah, I agree, I don't want her to be the literal child of LF and Cat. More like I want her to adopt their political savvy then move on from LF. I'd love to see Sansa as another QoT for the Starks!

I've heard variations of this theme too. Often heard is that he will save her from the Vale or that Dany will uphold the marriage as a reward for his sevice in helping her win the throne. If, and this is a big if, Dany does sit the Iron Throne one day, I just don't see this. Dany has been sold in to marriage once and then entered a loveless political marriage a second time with Hizzio whathisface. I just don't see this scenario playing out. Again, if she does sit the IT someday, Dany would be in a very unique position to bring about positive change for women but forcing Sansa back in to the marriage would be a step back from that I would think.

I think Dany would let Sansa choose, not just gift her to Tyrion. Dany just isn't that kind of Queen, IMHO.

[Silmarien]

hmmm. this is an interesting theory for sansa future. sansa will most likely have to leave the vale at some point and while it would make sense to try for the riverlands and her mother's home, it will most likely be ravaged (based on what we've already seen). and while i would say that heading south is better since winter has arrived in westeros, from dany's visions in the hotu we know that king's landing will be decimated as well. so that leaves winterfell although i'm not sure what's left of the keep at this time or much further south. is this what grrm meant when he said dorne would play a larger role in the next books?

Perhaps Sansa's role is to rally the Vale and Northern Houses near it to fight in the War for the Dawn 2.0?

[bloodymime]

Actually, he is there right when she gets her period. It happens on the rooftop scene. She is standing there, feels a sharp pain and then says that she would have fallen but then suddenly a hand reaches out and grabs her wrist. He is literally there when she gets it. It's different in the show as we see him standing over her bloody bed the next morning. But, the conversation that occurs on the rooftop is also in the same episode, just in a condensed fashion.

Brashcandy corrected me on this as well and I will certainly defer to you ladies on this subject I can't pretend any knowledge of.

[jons nissa]

Sansa could marry a common man, or any minor noble who would willingly trade his surname for "Stark" (Sandor might, he hated his family, and there are probably lots of commoners who'd adore the chance to marry Sansa Stark), and thus their children would be Starks.

The third way is as you already stated, if Bran and Rickon are dead, then whoever marries Sansa gets the Stark surname and the heirs would be Starks.

Aw, I'd love this!

hi silmarien,

can i ask what you are basing this on? is it the way the mormont family line works or is there somthing else?

[ElizaMartell]

Perhaps Sansa's role is to rally the Vale and Northern Houses near it to fight in the War for the Dawn 2.0?

Nah, that would require strategic military understanding that even with Baelish's lessons she would not understand. She could probably be an element that ignites a War for the Dawn 2.0 with supporters rallying afterwards?

[Caro99]

Brash, you brought this up in the previous thread:

I think we've discussed it before briefly, but do you guys realise that in every single incident connected to Sansa's sexual development or awakening, or when she's in sexual danger, Sandor is either present or mentioned or thought about?

1. In ACOK, he tells her that one day he'll have a "song" from her.

2. He saves her in the riot where she would have been sexually assaulted.

3. He's present for her first period.

4. The blackwater night that spawns the unkiss memory

5. Wondering for a brief moment if Lothor Brune was Sandor when he rescues her from Marillion

6. The dream after Marillion tries to rape her where he replaces Tyrion in the marriage bed

7. Thinking of him kissing her when SW does

8. Thinking of him when Randa asks her if she knows what goes on in the marriage bed

Basically, would it be reasonable to theorise that Martin is planning on Sandor being the one to take her virginity, or is he merely meant to act as the catalyst for her sexual awakening?

Additionally, I've always felt that her bedding scene with Tyrion - where she could derive no desire from the pity she felt - was meant to contrast with the opposite reaction Sandor is able to inspire in her.

I do think that sandor may be the one sansa chooses or would be prefer at this point in the books, to lose her maidenhead to/with. For one, she’s had plenty of time to think about the “one day I’ll have a song from you, whether you will it or not” thing. She had been sort of thinking about it because when she is at the fingers, apart from thinking about sandor when she is hearing lysa and LF making “love”, and having the old dog connection, and lothor brune trust into the bargain, when she has her “erotic” dream we see her accepting Sandor into her bed, and he is also bringing up the song (or kiss) which I think sansa would now willingly give to him. and when in the dream Tyrion changes into sandor, it is just another clear reference of how she will never be able to connect with the former, the way she can with sandor. After joff is married at Baelor’s sept I think Sansa feels Tyrion looking at her strangely, as if he wanted something from her, but sansa can’t bring herself to open up to him and give him what he want. Whereas with sandor, in his most broken up moment, while she didn’t exactly know what was happening at the time, she still managed out of instinct to comfort him, and let’s not forget when she also comforted him after he told her of his burns… and also, it may not mean much, but sansa does think of sandor in the middle of her wedding, just as her husband is kissing her, so… I don’t know how it would happen, and I’m sure giving up her virginity to sandor may not be the wisest course. It would be harder to get the annulment from Tyrion if she is already bedded, and if she has to marry for political gain later on for Winterfell and the north, being already “spoiled” could be bad for her, but do I still think sansa would be willing to have sandor be the first man she is with (regardless if they are meant to be forever together)? Yes, I firmly think she would.

I haven't finished reading the last thread yet, so if the points i stated have already been brought up, well, sorry :)

[1234567]

Why do I feel the Riverlands situation is going to get really bloody in the next few books? The Freys assume they are safe now but I think there's about to be a rude surprise. So if Sansa journeys there I think her life could be considered forfeit. Then again there's always the possibility she could catch Greyscales in the Vales if her luck is bad enough.

Given Griff and Tyrion and the Greyscale undercurrent in ADWD, it is interesting to reflect back on previous mentions of Greyscale and note that in AGOT the only person who mentions it is Sansa.

Ref quote from Thread 2: " The grey plague reference is very interesting. Due to the power of Kindle it appears that (as opposed to greyscale) the grey plague is only mentioned twice in AGOT and both times by Sansa: once when the maids flee from her and then in the court room. It seems the only other places it is mentioned are in AFFC, when it is talked about affecting Oldtown in the past and when Aurane Waters mentions an outbreak in Yi Ti. In ADWD, Ilyario talks about it in reference to Serra in a conversation with Tyrion and that's it. I'm not sure if this is prophetic but with Sansa's possible future connection to Aegon and her current connection to Tyrion (who may have greyscale) this maybe more than coincidence."

only none of them seemed to recognize her. Or if they did, they shied away as if she had the grey plague. Sickly Lord Gyles covered his face at her approach and feigned a fit of coughing, and when funny drunken Ser Dontos started to hail her, Ser Balon Swann whispered in his ear and he turned away.

And so many others were missing. Where had the rest of them gone? Sansa wondered. Not one of them would meet her eyes. It was as if she had become a ghost, dead before her time.

Oddly this phrase at the end also connects with the sound she thinks of as a ghost wolf in AFFC.

[Kittykatknits]

and when in the dream Tyrion changes into sandor, it is just another clear reference of how she will never be able to connect with the former, the way she can with sandor. After joff is married at Baelor’s sept I think Sansa feels Tyrion looking at her strangely, as if he wanted something from her, but sansa can’t bring herself to open up to him and give him what he want. Whereas with sandor, in his most broken up moment, while she didn’t exactly know what was happening at the time, she still managed out of instinct to comfort him, and let’s not forget when she also comforted him after he told her of his burns…

You made me realize something WRT to Tyrion. Sansa is very empathetic and we have many examples in the books where she says/does exactly the right thing with people. You mention the two incidents with Sandor. She also displays great insights when ist comes tohis fears over his brother during the rooftop conversation. But, while in KL she also says the perfect thing to the women during BBW, she inspires bravery in Tommen when his sister is sent to Dorne, she emboldens Sweetrobin to get down the mountain. Tyrion sees her speaking during the Purple Wedding and sees how naturally she says the right thing to everyone she talks to. It's natural and it's instinctive. Sansa does not think about what to say to people, she just says this. Except when it comes to Tyrion, he seems to be the lone exception to this. The conversation you are referring to happens after Joff's wedding. He is speaking of his home and love for his brother. He asks her about her love for her brothers and she thinks to herself that he looks at her as if he wants something but she has no bread to give him. Or, something similar to this. It's the only time I can think where Sansa feels at a loss on how to reach out to someone. Its very telling that this is Tyrion. It shows just how badly matched they are, and I also think shows they will never be able to connect.

[Bushido]

re: Duncan of Dragonflies

He was known as Duncan The Small. Being small in stature + bring a Targ,a dragon = dragonfly. A witty comparison.

[Caro99]

And I'm sooooo glad someone else caught the part about Sansa's necklace in the TV series!

have you also seen the dragonfly ring she's worn in both seasons? it's beautiful. i've been trying to get one like that, but no luck.. :(

just wanted to say that i agree with what some of you have posted about sansa being rickon's regent till he comes of age. hopefully arya would be back too so they can make amends and word reaches them that bran is doing "all right" up north... besides being a great ruler, (we've seen very little of alayne and how she treats with the vale lords and the hedge knights-and maybe she can keep LF's gold) i can just imagine sansa, with some of alayne's political traits, winning the northern lords over to rickon's side. and then, when rickon comes of age and hopefully the north is once more a nice place to live in, sansa can decide if she wants to remain in winterfell or the dreadfort,or go south and surprise us all by wanting to join jon or danny's court, or by going to live with a certain loyal sworn shield at his keep.

[1234567]

re: Duncan of Dragonflies

He was known as Duncan The Small. Being small in stature + bring a Targ,a dragon = dragonfly. A witty comparison.

Interesting point about Duncan the Small is that the small part was in relation to Duncan the Tall who was exceptionally tall. duncan the Small however gave up his right to the throne in order to wed the lower class Jenny of Old Stones.

[Silmarien]

hi silmarien,

can i ask what you are basing this on? is it the way the mormont family line works or is there somthing else?

It is just conjecture, really, about the Mormont family line. The females tell others that they mate with bears, yet their offspring all have the surname Mormont. Thus, they either marry cousins, or they marry common men who adopt the Mormont name and don't make a big deal about it, to allow their daughters to continue to inherit Bear Island.

If they married cousins, though, why are there no male Lord Mormonts now?

That is why I think my theory (I dunno if I made it up or read it on the forums actually) about marrying commoners (who would have no surnames) who take the name Mormont is correct. Also, that would be another reason for them to not just say "Yeah my husband is Pate Stableboy" because that would offend other nobles' sensibilities.

[Bushido]

Interesting point about Duncan the Small is that the small part was in relation to Duncan the Tall who was exceptionally tall. duncan the Small however gave up his right to the throne in order to wed the lower class Jenny of Old Stones.

Exceptionally tall vs exceptionally small. If he had been of an average height,or simply tall he wouldn't be called the small.