Maggy the Frog, theory about her prophecy

[Booknerd2]

Well, not sure how in love with this I am to begin with but...

I am not entirely sure the hands around the pale white throat is literal.

There are so many sayings, meaning you have a vice-like grip on someon, they are in your clutches, breaking a person, etc.

[lostcause]

At this point I think it's pretty obvious it's Margery. She's already done with one of Cerceis children (Joff) - Tommen next as it looks now.

However I do not think they need to die per say, only that Cercei "loses" them.

[rmholt]

Well, not sure how in love with this I am to begin with but...

I am not entirely sure the hands around the pale white throat is literal.

There are so many sayings, meaning you have a vice-like grip on someon, they are in your clutches, breaking a person, etc.

Really? What part of the prophecy did you find not literal? Cersei did not wed the prince, she was a queen, Melara died so thereafter, Cersei had 3 children, Robert was supposed to have had 16 - tho I have only found 8 bastards, it isnt hard to believe there are 8 more out there. She didnt seem very much into metaphors or hidden meanings.

[rmholt]

At this point I think it's pretty obvious it's Margery. She's already done with one of Cerceis children (Joff) - Tommen next as it looks now.

However I do not think they need to die per say, only that Cercei "loses" them.

Shrouds are for dead people unless I am mistaken.

HOw do you know Margaery killed Joff? Olenna was nearby at the time. Tommen is in no danger that I can see - Margaery is in custody and Tommen is free and unthreatened.

How do you make a "little brother" into a girl?

Or have I been trolled?

[rmholt]

Crowns seems to have more double meanings in a practical sense than shroud. I feel like even though there are alternative meanings for shrouds, it just feels like more of a stretch. You could definitely say, using that definition, though, that their shrouds have been gold all their lives - their true identity as crimson Lannisters is "concealed" by their golden Baratheon identity, or their shrouds. It even protects them as well, from the consequences of their being named as what they are, with the implication throughout the series that they would be put to death (at least by Robert, I don't know what would happen now that they are dead). But somehow it just doesn't feel quite as on point as "gold shall be their crowns" referring to their crowns of golden hair or something like that.

I took it to mean they would have crowns of gold. Tommen and Joffrey have already been crowned king and Myrcella is on the verge of it.

ALthough many people like to try to dig out secret meanings of words in the books some characters like the puns (see Red Wedding: Walder Frey) some talk in confusing metaphors that are too obscure to be useful (High Heart "dwarf", Quaithe) the maegi as far as I can tell was not one of these people.

Marie

[Booknerd2]

It would take forever to repost all of my posts, others posts, and it has been on several threads but some believe that the prophecy is all literal or some parts are literal and some may not be.

Certain things like the amount of children for her and Robert are literal, but there seems to be room for interpretation about the queen part, valonqar part, when your tears have drowned you, etc. And I am not sure about the choking part being literal.

For example, there is a pretty busy thread right now kicking around the idea that the more beautiful one that will come along, might be Brienne.

And if not taken literally, there are interesting points to back it up as a possibulity.

Also, many prophecies are not literal or are used as a literary device in which a character misinterprets them in many series.

[rmholt]

It would take forever to repost all of my posts, others posts, and it has been on several threads but some believe that the prophecy is all literal or some parts are literal and some may not be.

Certain things like the amount of children for her and Robert are literal, but there seems to room for interpretation about the queen part, valonqar part, when your tears have drowned you, etc. And I am not sure about the choking part being literal.

For example, there is a pretty busy thread right now kicking around the idea that the more beautiful one that will come along, might be Brienne.

And if not taken literally, there are interesting points to back it up as a possibulity.

Also, many prophecies are not literal or are used as a literary devices to where a character misinterprets them in many series.

But a character ought to follow that character's rules. You cant have a character who is dead on literal in all of the known prophecies and give her metaphorical stylings for the predictions that havent had a chance to happen yet - on the same day during the same reading. If there is anything this book has it is characters that are consistent. If they change you can see how it happens.

[Booknerd2]

Have you read all the pages in this thread? Many interpretations of this prophecy just from various posters. Many other threads too. Not saying that anyone has to like them or agree with them.

I am not debating right or wrong. I am not just not sure that everything, though some things were, might be literal. Many have that opinion too. And even make amazing cases for it too, with info to back it up as well.

I respect your opinion, but I am not leaving any stones unturned.

Everything from Greek mythology up until Harry Potter and beyond and between that time, there have been works works that sometimes have had prophecies that are not literal or can be interpreted in many ways.

[richard_ba]

Crackpot: If somehow Brienne ends up defeating Robert Strong in Cersei's trial by combat, then Brienne is the one who strips Cersei of her power, thus taking that which is most dear. Her nickname is "Brienne the Beauty," after all. And I believe she is on her way to winning Jaime as well. Food for thought.

She would be both the more beautiful queen and the valonquar

Brienne is also a younger sibling, since she had an older brother who died. There may be foreshadowing of this in the dream Jaime has about himself, Cersei, and Brienne in the dungeon under Casterly Rock.

And to know when Cersei has lost what is most dear to her, we have to first identify what IS most dear to her. Suspects would be Tywin, Jaime, her children, power, and vanity about her appearance. In my opinion, what she holds MOST dear is the power, and all of the rest is dear only because each is a route to power.

If her children are most dear, and then Margaery is the younger queen and will take all the rest as well.

If power is what is most dear, then whoever takes away her power as Regent is the younger queen. It may be Margaery or it may be someone else.

Well, if it is power that Cersei is going to linger, I don't believe Margaery fits it well, we all know that power is being held by Daenerys (through a struggle) and Sansa who is going to be a queen and there is a consensus in this across the forums, so the queen that is going to cast her down is either Sansa or Daenerys.

But I believe that the more beautiful queen is going to be as unexpected as the valonquar, perhaps Jeyne Westerling

[rmholt]

Have you read all the pages in this thread? Many interpretations of this prophecy just from various posters. Many other threads too. Not saying that anyone has to like them or agree with them.

I am not debating right or wrong. I am not just not sure that everything, though some things were, might be literal. Many have that opinion too. And even make amazing cases for it too, with info to back it up as well.

I respect your opinion, but I am not leaving any stones unturned.

Everything from Greek mythology up until Harry Potter and beyond and between that time, there have been works works that sometimes have had prophecies that are not literal or can be interpreted in many ways.

AsoIaF has prophecies that can be literal or interpreted in obscure ways. my point is that some one individual who is giving literal prophecies for the ones we know of is not going to do a 180 and start talking in obscure metaphors for future events. GRRM is a better writer than that. I wouldnt expect maegi to start making obscure prophecies after a string of literal ones any more than I expect the lady of High heart to start making sense to the people who are listening.

By far the theory that makes most sense to me is for Loras to be both the other more beautiful (queen?) who shoves Cersei aside and then strangles her. Why wouldnt he? if it isnt Tyrion.

[Booknerd2]

I believe this to be a possibility.

Cersei already acted on Tyrion and Margeary. She may even be right about Margaery.

But I think she will be wrong at some point and it will be devestating to her because she interpreted it a certain way, and doubly that who they really are were people she was so wrong on the mark about, so out of left field that it will be even worse for her.

[Booknerd2]

And that is great that you feel that way.

But I am of the opinion that I don't feel that way.

[Jem]

AsoIaF has prophecies that can be literal or interpreted in obscure ways. my point is that some one individual who is giving literal prophecies for the ones we know of is not going to do a 180 and start talking in obscure metaphors for future events. GRRM is a better writer than that. I wouldnt expect maegi to start making obscure prophecies after a string of literal ones any more than I expect the lady of High heart to start making sense to the people who are listening.

By far the theory that makes most sense to me is for Loras to be both the other more beautiful (queen?) who shoves Cersei aside and then strangles her. Why wouldnt he? if it isnt Tyrion.

Maggy says that Cersei will drown on her tears. Is that meant to be literal? I don't think so. To me it simply means either Cersei will be so sad that she will cry a lot or it may be a reference to the Tears of Lys poison. Either way, she won't literally be drowning in her own tears.

How does it make sense for Loras to be a queen? He isn't literally a queen, so by your own account he should not fit the prophecy.

[tubbletian]

How does it make sense for Loras to be a queen? He isn't literally a queen, so by your own account he should not fit the prophecy.

*bites fist* No, I won't.

[rmholt]

*bites fist* No, I won't.

Maggy says that Cersei will drown on her tears. Is that meant to be literal? I don't think so. To me it simply means either Cersei will be so sad that she will cry a lot or it may be a reference to the Tears of Lys poison. Either way, she won't literally be drowning in her own tears.

How does it make sense for Loras to be a queen? He isn't literally a queen, so by your own account he should not fit the prophecy.

Many have pointed out that she doesnt actually say Cersei will be replaced by another queen. Although I think that's what she meant. And what tubbletian said.

Loras at the Hand's tourney: "My armor is FABulous!"

[rmholt]

She cant DROWN in her tears because she dies by strangulation. The tears of Lys cause intestinal problems.

[Fender]

Random thought. Aegon is Rhaenys' younger brother. He could be the valonquar. But I tend to think that simply because they bothered to put emphasis on the fact that Valyrian is genderless and valonquar could also be a girl, that it might end up being Arya or another woman. (In that case, both valonquar and prettier queen could be the same person.) I like the suggestion of Jeyne Westerling. But I would be very happy if the queen ended up being Loras.

[icantstandgreyjoys]

First of all I would like to say that I'll go with literal interpretation of the prophecy. I think that Maggy is pretty straightforward with the first part, marrying the king, Cersei having 3 children etc. So I think that all 3 of them will wear crowns, well actually 2 of them already did. And all 3 will die too(well, all 2 at the moment). I actually like Tommen and Myrcella, they are clearly more like Jaime, than Cersei. I think that it will be ironic, you don't look a kids personality to decide if he/she is highborn, kids(not just Tommen and Myrcella) are "highborn" because of the identity of their father, but these 2 will die because of their mother and their positions in life. As for the crowning, I will come to that after.

Ok, from now on I will start to assume things, about the "more young and beautiful" person. I believe in the theories about the Tyrell plan, concerning Loras, but I think that the Margaery case is unexpected for them. I think that Margaery and her cousins will be found guilty, and will be sentenced, but somehow(I don't really now how sentencing part of trials work) the Tyrells will be able to slip her from the KL, and they won't be able to return. Her marriage to Tommen will be annuled(as it was never consummated), and Cersei(who will be saved by Sir Robert Strong) will find herself in power again; no Kevan, no Tyrells, but just her lovely Tommen. And she'll go all Cersei again, I can see her being so full of herself, she will believe that she has casted Margaery down, and there can be no other young and beautiful queen and no prophecy can take her down etc etc. Until the real one comes. So no, I don't think that it is Margaery. It's Dany or Sansa maybe, I don't know. I'd go with Dany.

The reason I believe that Cersei will come to power again(despite her Walk of Shame) is that she has pretty much nothing to hold dear at the moment. And because I would love the see her got kicked off by Dany personally afterwards.

I don't know how Myrcella ends up wearing the crown, Tommen could be killed or Dorne might rise for her after they hear that Quentyn failed, and get rid of her after they hear YG or Dany coming. But I belive that she will be crowned and dead, so will Tommen.

Then comes the valonqar part. I hope that it is Jaime. I can picture Cersei being trapped and seeing Jaime, whom she thinks that came to rescue her, but he kills her instead. Sweet. But I don't think that it is a way that GRRM would go. Since it would be so fitting. If it is not her valonqar, it can be "the valonqar" and when we think of little brothers, Sandor and Stannis are the ones that pops in mind first, since it is emphasized a million times that they are younger brothers. I think that if not Jaime and Tyrion, it should be someones younger brother that she caused a damage/killed somehow. Since it says the, not a(just a thought?).

By the way, I don't hate Cersei, I think that she is one of the best characters to read. But she has to die, and I hope that her death doesn't come in sleep.

And this is my first post, so please don't hit me hard.

[WitchyBex]

It could be even more metaphorical than that. Cersei is paranoid about Tyrion popping up and strangling her etc. But none of the prophecies have been that direct. I'd be surprised if hers was.

What interests me is the wording "pale white throat." It may sound crazy, but it makes me think that it doesn't even have to be Cersei's throat. It could be a cryptic reference to something that is going to happen at The Neck. It could be her own life or complete annihilation of her troops and/or claim on the crown. (Also I think all her children will have to be crowned and dead before this happens... maybe after they die she tries to take the realm for herself? she is crazy like that).

I love this idea!!!! Jaime, Brienne and Sansa are all in the vicinity not to far from the Neck. There is no one to return Sansa to other than Edmure (on his way to Casterly Rock) family-wise or Bryndon (MIA). However, if Jaime intends to return Sansa to the North, then White Harbor is not too far away. Let me think on this some more...I think you may have something there.

[Brandon Martell]

Marg is just too obvious. Cersei expects Marg to be the other queen, and that's exactly why I think she isn't. At first I used to think it's Dany, but now I'm between Sansa and Arianne. Sansa seems pretty popular, but I'm surprised few pick Arianne.