Maggy the Frog, theory about her prophecy

[winterbird]

From the Sansa POV chapters, it seems almost like Cersei wants her to continue to be the Queen even once Tyrion tells Sansa that he hopes she never weds Joffery (after she was stripped and beaten). We don't get Cersei POV chaps until Margery is in the picture, but it seems to me that if Sansa had been the Queen she would have been a "Queen." She idolized Cersei. She wanted to be a "perfect queen" like the older woman. And if Joff hadn't beheaded her father or beat Sansa this was likely to happen. Joff and Cersei would have ruled the kingdom, while Sansa took care of the bearing children and worshiping Joffery. (at least this is how I assume Cersei would have pictured it). She would have no reason to see aGoT Sansa as a threat because Sansa doesn't think for herself. She is obedient. I think once Cersei has competition (for Margery shows this right away) then Cersei begins to worry that this is a "younger queen" and a "little brother" and the prophecy comes back to her... it almost seems (I'd have to look in the book to confirm) that Joff's death prompted the prophecy to come back to her mind. I remember her saying she hadn't thought about it in years.

Then again, she remarks on Sansa beauty quite often (as if it is her only redeeming quality.) So it could be the first hint that the words are coming back to her mind.

[Kanon]

Really? You think it never crossed her mind the entire time Sansa was at King's Landing and in the immediate aftermath of Joffrey's death?

She never took the prophecy seriously until Tyrion "killed" Joffrey and Tywin. Imo she would be much worse to sansa if she suspected that she would depose her...

[rmholt]

I love how nobody believes my theory about the Valonqar being Benjen Stark. It'll be all the more sweeter :cool4:

It's getting some love.

If I were king of the forum I would require anyone who thinks Jaime is the Valonqar to come up with a theory, no matter how crackpotted, to explain how he wraps his *hands* around Cerseis neck. You cant just say Jaime is the valonqar, d'uh, not since he lost his hand. Well you can, but it isnt very convincing.

[Jem]

It's getting some love.

If I were king of the forum I would require anyone who thinks Jaime is the Valonqar to come up with a theory, no matter how crackpotted, to explain how he wraps his *hands* around Cerseis neck. You cant just say Jaime is the valonqar, d'uh, not since he lost his hand. Well you can, but it isnt very convincing.

For goodness sake, he just fits his semi-open golden hand as far around her throat as possible and then uses it to brace against while he squeezes with his real hand. Some people are either just too pedantic or have no imagination.

[rmholt]

For goodness sake, he just fits his semi-open golden hand as far around her throat as possible and then uses it to brace against while he squeezes with his real hand. Some people are either just too pedantic or have no imagination.

Well, sure he could strangle her. He threatened to strangle Qyburn with one hand, while septic. Loose usage of "wrap" as more a passive vowel for one hand and active for the other - but at least it answers the question!

Does anyone think one reason the prophecy wording and Jaime's maiming, together, are meant to signal it ISNT Jaime? Or are we all too gun shy to go with the obvious? Especially since before the maiming, Jaime was the obvious.

[A...]

Well, sure he could strangle her. He threatened to strangle Qyburn with one hand, while septic. Loose usage of "wrap" as more a passive vowel for one hand and active for the other - but at least it answers the question!

Does anyone think one reason the prophecy wording and Jaime's maiming, together, are meant to signal it ISNT Jaime? Or are we all too gun shy to go with the obvious? Especially since before the maiming, Jaime was the obvious.

I think Jaime needs this in his character development arc - basically unless Cersei is dead, he is never going to get over her. And at this point it's much more likely to be him than Tyrion who is a fugitive, very very far away and with no foreseeable return to Westeros planned.

Personally, I used to think it would be Loras, since he's valonqar to Margaery - a younger queen, but then again that doesn't fit my theory for who the younger, more beautiful queen is (I have been saying Myrcella since day 1 - and it's hardly likely Tommen is going to strangle his mother) so that leaves me with Jaime.... unless Varys has a Tywin-bastard up his sleeve somewhere, which is highly doubtful.

[rmholt]

I think Jaime needs this in his character development arc - basically unless Cersei is dead, he is never going to get over her. And at this point it's much more likely to be him than Tyrion who is a fugitive, very very far away and with no foreseeable return to Westeros planned.

Personally, I used to think it would be Loras, since he's valonqar to Margaery - a younger queen, but then again that doesn't fit my theory for who the younger, more beautiful queen is (I have been saying Myrcella since day 1 - and it's hardly likely Tommen is going to strangle his mother) so that leaves me with Jaime.... unless Varys has a Tywin-bastard up his sleeve somewhere, which is highly doubtful.

Loras is a younger more beautiful queen as well. Anyway, Tommen cant kill his Mom as he dies before she does. Varys has Tyrek and GRRM only knows what he will do with him. Myrcella cant be the younger more beautiful other either as she also dies before her mom. Well, I guess she could cast down her Mom and then die. And then someone else comes along and offs Cersei. Has Myrcella been described as a great beauty? If so I missed that.

[A...]

Loras is a younger more beautiful queen as well. Anyway, Tommen cant kill his Mom as he dies before she does. Varys has Tyrek and GRRM only knows what he will do with him. Myrcella cant be the younger more beautiful other either as she also dies before her mom. Well, I guess she could cast down her Mom and then die. And then someone else comes along and offs Cersei. Has Myrcella been described as a great beauty? If so I missed that.

My theory about Myrcella was presupposing Cersei dies only thinking both her children dead.

As to her being beautiful - well, she has Cersei and Jaime's genes - so it's a pretty fair bet. Although she is horribly scarred - but this is GRRM, 3/4 of his characters are horribly scarred/maimed/injured, so I'm pretty certain she has nothing to fear from the competition on that front.

[Jolene Brown]

Every once in awhile, I amuse myself with the idea that the younger, more beautiful thing refers to Brienne. She's younger, and people have called her "Brienne the Beauty," although obviously ironically, and she is definitely taking away the one thing Cercei holds most dear (Jaime). I would even say she is a large part of why Jaime burns Cercei's letter, and she is certainly the reason he is now absent in the Riverlands, meaning that he is not around to help "save" Cercei from the trouble she has gotten herself into. But it would be sort of like an ironic joke on GRRM's part, and I don't know if he'd be quite that silly with such a major part of the book.

[Booknerd2]

Like this. Never ever considered it. I feel odd now about overlooking this, because she is so wrapped up with the Cat, Jaime, looking for the girls, has her own POV's...

She is her father's sole heir. She is called "The Beauty." Why not? This is not Snow White, this Martin.

What has happened would kill Cersei anyway if she knew it. How much Jaime esteems and respects Brienne. The risks he has taken to help her.

[femfatalatron]

You know... I like the idea of this prophecy getting fulfilled in the obvious ways: Margaery as younger queen and Tyrion as the valonqar. A prophecy coming true in the most literal sense is, at this point, the last thing the fandom expects from GRRM. Anyway, with prophecies of doom, it's not where you end up, it's how you get there that's interesting. Oedipus Rex is a gripping story, not because you don't know how it ends, but because it's fascinating to watch him struggle against his fate and ultimately bring it about through those struggles. Oh, and his hubris, let's not forget that.

[Wouter]

Chapter 51 Sansa PoV tells a different story.Cersei "why else should you have come to me and told of your father's plan". Without the forewarning by Sansa, Ned's plan had a chance at a more positive conclusion with the warning the gambit was lost before it began.

Does thick as a plank ring a bell?

If Sansa is thick as a plank, then so was Ned (and anyway, Sansa is quite a bit like Ned in character - both have/had soft hearts). After all, Ned also told Cersei his plans, even before Sansa did the same. Moreover, he told LF his plans down to the details (which Sansa had no clue off, as she wasn't told very much) and LF happens to be the man who was certain to betray him at the latest by the time Ned made it clear he would go for Stannis (which is not good for LF, who loathes the Starks anyway). So, a chance of a more positive conclusion? As if Slynt and LF suddenly wouldn't turn on him? :bs:

For the actual topic, I think people are being overly certain that GRRM never, ever will use an obvious conclusion. You hear it all the time on the forums, "no, GRRM wouldn't do that because it's obvious". Well, if GRRM would really never do what was obvious then his books wouldn't make sense IMO, it's more for a hack writer to go for shocks everytime with logic be damned. On other hand, people also seem to overestimate the effect of the fans speculating and guessing; "if we find it out then he will want to change it". GRRM has stated he doesn't follow message boards about his work for exactly that reason: not to be influenced. Not to mention, if he would change something everytime some fans guessed it the books would finish totally different from what he planned and as a result make little or no sense (think foreshadowing and setup that falls completely by the wayside - a la the ending of Moore's BSG). Making things up as you go is not a good style to write books, IMO. It shows in the end result if the writer tends to change course on a whim.

So, my own guesses do include Margaery and Tyrion, simply because Margaery has done so much damage already, does have a personal hatred for Cersei and Cersei has brought her fall (as it is now) largely on herself, exactly because of Margaery. And Tyrion, because he has motive. However, I do think Jaime is more likely as the Valonquar - I don't think the hands problem is insurmountable and it may be the end point of his turning against Cersei, while Tyrion has already done a similar thing with Shae and it may be overkill to have him do it again. Since the valonquar moment is still far away (presumably), it could probably be anyone who is a little brother to someone, but Jaime would strike a chord I think.

If the queen isn't Margaery, it would mean that Cersei has to recover to at least some extent from the problems she is in now. Then there would still be things to take away from her; Myrcelle and Tommen and her power base (Casterly Rock). However, Marge has already taken Joffrey and is working on Tommen (though in another way). If Cersei manages to stop that, maybe with her unstoppable killing machine, I guess that would bring Arianne (as FAegon's most likely queen, IMO) and Dany in the picture instead. Sansa would be an outside runner, I could see her becoming queen-consort in the end (even to Tyrion, should it come to that) but I don't see her having anything to do with Tommen or Myrcella dying.

[weaselontherun]

If Sansa is thick as a plank, then so was Ned (and anyway, Sansa is quite a bit like Ned in character - both have/had soft hearts). After all, Ned also told Cersei his plans, even before Sansa did the same. Moreover, he told LF his plans down to the details (which Sansa had no clue off, as she wasn't told very much) and LF happens to be the man who was certain to betray him at the latest by the time Ned made it clear he would go for Stannis (which is not good for LF, who loathes the Starks anyway). So, a chance of a more positive conclusion? As if Slynt and LF suddenly wouldn't turn on him? :bs:

For the actual topic, I think people are being overly certain that GRRM never, ever will use an obvious conclusion. You hear it all the time on the forums, "no, GRRM wouldn't do that because it's obvious". Well, if GRRM would really never do what was obvious then his books wouldn't make sense IMO, it's more for a hack writer to go for shocks everytime with logic be damned. On other hand, people also seem to overestimate the effect of the fans speculating and guessing; "if we find it out then he will want to change it". GRRM has stated he doesn't follow message boards about his work for exactly that reason: not to be influenced. Not to mention, if he would change something everytime some fans guessed it the books would finish totally different from what he planned and as a result make little or no sense (think foreshadowing and setup that falls completely by the wayside - a la the ending of Moore's BSG). Making things up as you go is not a good style to write books, IMO. It shows in the end result if the writer tends to change course on a whim.

So, my own guesses do include Margaery and Tyrion, simply because Margaery has done so much damage already, does have a personal hatred for Cersei and Cersei has brought her fall (as it is now) largely on herself, exactly because of Margaery. And Tyrion, because he has motive. However, I do think Jaime is more likely as the Valonquar - I don't think the hands problem is insurmountable and it may be the end point of his turning against Cersei, while Tyrion has already done a similar thing with Shae and it may be overkill to have him do it again. Since the valonquar moment is still far away (presumably), it could probably be anyone who is a little brother to someone, but Jaime would strike a chord I think.

If the queen isn't Margaery, it would mean that Cersei has to recover to at least some extent from the problems she is in now. Then there would still be things to take away from her; Myrcelle and Tommen and her power base (Casterly Rock). However, Marge has already taken Joffrey and is working on Tommen (though in another way). If Cersei manages to stop that, maybe with her unstoppable killing machine, I guess that would bring Arianne (as FAegon's most likely queen, IMO) and Dany in the picture instead. Sansa would be an outside runner, I could see her becoming queen-consort in the end (even to Tyrion, should it come to that) but I don't see her having anything to do with Tommen or Myrcella dying.

Won't argue the point Ned gave himself away. What Sansa did was give away the timing thereby allowing Cersei full preparation & preemptive attack.

As I've stated previously it is Garlan Tyrell - valonqar and Lady Nym the younger more beautiful one.

[Wouter]

Won't argue the point Ned gave himself away. What Sansa did was give away the timing thereby allowing Cersei full preparation & preemptive attack.

Would that have mattered? Slynt and LF knew the timing perfectly, and were standing right next to Ned when he confronted Cersei. Even if neither would warn Cersei and she was surprised by the timing, they would still have turned their dagger and spears on Ned's neck and Ned's men, respectively. The Stark soldiers were hopelessly outnumbered, with the goldcloaks against them instead of with them as Ned though. He never had a chance, from the moment Renly left with his men.

[Swordsaint]

Won't argue the point Ned gave himself away. What Sansa did was give away the timing thereby allowing Cersei full preparation & preemptive attack.

As I've stated previously it is Garlan Tyrell - valonqar and Lady Nym the younger more beautiful one.

Enough people have seen both Lady Nym and Cersei. None have mentioned Nym being more beautiful then Cersei. If you only go by age then half the realm is probably better looking. Starting with every Martell woman. There are only three women in the story with enough hype to match Cersei's beauty; Dany, Sansa, and Val.

Garlan is possible as Valonqar but I do not think he is significant enough for the privilege. Besides the Starks need to [some] form of solid revenge on the Lannisters. Seeing them practically kill themselves from their own stupidity just isn't interesting enough.

[Wouter]

Enough people have seen both Lady Nym and Cersei. None have mentioned Nym being more beautiful then Cersei.

Not that I see Nymeria as a candidate, but I don't think anybody ever compared them? Since Cersei's beauty seems to be fading by AFFC, I think a lot of youngish girls could actually count as more beautiful now.

[weaselontherun]

Would that have mattered? Slynt and LF knew the timing perfectly, and were standing right next to Ned when he confronted Cersei. Even if neither would warn Cersei and she was surprised by the timing, they would still have turned their dagger and spears on Ned's neck and Ned's men, respectively. The Stark soldiers were hopelessly outnumbered, with the goldcloaks against them instead of with them as Ned though. He never had a chance, from the moment Renly left with his men.

Yes the timing made a difference without Sansa's quisling routine it is quite concievable that the girls would have been on the Wind Witch to White Harbour and Winterfell before Cersei sprung her trap. I suppose it all turns on whether Sansa immediately on being told of her return home went to Cersei. If so, Cersei would be already preparing for Ned even when she met at the Godswood and makes Sansa's betrayal most base.

[weaselontherun]

Enough people have seen both Lady Nym and Cersei. None have mentioned Nym being more beautiful then Cersei. If you only go by age then half the realm is probably better looking. Starting with every Martell woman. There are only three women in the story with enough hype to match Cersei's beauty; Dany, Sansa, and Val.

Garlan is possible as Valonqar but I do not think he is significant enough for the privilege. Besides the Starks need to [some] form of solid revenge on the Lannisters. Seeing them practically kill themselves from their own stupidity just isn't interesting enough.

I heartily disagree AFFC reads as much. The fact of the matter is Lady Nym and Tyene have a plan to rid themselves of Cersei and inferring the words of AFFC both of these Sand Snakes are younger and more beautiful.

Quick question where does it say Sansa is more beautiful? Either I've overlooked it or been willful blind to it.

As far as Garlan goes he owes much as much pain to Cersei as any. When you consider the hell she has put Margery through and how Cersei set up Loras to take Dragonstone and the injuries he Loras suffered therein there is as good a case as any for Garlan to be not so Gallant.

[Wouter]

Quick question where does it say Sansa is more beautiful? Either I've overlooked it or been willful blind to it.

Which pretty young girl isn't more beautiful than Cersei is nowadays? Tyrion considers Sansa as beautiful as Margaery is. LF and Sandor would probably agree.

Cersei, meanwhile, even admitted to herself she wasn't all that anymore, after her humiliation in AFFC.

[The Sleeper]

Well, to be fair to Cersei, Loras set himself up. What else could he have done? Gone to Dragonstone tell Redwyne that Cersei can go fuk herself and sail off to defend their homeland. What could Cersei done about it? Brood.