Maggy the Frog, theory about her prophecy

[Mumatil]

I'd like to see a Sansa and Jaime for Queen and Valonqar

Dany or Sansa, I still can't believe some people think its going to Tyrion, of course it will be Jaime.

[godless10]

Stannis for Valonqar in my opinion. I was in the Jaime camp till the whole hand incident...

[Booknerd2]

Not sure here. For some reason I think also, like Margaery, the Tyrion ship has passed. But then again, his writing is so good, maybe not.

So far she has acted on all her initial and even beyond reactions; her own interpretations to two things that she personally singled out regarding the prophecy.

She singled out, herself, Margaery, literally, as the younger queen, and I think she was wrong and screwed herself and caused deeper problems.

No doubt that she singled out Tyrion as the younger brother and I think she was wrong there too. But then again, due to her treatment of him, that could twist and come to pass too, due to her actions.

She alientated a tactical and strategic genius in pre-book 5 Tyrion. He would have welcomed any affection from her if she managed it at any time in the many years before he killed Tywin. Not even an over abundance. He was willing to to be loyal to her if she even threw him a bone from time to time or at least admitted he was right or so for once. She had a shot there with a brilliant Hand. He would have been loyal due to his care for Jaime and even not exactly liking her due to her own fault. He was oftentimes loyal despite going in and knowing Joffrey was all wrong as ruler.

Her dealings with Tyrion sealed problems for her. If he gets back to Westeros now, all forgiveness and forget is over. She has also now alienated Jaime, who championed her too, and is also her twin, but younger due to an interval of time, because she was born first.

I am wondering if the Tyrion and Jaime younger brother deception by her is so transparent now, that they may not be viable, nor a surprise to the reader anymore, so that it just might be someone else that Martin has planned.

[Budj]

Sorry to ruin it for you guys, but it's quite obvious that Rickon's sole purpose in the series as the "little brother" is to strangle Cersei....and then eat her face because he spent too much time in Skagos and on bath salts.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

I like the Dany and Tyrion idea. Plus if the theory of Aerys being Tyrion's dad is true then he is the little brother of Rhaegar and Cersei. It would be bittersweet.

[rmholt]

Sorry to ruin it for you guys, but it's quite obvious that Rickon's sole purpose in the series as the "little brother" is to strangle Cersei....and then eat her face because he spent too much time in Skagos and on bath salts.

And he is ANGRY

[Swordsaint]

Although I like your theory for Benjen, you can't dismiss Jon as the Valonqar. Jon was raised as a Stark. Cersei is responsible for Ned's death, Arya's road to sociopathy and Sansa's torture at the hands of Joffrey. If my crackpot theory of he and Dany being twins are true and he is the second born, then he is little brother to Dany----who is rightfully Queen of Westeros! :laugh:

Jon isn't a little brother to anyone you named. Ned=father/uncle, an Arya, Sansa, and Dany are all younger..

I thought Benjen went missing much sooner than when Ned got arrested. Didn't he go ranging on Jon's first week there? Jon asked to go with him and he said no. Ned was still on the Kingsroad. I thought Yoren later bought the news to Ned at the same time he informed him that Cat had captured Tyrion.

I wouldn't call it much sooner. They also go ranging for long periods of time so it would take a while to even assume he was missing. In the very first prologue they would have been gone for no less then 18 days if they were to make it back. And I'm not even sure that is considered a long ranging by Night's Watch standards. Pretty sure Ned was in KL when Yoren told him. I do not think it's out of the realm of possibility for Benjen to have escaped a wildling attack. Then take time to heal up somewhere, and later find out that Ned was arrested.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Dany being the younger and beautiful queen is quite unfair if you ask me. She already is - along with Jon Snow - quite the major character of the series. She has many story lines involving her, plus Dany has a couple of prophecies about her. Why isn't it possible for someone else to be the younger queen then Dany. There are also other characters. I really don't think GRRM would take all that time with Sansa - who has been an important character since AGOT - to show some qualities that would make her capable ruler as player if it wasn't meant for her to use those assets. Plus Sansa has quite a lot of foreshadows in the novels to be the younger queen. Cersei seeing her in the crowd during her shame walk, Sansa's very vague dream in AGOT near the Iron Throne and wears a golden dress and every one bows to her - this is a direct voil to Cersei's dream in on the Iron Throne naked and mocked, Sansa taking over Cersei's duties during the BWB battle, and nor is the narrative parallel's between Sansa and Cersei a coincidence.

And unlike Dany, she actually has a foreshadow in HBO tv-show. Why on earth would GRRM - who wrote that specific episode - make Shae state that Cersei could be jealous of Sansa if it isn't meant to be foreshadow.

And while I have been a bit skeptical about it Stannis being the valonqar is quite possibility. He was Cersei's little brother through marriage. And him strangling Melisandre in HBO tv-show could be also a foreshadow. The idea of Jaime does appeal me, but honestly how will he do so when he only has one hand :dunno: ?

[weaselontherun]

Why all this muling about Sansa? It would take GRRM to twist himself into a pretzel to get her to be "the younger queen". Say Tommen kicks. Who is now king...Stannis (Robert's sons then Robert's brother) Say Stannis kicks. We now have a dead girl Queen Shireen. Shireen kicks. The Baratheon line is now defunct. Trace back ancestry guess what we are back to Targaryen's. Whose throne is it now.... Aegon's. Oh gee he is single he can marry Sansa. Wait, wait there's a problem here particularly if Dany is coming to Westros with ah hah Sansa's husband Tyrion. So now Tyrion has to be kicked. That being the case he isn't the valonator. We still have Jamie tromping about the Trident with Brienne for how long who knows (that's another subplot). Just figured out who the valonator is Garlan the Gallant (Willas little brother) in retribution for all the insult his Cersie has heaped on his younger siblings Margery & Loras

Oh yes the younger more beautiful Queen.... Lady Nymeria.

Mystery solved.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Why all this muling about Sansa? It would take GRRM to twist himself into a pretzel to get her to be "the younger queen". Say Tommen kicks. Who is now king...Stannis (Robert's sons then Robert's brother) Say Stannis kicks. We now have a dead girl Queen Shireen. Shireen kicks. The Baratheon line is now defunct. Trace back ancestry guess what we are back to Targaryen's. Whose throne is it now.... Aegon's. Oh gee he is single he can marry Sansa. Wait, wait there's a problem here particularly if Dany is coming to Westros with ah hah Sansa's husband Tyrion. So now Tyrion has to be kicked. That being the case he isn't the valonator. We still have Jamie tromping about the Trident with Brienne for how long who knows (that's another subplot). Just figured out who the valonator is Garlan the Gallant (Willas little brother) in retribution for all the insult his Cersie has heaped on his younger siblings Margery & Loras

Oh yes the younger more beautiful Queen.... Lady Nymeria.

Mystery solved.

Why is the idea of Sansa being the younger queen be such a crazy thing. Unlike Margaery and Daenerys Sansa being the younger queen would be poetic, have some sense of justice plus it would shock Cersei so much. Daenerys being the younger queen does not create drama ore have a complexity to it, because she doesn't know Cersei. Dany being the younger queen would have the cliché "chosen one" crap going on. Sansa however is another thing. Cersei and Sansa hate each other. They have some unfinished business with each other. Cersei wants Sansa died for the death of Joffrey. There is drama there. And it would make things interesting to it.

[Jolene Brown]

All it says technically is "another will come along, younger and more beautiful." You could make the connection that it will be "another queen," because that is what Maggy was talking about previously (you will be the queen) but I don't think it actually has to be a queen.

[weaselontherun]

Why is the idea of Sansa being the younger queen be such a crazy thing. Unlike Margaery and Daenerys Sansa being the younger queen would be poetic, have some sense of justice plus it would shock Cersei so much. Daenerys being the younger queen does not create drama ore have a complexity to it, because she doesn't know Cersei. Dany being the younger queen would have the cliché "chosen one" crap going on. Sansa however is another thing. Cersei and Sansa hate each other. They have some unfinished business with each other. Cersei wants Sansa died for the death of Joffrey. There is drama there. And it would make things interesting to it.

The fact of the matter is Sansa is the most insipid of the Starks. She was instrumental in the death of her father and the decimation of the family. She is not deserving of any praise or prize.

For Sansa to be Queen GRRM would have to rid himself of a character so central to the saga (Tyrion) the story would lose much of its flavour. No Sansa will not, cannot be the young queen

As I have said it will be Lady Nym (Sand) Doran the clues are there eg the dire wolves Lady & Nymeria, she has a seat on the small council and when Aegon takes the throne he will enthrallled with her and be ready willing and able to solidify the Targayen/Doran alliance.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

The fact of the matter is Sansa is the most insipid of the Starks. She was instrumental in the death of her father and the decimation of the family. She is not deserving of any praise or prize.

For Sansa to be Queen GRRM would have to rid himself of a character so central to the saga (Tyrion) the story would lose much of its flavour. No Sansa will not, cannot be the young queen

As I have said it will be Lady Nym (Sand) Doran the clues are there eg the dire wolves Lady & Nymeria, she has a seat on the small council and when Aegon takes the throne he will enthrallled with her and be ready willing and able to solidify the Targayen/Doran alliance.

Care to eleborate why Sansa is the most insipid of her siblings? Was it because she was how painfully naive she was in AGOT. Well the other stark children fared nor better then her on that case. And no Sansa did not kill her father for crying out loud. Ned was digging his own grave. All Sansa did was keep herself and Arya escaping from King's Landing. Which isn't that really bad, because they would have been killed by Theon, ore the red wedding. Tyrion may be GRRM favorite character, but he isn't the only character of the whole series. I am sorry you are not GRRM so you cannot state that Sansa being queen is impossible. I came up with some foreshadow from the novels. So again I ask you eleborate just how dumb Sansa is and why she would be a bad queen?

[Booknerd2]

I would have no issue for it to be Sansa, but I don't think that is going to happen.

She is another one where it would be anticlimactic. Her story is an absolute nightmare and the anti-fairytale.

Young, beautiful, polished...and it all went to crap. Everything she was trained to do and be. She sort of got what she wanted, well, not really, but she got a taste of it, saw into the other side. Walked right into her fairytale and it became a nightmare.

Even down to a cute innocent pet getting killed. I remember reading AGOT the first time. I was like, damn, even in the movies and books the cute little pet makes it.

Not for Sansa. Poor Lady.

Everything she was naturally gifted with or trained hard for mattered nothing when her world changed. Being so damn stubborn about the golden, handsome prince Joffrey and being Queen was nothing like she imagined. Well, not Queen, but she was damn close being engaged to Joff for a time.

She lived it. The clothes, servants, palace, royal family, the entertainment, everything. And she experienced the sociopath young king, the nasty mother-in-law, she lost her parents, her family, any hope of returning home, her septa, WInterfell's loyal people that travelled with them. And the cute pet.

She had it in a way. She learned that it wasn't at all like she imagined. That none of it made her happy without love and family. The snow castle is an important scene. Old Sansa would have scoffed from boredom. Mature and the new seasoned Sansa realized what she had lost and how much home and family counts and reminisces about what it meant to her and all she had lost in a way. It was so damn sad.

I could be wrong, but I think she had her dance as so close to queen, and it is not for her. Not saying that she is doomed.

She even gets a brave man who will fight for her and defend her in Sandor. Who is totally not what she imagined from her songs. But we the reader see that she is still attracted to him/or at least values him in her recollections.

I could be wrong. But can she really be queen in this world on her own terms and unconventionally?

Is her story a massive turning point that helps her for the future through hard life lessons or just a sad one that does not lead to power?

[Swordsaint]

Valonqars:

1. Benjen- My personal pick

2. Tyrion- Might be fun to see her worst nightmare come true.

3. Stannis

4. Jamie, but that's boring and obvious to me, and I can't even consider him her little brother seeing as they were both conceived/born within seconds of each other. It would have been just as easy for Maggi to say her twin, or something along those lines.

5. Crackpot- The High Sparrow, just a strange feeling about him being the little brother of someone Cersei hurt.

Queens:

1. Dany is just obvious, maybe too obvious.

2. Sansa- No clue how. A lot would need to happen.

3. Val- She marries Jon and they kick everyones ass. My second favorite possibility.

4. Arya- She comes out of puberty hotter then ever. Then she gets books on how to control dragons from Jaqen. Arya then kills Dany while bedding Daario, takes her face, her dragons and her throne- My personal favorite :cool4: She also most resembles Lyanna, who two men have already chosen over Cersei.

5. The Martell women have been described as hot, but I never got the impression they were hotter then Cersei. I don't recall anyone ever saying any of them were more beautiful then Queen Cersei. Still possible of course though.

[Aneurin Frey]

I love the idea of The Second Sons and Stannis being the Valonquars, and wish I'd thought of them. Everyone's cleverer than me here, it rocks.

But maybe Sandor, only because the others are little brothers, but it doesn't embodify their very being. Sandor lives to serve, and to kill Gregor. But I'm a big, gay SanSan shipper, so perhaps can't be trusted.

Lyanna was the only woman that Cersei ever thought to more beautiful than her, perhaps she could be both the Valonquar and the younger more beautiful queen? I realise that it means little brother but gender ambiguity has been used in prophecy before, why not again?

[weaselontherun]

Chapter 51 Sansa PoV tells a different story.Cersei "why else should you have come to me and told of your father's plan". Without the forewarning by Sansa, Ned's plan had a chance at a more positive conclusion with the warning the gambit was lost before it began.

Does thick as a plank ring a bell?

QueenSansaStark sorry I thought I hit the quote icon.

[StrongBelwas]

I have spent years pondering on this subject (yes years, AFfC came out in 2005). Here is my deeply considered thesis.

Q&A #1

"When will I marry the Prince?"

"Never. You will marry the King"

Obviously Robert Baratheon. We need go no further.

Q&A#2

"I will be queen though?"

"Aye. Queen you shall be. Until there comes another, younger and more beautiful. To cast you down and take from you all that you hold dear."

The key to this interaction is the phrase "younger and more beautiful". There are only 2 females in the story who fit this mold and who also have the political power needed to "cast Cersei down": Margary Tyrell and Danerys Targeryen. Margary is the obvious choice...and the person Cersei suspects. This is precisely why it isn't her. Martin is to crafty to go with an obvious choice like that and in any case, it's going to be the non-obvious rival that will blindside Cersei. Dany will arrive in Kings Landing with her dragons and unsullied and unseat Cersei without much challenge. There is also the possibility that Dany will combine forces with Aegon, adding the Golden Company to the mix. Martin made a point of allowing us to observe Cersei in intelligence briefings all throughout AFfC, and how she consistantly dismisses reports of the Golden Company doing odd things or that Dragons have been seen in Slavers Bay. GRRM is establishing that she is about to get sucker punched and it's entirely her fault.

Q&A#3

"Will the king and I have children?"

"Oh aye. Six and ten for him and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the Valonqar shall wrap his hands around your pale white throat and choke the life from you"

Certainly the most complicated of the three. Firstly, the three children of Cersei are Joffery, Tommen and Myrcella. The 16 other children are the sum of all the Bastards of Robert. Some we know: Edric Storm, Mya Stone, Gendry, the teenage whore Arya meets, the infant killed in GoT, and others. Some we will never see. Golden Crowns and shrouds indicate that Cersei will live to see each one crowned and then die. We've observed this already with Joff. Tommen has his crown but is yet alive. (Poor Tommen, such a sweet little kid) Myrcella will likely be crowned in Dorne.

And then there is the final line & the point many fans argue over: "The Valonqar will choke the life from you".

Many think this refers to Tyrion. I don't believe it does, for the same reason the "Younger more beautiful queen" isn't Margary. It's just too obvious. Consider that GRRM has informed us again and again that Cersei is one minute older than Jamie. Martin has gone to great lengths to reinforce this fact to us for 5 books. So Jamie will choke Cersei? Mayhap. But herein arises a new issue. How can Jamie wrap his "hands" (plural) around her throat when he only has one hand in total? Will he somehow use his Golden hand to assist? This is the part I cannot square with, because GRRM has showed us that Jamie cannot even pick up a wineglass with his golden hand. However, another theory that has been proposed is that Jamie will take the chain of hands that the Hand of the King wears and choke Cersei the same way Tyrion killed Shae. I doubt this idea, but I admit it makes the prophesy work.

Nevertheless, I personally believe Jamie to be the Valonqar and that by the last book Cersei will get herself into so much trouble that she will be put into a position where death is preferable to whatever fate would otherwise await her. Out of mercy Jamie will choke her to death and as he does so he will say one final time the oft repeated line from the series "Oh the things I do for love"

Again, the above ponderings are the result of 7 years of thought on the matter and consulation with many different fans of the series.

[rmholt]

Lyanna was the only woman that Cersei ever thought to more beautiful than her, perhaps she could be both the Valonquar and the younger more beautiful queen? I realise that it means little brother but gender ambiguity has been used in prophecy before, why not again?

Well, then Benjen could be the valonqar. So: perfect.

[Saer]

"When will I marry the Prince?"

"Never. You will marry the King"

"I will be queen though?"

"Aye. Queen you shall be. Until there comes another, younger and more beautiful. To cast you down and take from you all that you hold dear."

"Will the king and I have children?"

"Oh aye. Six and ten for him and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the Valonqar shall wrap his hands around your pale white throat and choke the life from you"

Look at them literally. Another. Not "another queen", just another. Not even specifically a woman. There is nothing that says her children will die before Cersei, or that they will die young. "Crowns" could apply to their hair. The younger brother--not her younger brother, just the younger brother. I wonder: is there something significant about the "pale white throat" bit? (I would laugh so hard if Cersei started coating her neck with make-up to try to evade her fate)