Heresy 15

[Uncat]

White Walker 1 [Prologue]: "You wouldn't believe how poor the watch rangers have become... killed this crow Waymar, he was as poorly armed as a 6 yr old, and just as slow!"

White Walker 2 [Fist]: "Mate, if you think that's bad - i found this fat kid pissing his pants at the FIST... the lads even had a bet on to see how long chubby would last in the cold on his own..."

White Walker 1 [Prologue]: "How far did he get?"

White Walker 2 [Fist]: "All the way to the Wall!"

White Walker 1 [Prologue]: "No way man! Did you forget to use your icy mist? or forget to kill all his mates so he would feel depressed and give up?"

White Walker 2 [Fist]: "Nah... we did all that but some crow tried carrying the fat bugger... Brian wasn't happy about that as he had bet 20 Ice-dragons on chubby not making it to Crasters... so he killed the Crow... only the fat one stuck him with some dagger that turned him into water!"

White Walker 1 [Prologue]: "No way dude! Brian always was a bit wet though!, Har! har! har!... so what's for lunch?"

Grpfl board does not show me the like button, but I love it all the way!

[Eyron]

The bit about the not attacking until provoked that houselark mentioned brings to mind similar ideas from lots traditional European folklore, such as disguised monsters not being to harm people unless they accepted a gift from the monster and monsters not being able to enter certain buildings unless invited, so its almost as if the others need an invitation to do anything, e.g. the Watch arriving on the fist and setting up camp would've been construed as an invitation. So maybe the magical powers of the wall isn't what's stopping the others, maybe they need to be invited through in some way?

Oh good that you mention this. I read about changelings in the Nordic folklore way back but forgot to post about it.

When a child is taken from humans and a changeling put in it's place, the human child is treated well if the changeling is. If the human family treats the changeling child badly, the human child gets the same treatment. That could be relevant considering Craster's boys and if there are Sidhe changelings in Westeros too.

And welcome to the thread! (if you are new to it, I didn't recognize your name at least)

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Omebody had been asking about the Others, and I had just posted a lenghy answer just before Heresy 15 came up. A piece of this seems to fit in here

Maybe we should see them neither as force of nature nore as the pure evil, but as just an ordinary old race like the Children. Maybe this is, what the TV show tried to work out. They are just ordinary people (well almost) who are pissed by events a thousan years ago and now have decided to fight bak, just like man would do it. Just like Bran thinks, man would do in the place of the Children. And while maybe are those peacefull treehugers (or not), the Others certainly aren't. And that again is, what GRRM tries to show with their behaviour.

My first impression of them was as some sort of elemental entity... Winter personified, if you will. As much a part of a super-long winter as the cold temperatures.

[Uncat]

I have always interpretted the fact that Coldhands couldn't pass South of the Wall and the fact that he couldn't enter the Children's cave as fairly strong support for the children-helped-build-the-wall-theory.

Whom they meant to keep on which side remains to be seen....but I do find the fact that humans can pass seemingly unaffected, and Coldhands couldn't pass at all to be telling.

Also related... In my second to last post in 14, we were discussing horns... and I think there is a connection between Others passing the Wall & the Horn of Winter.... also connected, I think, is the Old Nan saying about the NW which goes something like "Monsters can not pass South of the wall so long as the men of the Night's Watch remain true.." may also be connected.

I think it quite likely that there is a connection between Others passing through/over the wall, Horn of Winter, & the NW.

This isn't without contrary data though...

1. I pointed all in 14 (though it certainly could just be an old wives tale) the story of the apprentice boys at the Nightfort... who were attacked by WhiteWalkers(?) - They either got over the wall, or the wall didn't yet exist. Both scenarios have serious implications.

2. Jon's dream with dead men scaling the wall (scaling the wall sounds more like Walkers than wights if you ask me... wights haven't quite mastered the fine art of walking much less climbing 700ft walls.)

Jon's dream reminded me much of Dany's dream about attacking the Others on the Trident from dragonback. Dany sprayed them with dragonfire... Jon's sword burned red hot in his hand **

3. The Othor & Jaffer wights became re-animated South of the wall... though they were carried there...

**Hmm.. isn't there some mythical/historical figure that is supposed to have a burning sword?

Gotit, CotF did build the Wall in order to keep Man and WW from each Others throats and to guaranty the peace. Hurray!

[DragonSpawn]

Grpfl board does not show me the like button, but I love it all the way!

The more this threads adds to the culture and personality of the Others... the more i feel they should take on Dolourous Edds persona! :)

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I got questions about the Winter Court, and Others.

Winter court exists as Children, Giants, Trees, Others? But Craster's gods are not the trees, thusly not the children. So the Children and Others can't be on the same side, right? Why does Craster call them gods, and claim he's holy? This means that his mother told him they were gods (right? but then why isn't he an Other?), or I guess someone else who remembers the last sighting of the Others (not in Craster's lifetime?) calls them gods. But why Gods? There not loving like the seven, or magical like the Trees, just scary, right?

[Uncat]

Hmm, again, is it, that he can't enter because of magic or because the ones in the cave would not let him? That's quite a difference. No answeres there. On him passimg or not through the Black Gate, I'm still in love with Black Crows idea of the Black Gate in this current form being an installment of the ones owerthrowing the Night's King and imprisioning him in the trunk of one of his "gods" to serve as guard agains all other on the far side if the Wall. So the Others and maybe Coldhands, too, would be able to cross the Wall but mot through this Gate. and then Coldhands is a special case anyway. He may also be a dead supporter of the Night's King and thus belong to those specificaly barred out by the New Night Watch.

Oh somany possibilities :dunno:

[Ser Leftwich]

On the topic of Mel, I was impressed when she lit Varamyr's eagle on fire. Anything on how she was able to do that--magic or trick--and why she does not do things like that when burning people? I see magic, but can only believe it is a trick, because otherwise we would see her manipulate fire more often and in more ways than just good showmanship.

Since the eagle was being warged, magic was present. That made the eagle more susceptible to more magic, so Mel could cast fireball, if you will. Similar to the way she describes her magics being more powerful at the Wall, magic begets or enhances more magic.

Or it was a trick.

[Ser Leftwich]

I got questions about the Winter Court, and Others.

Winter court exists as Children, Giants, Trees, Others? But Craster's gods are not the trees, thusly not the children. So the Children and Others can't be on the same side, right? Why does Craster call them gods, and claim he's holy? This means that his mother told him they were gods (right? but then why isn't he an Other?), or I guess someone else who remembers the last sighting of the Others (not in Craster's lifetime?) calls them gods. But why Gods? There not loving like the seven, or magical like the Trees, just scary, right?

This was discussed at length in an earlier Heresy, with lots of ideas and little conclusion. Including: Craster was just killing his sons, Craster was sacrificing according to some old practice that he did not fully understand, and the Cold and Old Gods are the same things (just a language.pronunciation difference), and some others. I will try to track down the discussion.

[Black Crow]

My, this one's had a flying start... and welcome back Fantansy.

There was a nice catch on the tradition that Sidhe and other Faerie folk needed to be invited in; I'd forgotton that one, but its exactly what we were discussing earlier about the Horn of Winter - the Others/Sidhe can't cross the Wall unless they're invited in.

Othor and Jafer were famously carried through the wall, but that was an individual invitation, personal to them. Blowing the Horn of Winter on the other hand will be a general invitation to all of the Sidhe.

[HouseLark]

Since the eagle was being warged, magic was present. That made the eagle more susceptible to more magic, so Mel could cast fireball, if you will. Similar to the way she describes her magics being more powerful at the Wall, magic begets or enhances more magic.

Or it was a trick.

This is probably a side issue but I wondered about that as well since I thought the point about Lightbringer was that Mel produced light but not heat. My interpretation of that was that she could create the illusion of fire but not fire itself.

Oh good that you mention this. I read about changelings in the Nordic folklore way back but forgot to post about it.

When a child is taken from humans and a changeling put in it's place, the human child is treated well if the changeling is. If the human family treats the changeling child badly, the human child gets the same treatment. That could be relevant considering Craster's boys and if there are Sidhe changelings in Westeros too.

Doesn't this only become relevant if there is an exchange of children; as far as we know it's a one-way "transaction" between the Others and humans (Craster). That said, I have to believe that now those sacrifices by Craster have come to an end there will be consequences.

BTW, love this thread, I'm annoyed I didn't notice the Heresy threads earlier...

[Black Crow]

Welcome back FanTasy, you were missed! Nice picture of that Dragon Sidhe.

About the show look of the Others, we have been discussing if they look tree-like. Like an old old gnarled tree. Personally I think they looked more like extremely old humans, who's bodies has not become weak but the skin show their age.

The thing that made me think of them looking like trees was that in the Season 1 bluray there are pictures of the Children [ETA: and the tree-faces] that looked quite similar to how the Others looked in the Season 2 finale. But how they looked in the show and how GRRM described them to the artist of the Graphic novel differs a lot, which makes things more tricky... Which is more canon?

I would think that the show producers had a good grip on how GRRM intended for the Others to look but perhaps not. The mail sent to the artist seems like it should be more accurate and that lines up pretty well with your picture.

What struck me about the show was that although the Others/Sidhe as represented on the screen were not quite as GRRM has advertised both in the book and that famous email, they were a distinct improvement nevertheless on the shaggy bear of series one. The absence of stealth armour was an obvious disappointment and nor were they beautiful... however the face I thought wasn't so much very old man as Weirwood.

[HouseLark]

My, this one's had a flying start... and welcome back Fantansy.

There was a nice catch on the tradition that Sidhe and other Faerie folk needed to be invited in; I'd forgotton that one, but its exactly what we were discussing earlier about the Horn of Winter - the Others/Sidhe can't cross the Wall unless they're invited in.

Othor and Jafer were famously carried through the wall, but that was an individual invitation, personal to them. Blowing the Horn of Winter on the other hand will be a general invitation to all of the Sidhe.

Which kind of raises another point that may have been discussed earlier: could the Others pass for humans, if as many think, Craster's children become Others? I guess our picture of White Walkers is determined by the TV show now, but GRRM never describes them as emaciated, he said they were close to Sidhe which were famously beautiful. Plus the Night's King fell in love with an Other and it's hard to see him being enchanted by an emaciated creature of sinew and bone. If, and it's a big if, they can pass for human could one or more of them have mixed with Wildlings and passed through the Wall by Jon's invitation?

[Black Crow]

BTW, love this thread, I'm annoyed I didn't notice the Heresy threads earlier...

Ah well, we have a reputation...

As to exchanging Changelings, I agree it doesn't seem to be happening with Craster, but Ramsay Snow/Bolton is behaving a lot like how the Others/Sidhe are portrayed in Old Nan's stories.

[DragonSpawn]

Since the eagle was being warged, magic was present. That made the eagle more susceptible to more magic, so Mel could cast fireball, if you will. Similar to the way she describes her magics being more powerful at the Wall, magic begets or enhances more magic.

Or it was a trick.

Given that warging is the only way we have seen people interact with animals at a distance... Was Mel not just fire-warging the hellcrow? Maybe different blood has a different affect when u warg? Ice warging preserves the body and soul... But fire-warging consumes both... Raises an interesting point about whether arya could warg a fire dragon without this being suicide..?

[Black Crow]

Just harking back a moment to Heresy 14 and the Starks in the Crypts...

There is a pretty obvious reason why Bran doesn't name the early Kings; those who were Kings of Winter. Apart from the fact they're the scary looking ones, if the Starks of Winterfell are descended from the younger brother of the Nights King and if he was the last of the Kings of Winter who owed fealty to the Sidhe, then not only he but all his other kindred are going to be written out of the story, records erased and all that. They're the mad relatives in the attic we don't talk about.

Lets just start off with young Stark of Winterfell, the first King in the North.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Just harking back a moment to Heresy 14 and the Starks in the Crypts...

There is a pretty obvious reason why Bran doesn't name the early Kings; those who were Kings of Winter. Apart from the fact they're the scary looking ones, if the Starks of Winterfell are descended from the younger brother of the Nights King and if he was the last of the Kings of Winter who owed fealty to the Sidhe, then not only he but all his other kindred are going to be written out of the story, records erased and all that. They're the mad relatives in the attic we don't talk about.

Lets just start off with young Stark of Winterfell, the first King in the North.

Wait. let me start earlier. Why would the King bow to the Sidhe? Itsn't the King... the King?

[Black Crow]

There's Kings and there's High Kings... and there's the Sidhe :cool4:

[Gingerly Grumkin]

There's Kings and there's High Kings... and there's the Sidhe :cool4:

Then the Others are truly gods. It's not King in the North that's sketchy and wolfish it's King of Winter. A King is above everything except God, but since the Children and Trees aren't gods, they bow to Stark I don't understand why the Sidhe wouldn't as well

[Black Crow]

I’ve spoken before about the story of Bael the Bard being a classic changeling tale, and in passing mentioned the ballad of Tam Lin. As we’re at the start of new thread it seems like a good opportunity to introduce him properly:

The woods of Carterhaugh [in the Scottish borders] are guarded by Tam Lin, who demands payment of all maidens who pass through, of their virginity. A maiden named Janet travels to Carterhaugh and picks a rose, causing Tam Lin to appear. He questions her presence, to which she relies that Carterhaugh belongs to her father. Nevertheless the inevitable happens and she returns home pregnant, much to the concern of the household. She states that her lover is elfin, and then returns to Carterhaugh, once again encountering Tam Lin. He reveals he is not elfin, but a mortal captured by the queen of Faerie, and that he may be sacrificied to hell as part of the faerie tithe. He then details how she can save him, if she will undergo a trial on Halloween night. She must pull him from his horse as the Sidhe go trooping over Carter Bar, and hold onto him as he is transformed into various beasts, and when he regains his own naked shape she must cover him with her green mantle and he will be free. This she succeeds in doing to the annoyance of the Queen of Faerie, but as they have played it by the rules they are free to depart.

The ballad itself can be found at:

http://tam-lin.org/front.html

Obviously enough the stories of Bael and Tam Lin are not the same and differ in significant details, but the Rose and the Child are common to both (the hint of warging is intriguing too) and I suggest Tam Lin provides a strong pointer once again to the Sidhe connection.