Heresy 15

[Alarum]

Now blowing the horn three times to summon the Others/Sidhe...

I think the horn's power to summon Others is entirely possible as there may be a more symmetrical relationship between the Horn of Winter and the Dragon Horn than we are perhaps affording. In the latter case the horn is used to bind dragons but requires someone with the blood of Valyria to withstand the ensuing burn. It would be a tidy parallel to have Winter’s horn require a master with old, cold blood for it to properly function and serve to bind the destructive forces from the heart of winter.

So we essentially have the Others filling the role of the Ice Dragon and they have been to this point unbridled, claiming modest casualties a la that Meereenese shepherd’s daughter.

[Ser Leftwich]

Just out of curiosity - has anyone tried to define the different types of magic and their pro's and con's? I get stuck at the first hurdle... defining what types of magic there are? e.g. Ice or Moon magic? Fire or Sun magic? How is it that Bran can use the magic of the weirwoods to get a birds eye view of the world? Where is his POV from? The Wind? A Dragon? It's all so confusing! How do you guys break-it down so it makes sense?

I have always just thought of all of it just as magic. No ice or sun or fire, just magic and the more you give up, the more you get: blood, an eye, some aspect of the Pact, etc.

[DragonSpawn]

I imagine that's always going to be a problem. Mr. Martin never wanted anything clearly defined, he likes magic to be mysterious and unknowable, something from beyond. Lovecraft kind of stuff.

Well it's definately beyond me :) .. magic aside i'm still having a bit of trouble getting my head around the summer and winter courts... in the HotU Dany is told to 'Drink from the cup of Ice... Drink from the cup of Fire...' Sounds like a hint that they work together?

[Francis Buck]

I have always just thought of all of it just as magic. No ice or sun or fire, just magic and the more you give up, the more you get: blood, an eye, some aspect of the Pact, etc.

This here. I don't think there are actually "categories" of magic, per se. It's all the same stuff, just used in different ways. I think the various people's tendency to think of magic as "fire" or "old gods" or "ice" is more because of the particular religions associated with it, rather than being truly different in and of themselves. I mean even if you try to break it down, all of the abilities afforded by magic are similar, if not identical:

Prophecy/future-telling - greendreams, firereading, blood magic (Maggy used blood to see Cersei's future)

Resurrection - R'hllor, the Others, blood magic (the witch that "saved" Khal Drogo)

Glamouring - Faceless Men, Melisandre's rubies, possibly Blood Raven

Aside from warging and the shadow babies, most of the magic used is just a variation on a similar recurring concept. And a large portion of involves the use of blood or sacrifice.

[hotweaselsoup]

This here. I don't think there are actually "categories" of magic, per se. It's all the same stuff, just used in different ways. I think the various people's tendency to think of magic as "fire" or "old gods" or "ice" is more because of the particular religions associated with it, rather than being truly different in and of themselves. I mean even if you try to break it down, all of the abilities afforded by magic are similar, if not identical:

Prophecy/future-telling - greendreams, firereading, blood magic (Maggy used blood to see Cersei's future)

Resurrection - R'hllor, the Others, blood magic (the witch that "saved" Khal Drogo)

Glamouring - Faceless Men, Melisandre's rubies, possibly Blood Raven

Aside from warging and the shadow babies, most of the magic used is just a variation on a similar recurring concept. And a large portion of involves the use of blood or sacrifice.

I very much agree. Same melody, different instruments :) (Ravel's Boléro, in a way.)

[7V3N]

I have speculated that all magic in some way blood magic (either from your blood [greensight/warg] or anothers [Mel's burnings, the leaches, etc.]). But I think GRRM has at least hit a theme that magic has great potential, but it always limited due its requirement for sacrifice.

Also, if Westeros was covered in forestation in the time of the COTF, why is Dorne now a desert? Is it from smashing the arm, or is it the magic within the seasons? The Others were pushed so far North and Winter went with them. Perhaps Westeros used to have that seasonal balance before the FM. This could be why Braavos is misty (representing the cloudiness in which religion truly rules there) and the East seems to be much hotter, where the Reds are dominant. I am sure I am restating things that have been said a million times.

I woke up with this thought stuck in my head (it is off topic, but TBH I cannot stand many more threads than the Heresies due to how argumentative and nonsensical they have become. Also, since GoT is mainstream, trolls have made their way here.):

Rhaegar thought he was the PWWP for a while, but then changed his mind to Aegon, deciding it was not himself. Perhaps he realized that he is instead AA, and Aegon was PWWP. That brings up Lyanna. "There must be another..." Jon, Lightbringer, the sword in the darkness. Lyanna's life was given up (and perhaps willingly, like Nissa Nissa) to birth Jon, whose (assume R+L=J) parents represent the Houses of ice and fire. With Lyanna/Nissa Nissa' death, Jon/Lightbringer was forged, covered in blood from "tempering". Jon is now in the Night's Watch, which many have made good arguments is Lightbringer itself. The dragon must have 3 heads--Rhaegar (AA), Aegon (PWWP), and Jon (LB). Thoughts?

ETA: Almost forgot! IIRC, the ships from Eastwatch report "dead things" in the water at Hardhome, correct? The letter is really simple, IIRC. Anybody got a quote?

[Black Crow]

Between sleep and work I'm finding it hard to keep up the pace on this particular version of the thread... :cheers:

Nevertheless, I have been doing some more of that dangerous thinking thing, and specifically thinking about possible links between the Children/Singers and the Others/Sidhe - prompted by the way that Season 2 Walker has a face like the ones carved in the weirwoods, or more particularly the heart trees.

Why are the faces there?

The reason I pose the question is because judging by what Bloodraven tells Bran and by his own experiences both with the tree and warging, the faces aren't necessarily required to allow Greenseers to look at what's going on or been going on. Its also interesting that almost the first thing the Wildlings do once they're below the Wall is start carving faces in any available tree.

Now we've discussed before how the Singers and the Sidhe seem to represent two linked aspects of a single cycle; Sidhe for Winter and Death - Singers for Spring and Renewal. The faces suggest that the First Men were aware of this duality and carved the faces into the trees in acknowledgement of it. In Celtic mythology the Green Man is represented as having a face made up of the green leaves of spring and in Gaelic the same word GLAS can mean both green and grey. Thus, using the same word you can have the green man of spring/life and the grey man of winter/death.

The Wildlings carving the faces below the Wall may not therefore be trying to link with the Children/Singers but trying to re-establish the protection they may have enjoyed at home by carving the faces of the Sidhe. Its also worth remembering in this context, Quohorin Halfhand's comment about the trees having eyes again. That's got nothing to do with the Children because we know they've been around and active all the time, but if the faces in the trees are linked to the Sidhe that's a different matter entirely.

[7V3N]

At Whitetree:

The children of the forest could speak to the dead, it's said.

I am not sure if this is a hint at warging the dead, or a collective consciousness in the weirwoods--a "second life" we saw Varamyr take, but the Children put themselves in the trees when losing their true bodies--idea.

[bloodymime]

ETA: Almost forgot! IIRC, the ships from Eastwatch report "dead things" in the water at Hardhome, correct? The letter is really simple, IIRC. Anybody got a quote?

"At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven aground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms. From Talon, by hand of Maester Harmune."

[7V3N]

"At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven aground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms. From Talon, by hand of Maester Harmune."

Thanks bloodymime! Interesting the wights/Others would not attack the wildlings. I imagine eating the dead would prevent them from being brought back at wights (what a stomach ache that'd be!), so why would the Others not stop the wildlings from lessening their potential strength, and by doing so increase their own?

[Ser Leftwich]

snip

Why are the faces there?

snip

The timing of when the faces were first carved in the trees might be important, granted it is in the hazy past. The given history has the Pact agreed to on the Isle of Faces which is in the God's Eye lake.

Perhaps the faces were added to the trees as a kind of anthropomorphizing of the trees. A sacred tree with a face is easier to relate to than a tree without a face, in terms of religious practices, weirwood or not. At the time, the First Men were just taking this up.

Extended from that, I think that the CotF also started to teach the greendreamers and greenseers of the First Men around this same time, (see also my old theory of proto-maesters) so then, shortly after they took up the CotF faith, the First Men practitioners had humans in the weirnet. The faces also made it easier for the new greenseer humans to use the weirwoods.

[Uncat]

Continuing from yesterday evening: The story of what might have happen in the North between the Long Night and the Night's King events.

Part three (please find part 1 in post #54 and part 2 in post #58)

From the coming of the Andals to the age of the new Kings in the North

The King of Winter could keep the Andals out. But the endless wars bore heavy weights on the North with its scarce population. Yet the Kings of Winter stayed true to their alliance with the Children and the White people.

But their power began to wanish. Lords and men in the southern half of the kingdom began to question that alliance. Again and again the Andals would offer peace to men, women and children in the North. All they asked in return, was to be allowed in, in order to hunt all others out of the realms of man.

And what gnawed even more on the power of the Kings of Winter was the fact, that they were loosing their magic. Their most important allies, the White people could not interfere, because Winter - the real Winter the White people needs - did not touch the Neck anymore.

Ever since the Andals came, the Winters had grown shorter and milder while the Summers grew longer. And how would the humans in the North fail to notice this? Who wants to fight for a King of Winter who is in with some terrible unhuman allies and powers, while he gets promissed long peacefull and sweet summerdays instead of the long night of winter?

The time and the day came, when a young Stark in Winterfell saw, what he had to do for his family to keep the power in the North. He changed sides and started to rally the Lords of the North around him. His promisse was, to end the power of Winter, of Night and Darkness in the North. In return, the nine leading Lords acclaimed him as their new King, the King in the North.

Appart from the Lords of the North, he seeked support with another group of men. When the Andals had swept over the kingdoms of the south, not only the Children and the others had retreated north. By and by a growing group of uprooted men and their families had seeked refugy in the last stronghold of the old gods. To them and their still home and landless offsprings he promissed the lands, the King of Winter reigned beyond the Wall which up to now were forbidden to men. Joramum was their leader and while the Stark of Winterfell was acclaimed as King in the North, he styled himself as the King beyond the Wall.

v

The Stark treated with the Andals and finaly an agreement was made. The Andals would be allowed in and allowed to chase all the others to the far north. But the North would remain what it was, the Starks would be the kings and the people would be allowed to either adopt the ways and believes of the Andals - or not. No humans following the Old Gods and no Weirwoods were to be harmed.

And so it happened, that the warrior brotherhoods of the Andals swept north while the Stark of Winterfell along with his Lords and Joramum made his move.

The Last King of Winter was brought down, the Stark was procclaimed as the new King, Joramum was allowed through the Wall. Then the Starkes and the warrior brothers closed up the gate behind Joramums people and formed up the Night's Watch along the Wall.

This happened, because for once nobody could tell if and when the "The Others" - the White people and the other non human races would try to strike back. But much more then this, both the Starks and the Brothers wanted to keep Joramums people out there. Because for the Kings in the North the uprooted people meant trouble while for the Brothers of the Watch the worshipes of the Old Gods were the enemy, too.

And so for sevenhundred years, the Starks and their "Legion Estranger" would keep the Wall agains the many attempts of wouldbe successors of Joramum to make their way back south.

Then in Essos Valyria broke down, the Targaryens came and it all started to change once more.

[Uncat]

Well it's definately beyond me :) .. magic aside i'm still having a bit of trouble getting my head around the summer and winter courts... in the HotU Dany is told to 'Drink from the cup of Ice... Drink from the cup of Fire...' Sounds like a hint that they work together?

the cup thing I have missed. Does that mean, that she is the one to get in touch with both ice and fire? Has it ever been discussed?

[Uncat]

This here. I don't think there are actually "categories" of magic, per se. It's all the same stuff, just used in different ways. I think the various people's tendency to think of magic as "fire" or "old gods" or "ice" is more because of the particular religions associated with it, rather than being truly different in and of themselves. I mean even if you try to break it down, all of the abilities afforded by magic are similar, if not identical:

Prophecy/future-telling - greendreams, firereading, blood magic (Maggy used blood to see Cersei's future)

Resurrection - R'hllor, the Others, blood magic (the witch that "saved" Khal Drogo)

Glamouring - Faceless Men, Melisandre's rubies, possibly Blood Raven

Aside from warging and the shadow babies, most of the magic used is just a variation on a similar recurring concept. And a large portion of involves the use of blood or sacrifice.

:agree:

Make plough, make sword, make gun, make spoon. It is all iron but brought into differenz forms and different alloys for different uses.

Use magic for this and for that, use moonlight or mix it with blood. Different purposes, different outcomes, different aloys but basicly the same stuff

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Continuing from yesterday evening: The story of what might have happen in the North between the Long Night and the Night's King events.

Part three (please find part 1 in post #54 and part 2 in post #58)

From the coming of the Andals to the age of the new Kings in the North

The King of Winter could keep the Andals out. But the endless wars bore heavy weights on the North with its scarce population. Yet the Kings of Winter stayed true to their alliance with the Children and the White people.

But their power began to wanish. Lords and men in the southern half of the kingdom began to question that alliance. Again and again the Andals would offer peace to men, women and children in the North. All they asked in return, was to be allowed in, in order to hunt all others out of the realms of man.

And what gnawed even more on the power of the Kings of Winter was the fact, that they were loosing their magic. Their most important allies, the White people could not interfere, because Winter - the real Winter the White people needs - did not touch the Neck anymore.

Ever since the Andals came, the Winters had grown shorter and milder while the Summers grew longer. And how would the humans in the North fail to notice this? Who wants to fight for a King of Winter who is in with some terrible unhuman allies and powers, while he gets promissed long peacefull and sweet summerdays instead of the long night of winter?

The time and the day came, when a young Stark in Winterfell saw, what he had to do for his family to keep the power in the North. He changed sides and started to rally the Lords of the North around him. His promisse was, to end the power of Winter, of Night and Darkness in the North. In return, the nine leading Lords acclaimed him as their new King, the King in the North.

Appart from the Lords of the North, he seeked support with another group of men. When the Andals had swept over the kingdoms of the south, not only the Children and the others had retreated north. By and by a growing group of uprooted men and their families had seeked refugy in the last stronghold of the old gods. To them and their still home and landless offsprings he promissed the lands, the King of Winter reigned beyond the Wall which up to now were forbidden to men. Joramum was their leader and while the Stark of Winterfell was acclaimed as King in the North, he styled himself as the King beyond the Wall.

v

The Stark treated with the Andals and finaly an agreement was made. The Andals would be allowed in and allowed to chase all the others to the far north. But the North would remain what it was, the Starks would be the kings and the people would be allowed to either adopt the ways and believes of the Andals - or not. No humans following the Old Gods and no Weirwoods were to be harmed.

And so it happened, that the warrior brotherhoods of the Andals swept north while the Stark of Winterfell along with his Lords and Joramum made his move.

The Last King of Winter was brought down, the Stark was procclaimed as the new King, Joramum was allowed through the Wall. Then the Starkes and the warrior brothers closed up the gate behind Joramums people and formed up the Night's Watch along the Wall.

This happened, because for once nobody could tell if and when the "The Others" - the White people and the other non human races would try to strike back. But much more then this, both the Starks and the Brothers wanted to keep Joramums people out there. Because for the Kings in the North the uprooted people meant trouble while for the Brothers of the Watch the worshipes of the Old Gods were the enemy, too.

And so for sevenhundred years, the Starks and their "Legion Estranger" would keep the Wall agains the many attempts of wouldbe successors of Joramum to make their way back south.

Then in Essos Valyria broke down, the Targaryens came and it all started to change once more.

Awesome. However, The North was never taken because they were able to throw back the Andals at the neck via Moat Cailin every time they pushed. So I don't think the Andals would have factored into the King of Winter changing giving up their pact. Perhaps hubris and indifference to an old pact more so than pressure from the south? Although I suppose you could argue that a longer summer in the especially harsh north would allow them to fight off the Andals more effectively since they'd have more time for harvest.

I like the mention of the 9 lords as well. You chose this number because of the 9 iron spikes on the crown?

[7V3N]

Continuing from yesterday evening: The story of what might have happen in the North between the Long Night and the Night's King events.

Part three (please find part 1 in post #54 and part 2 in post #58)

From the coming of the Andals to the age of the new Kings in the North

The King of Winter could keep the Andals out. But the endless wars bore heavy weights on the North with its scarce population. Yet the Kings of Winter stayed true to their alliance with the Children and the White people.

But their power began to wanish. Lords and men in the southern half of the kingdom began to question that alliance. Again and again the Andals would offer peace to men, women and children in the North. All they asked in return, was to be allowed in, in order to hunt all others out of the realms of man.

And what gnawed even more on the power of the Kings of Winter was the fact, that they were loosing their magic. Their most important allies, the White people could not interfere, because Winter - the real Winter the White people needs - did not touch the Neck anymore.

Ever since the Andals came, the Winters had grown shorter and milder while the Summers grew longer. And how would the humans in the North fail to notice this? Who wants to fight for a King of Winter who is in with some terrible unhuman allies and powers, while he gets promissed long peacefull and sweet summerdays instead of the long night of winter?

The time and the day came, when a young Stark in Winterfell saw, what he had to do for his family to keep the power in the North. He changed sides and started to rally the Lords of the North around him. His promisse was, to end the power of Winter, of Night and Darkness in the North. In return, the nine leading Lords acclaimed him as their new King, the King in the North.

Appart from the Lords of the North, he seeked support with another group of men. When the Andals had swept over the kingdoms of the south, not only the Children and the others had retreated north. By and by a growing group of uprooted men and their families had seeked refugy in the last stronghold of the old gods. To them and their still home and landless offsprings he promissed the lands, the King of Winter reigned beyond the Wall which up to now were forbidden to men. Joramum was their leader and while the Stark of Winterfell was acclaimed as King in the North, he styled himself as the King beyond the Wall.

v

The Stark treated with the Andals and finaly an agreement was made. The Andals would be allowed in and allowed to chase all the others to the far north. But the North would remain what it was, the Starks would be the kings and the people would be allowed to either adopt the ways and believes of the Andals - or not. No humans following the Old Gods and no Weirwoods were to be harmed.

And so it happened, that the warrior brotherhoods of the Andals swept north while the Stark of Winterfell along with his Lords and Joramum made his move.

The Last King of Winter was brought down, the Stark was procclaimed as the new King, Joramum was allowed through the Wall. Then the Starkes and the warrior brothers closed up the gate behind Joramums people and formed up the Night's Watch along the Wall.

This happened, because for once nobody could tell if and when the "The Others" - the White people and the other non human races would try to strike back. But much more then this, both the Starks and the Brothers wanted to keep Joramums people out there. Because for the Kings in the North the uprooted people meant trouble while for the Brothers of the Watch the worshipes of the Old Gods were the enemy, too.

And so for sevenhundred years, the Starks and their "Legion Estranger" would keep the Wall agains the many attempts of wouldbe successors of Joramum to make their way back south.

Then in Essos Valyria broke down, the Targaryens came and it all started to change once more.

I like the idea, but the Stark words just lose their sense to me-- Winter is Coming. Why would the family that betrayed Winter still have such words. Something like Spring Shall Come would make more sense.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I like the idea, but the Stark words just lose their sense to me-- Winter is Coming. Why would the family that betrayed Winter still have such words. Something like Spring Shall Come would make more sense.

Because the North remembers =)

[Uncat]

"At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven aground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms. From Talon, by hand of Maester Harmune."

This was discussed before but it hasn't been settled. The way he interjects those two sentences about the dead things is funny. Overall the letter is a clear, sharp an short account of events and losses. But the two "dead things" sentences are almost completly unrelated to that.

The first has a week formal connection to the sentence before b the word dead. The other has non.

When I first read it, I connected it to the followin sentence: Dead things in the water, so please send help by land. But that not it. The send hlep sencene connects to the following which explains, that the sea is to bad to navegate.

So what do those pieces mean. Wh did he not just simple write "surrounded by wights". It is not, that he would not know about wights or needs to describe them.

[Ser Leftwich]

"At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven aground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms. From Talon, by hand of Maester Harmune."

There is also necessary shortness of raven messages that adds to the tension of this message. Stop.

Like a telegram. Stop.

Granted, the order of the passages is odd. Stop.

[Caris]

...This is brilliant. I am now a heretic.

What I like about this whole theory is the scope of it--many other theories are disappointingly mundane and political-intriguey, and what the series really needs is an epic, mythic conclusion. This pushes it there.

This was discussed before but it hasn't been settled. The way he interjects those two sentences about the dead things is funny. Overall the letter is a clear, sharp an short account of events and losses. But the two "dead things" sentences are almost completly unrelated to that.

I'm so glad others have noticed this!!! It doesn't fit at all... I'm not sure what's happening, either. My personal crackpot theory is magical insertion--the writer was taken over by something and put in those words where they (sort of) fit--but that might be a bit far-fetched.