Heresy 16

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Thanks for pointing me towards it. It was interesting enough in itself, but yes there was an awful lot of emphasis on how the history of Westeros as we were originally told, aint necessarily so.

YESSSS.... an agreement not follow by a "But," 10 points for me!

On the timelines: the Wall is certainly (or at least as certainly as we can figure it out) older than 1,000 years, whether its 8,000 years old is still open to question.

Just for the sake of keeping an open mind I have to wonder just how high the Wall really is in GRRM's imagination. As written its an incredible 700 feet high, yet as I understand it when GRRM saw the 400 foot whitewashed quarry face that doubles for it in the TV version, he's said to have expressed himself and declared he made it way too high.

Now we know that he was inspired by Hadrian's Wall. This is calculated to have been in the region of 20 feet high. GRRM obviously wanted something much bigger, so lets say 100 feet high - five times as high as Hadrian's one. The Great Wall of China averages 30 feet, so our "alternative" Wall would be just over three times as high. The point being that such a structure would be as massively impressive as the one created by GRRM, but just possibly within human capacity.

I thought I replied to this, but I see I did not attach it to any posts. I can certainly go along with this. The 700ft x 300mile x 100 ft wall is truly outside the realm of human construction capacity probably in 2012, much less in Westeros 7700 - 2000 BeforeLanding... moves it from Absolutely Undeniably Indisputably NOT Possible, to Almost Certainly NOT Possible.

If that's reduced to a 200ftx300milex70ft wall, it's still a daunting total mass to assemble, but is moving much closer to the realm of possibility.... being able to quantify any external 'assistance' would of course aid my calculations considerably... but that's not going to be happening any time soon/ever.

[alienarea]

Thought of today: Could Stannis be the mummer's dragon? He has some Targaryen blood and IMHO Melisandre would qualify as a mummer. And she is a shadowbinder, probably known in Essos (with her real face?). We need to look at Melisandre.

[Black Crow]

Craster Curse....

From the story - we know Craster is an older man, say between 50 & 65. He is a bastard son of a Night's Watch man from the Shadow Tower. His mother once came to the Wall to show him his son and was run off. Many years later, we have Craster in his keep and with his wives and daughters. We are also told that Craster bears a heavy curse - in Ygritte's and most Wildlings opinions but still Mance was going to include him and his family in the Great Trek South...

Craster can be supposed to have spent the first 15 years of his life with his mother. It is doubtful that she lived alone in the woods so Craster must have been raised in a village, he may also have siblings and probably cousins from his mother's family. At some point between the age of 13 to 19 years, Craster steals his first wife and starts working on a family. No one took his bride away from him and she didn't slit his throat so her family must have been ok with it... This points to Craster not yet being judging as being "cursed".

I suggesting that Craster grew up quite normally and may even have had a different kind of life before we met him. He may have stayed in his mother's village and raised his family- sons and daughters and that a some later point he moved himself and his family away from this village and off into the woods by himself. Maybe when he took his first daughter as a wife? Or when he gave his first baby/son to the Cold.

I'm thinking someone had to help Craster build his Keep, which interestingly is built atop a mud hill ( or shit hill<according to my fav ranger) It could be an earthen defense made by Craster or it could have been there before him. So at that point, Craster may have had young sons, possible even pre-teen aged to help him build or at least, someone had to have helped him.

So, if Craster took his first wife at age 15 and produced a daughter and then took the girl as his wife when she reached the age of 15, that takes us forward 30 years. Craster is now between 30-40 years old and presumably living on is own with his wives and children and 20 to 25 years later brings us to current day and Craster is well established in his home/Keep known to the Rangers of the Night's Watch. They even know what he has been doing with his sons. But what started it?

Its one of the good questions, but I'd lean very much to it being an age-old rather than a recent practice and look back beyond the 50 years or so under discussion.

From the description the keep is built on an artificial mound rather than a natural feature, but there's nothing to indicate that Craster himself built the keep all by himself with a bit of help from the wives. None of them mention building it, willingly or otherwise and its Craster who is protecting them. You can argue of course that they need protecting from Craster, but its his keep not theirs.

The business of the curse is also interesting. Although Gilly says that a mother who abandons her child is accursed, Craster isn't a mother, so the curse is more likely an inherited one. His father did the same and his father before him, perhaps all the way back.

The obvious problem with that theory is that Craster is (or was) still with us, but there are two clues here.

First there's Gilly's statement that the White Walkers have been coming more often of late, hence offering them mutton if their are no sons available. We do know that with the cold winds rising the Sidhe are indeed abroad, but it might have been a different story 50 years ago. Only the first born - or the spare - might have been taken in times past and its only because they're now coming so frequently that all Craster's sons have been taken.

Secondly there's the story of Craster's mother coming knocking on the gate, looking for his supposed ranger father. Was his father really a ranger or was she trying to do a Gilly, claiming that he was in order to escape the boy's brothers? Be that as it may they tell her to begone, in contrast to another boy, Mance, who was raised as a ranger. I have my doubts therefore about his parentage, but in any case, perhaps the attempt to get him through the Wall did save him if he and his mother were away from home when the brothers came knocking - and settled for some roast lamb instead.

[alienarea]

Its one of the good questions, but I'd lean very much to it being an age-old rather than a recent practice and look back beyond the 50 years or so under discussion.

From the description the keep is built on an artificial mound rather than a natural feature, but there's nothing to indicate that Craster himself built the keep all by himself with a bit of help from the wives. None of them mention building it, willingly or otherwise and its Craster who is protecting them. You can argue of course that they need protecting from Craster, but its his keep not theirs.

The business of the curse is also interesting. Although Gilly says that a mother who abandons her child is accursed, Craster isn't a mother, so the curse is more likely an inherited one. His father did the same and his father before him, perhaps all the way back.

The obvious problem with that theory is that Craster is (or was) still with us, but there are two clues here.i

First there's Gilly's statement that the White Walkers have been coming more often of late, hence offering them mutton if their are no sons available. We do know that with the cold winds rising the Sidhe are indeed abroad, but it might have been a different story 50 years ago. Only the first born - or the spare - might have been taken in times past and its only because they're now coming so frequently that all Craster's sons have been taken.

Secondly there's the story of Craster's mother coming knocking on the gate, looking for his supposed ranger father. Was his father really a ranger or was she trying to do a Gilly, claiming that he was in order to escape the boy's brothers? Be that as it may they tell her to begone, in contrast to another boy, Mance, who was raised as a ranger. I have my doubts therefore about his parentage, but in any case, perhaps the attempt to get him through the Wall did save him if he and his mother were away from home when the brothers came knocking - and settled for some roast lamb instead.

Good call about Craster's curse being inherited - maybe the practice is the curse that got inherited and Craster was picked to fill that task?

So maybe he did not inherit the curse from his father but there was always someone like Craster in this place and when his predecessor died he was chosen to continue?

I am also wondering whether Mance could be the firstborn of Craster who was spared because the WW weren't that active back then?

[Stark@heart]

Interesting thoughts Black Crow - Was Craster truely fathered by a Crow or was it an attempt to flee, like Gilly?

From the text we have so far, we are shown the re-emergence of the White Walkers. Have they been "sleeping" since the Long Night or have they only contained their "ranging" to the far off Lands of Always Winter? We don't know yet.

My brain has been trying to come up with reasons why they are here now or have come so far south now and the best I can come up with ties into the Dragons / Blood of Old Vayleria/ Fire loosing the Throne / dominion over the lands of the Westeros.

Aegon declared his dominance over the 7 Kingdoms 300 years ago and IIRC we are also told his family came to Westeros about 100 years before that - so that gives us around 400 years of Dragons of one type or another residing in the Realm of Westeros and that ended around 15- 20 years ago with the death of Aerys and the last true Children of the Dragon/ Old Blood leaving.

Prior to the Dragons arriving or claiming the kingdoms - I argue that the Starks of the North - the undeafeated Kings of Winter - held dominion over the lands of Westeros and this is what kept the White Walkers away. The Kings and Kingdoms that were constantly at war with each other and forming and re-forming their Realms below the Neck were never a threat to the rule of the Starks. All comers were thrown back and the Lands that belonged to the Kings of Winter never breached so the Pact that was made long ago - whatever it was - held.

Then around 300 years ago the Last King of Winter gave up his Kingdom to the Dragons/Fire and since "Fire" was then the ruler of the Lands of the Westeros - it also served to keep the "Cold" at bay until the Dragons/Fire was overthrown and gone from the Kingdom.

At that point, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" takes on more meaning. Like a fail safe. If the new rulers/ Fire is overthrown or defeated - The presence of Starks in Winterfell is enough to hold back the White Walkers.

The fact that the WW are seen before any Starks have left Winterfell throws a monkeywrench into my thinking but could be explained by the Walkers/Old Gods also being able to "see" into the future and knowing that Ned and all his heirs would soon be gone from Winterfell and scattered through out the Realm that their best chance to conquer the Wall and all that lies below had come.

[Black Crow]

I prefer the simpler theory that they are ranging further south because the cold winds are rising, etc. Its Winter. First the rangers are being seen more frequently and soon the Queen of Faerie and her host will come trooping. In Winters past they'll have stayed above the Wall, in the realm of Ice proper, but with no Stark in Winterfell, no King of Winter, they're now free to troop beyond it.

[Stark@heart]

But...

GRRM has stated the seasons are related to magic and not a natural cycle - so something had to set Winter off.

[alienarea]

But...

GRRM has stated the seasons are related to magic and not a natural cycle - so something had to set Winter off.

That goes back to merging White Walkers and Others together.

Maybe there are few WW who are always around ranging, and the Others (Queen of Faerie, Snow White) have been dormant and were awakened at the same time as the dragons. Because the dragons are fire made flesh, the Others are ice made flesh?

That brings us to the question who or what woke the dragons?

[Stark@heart]

Dany was the last Dragon( child of three) and she hatched the fire dragons, with her sacrifices (Drogo, baby and MMD) and her need.

But the power of the Dragons Blood/ Fire was never truly gone from the world, only from the Westeros.

[Black Crow]

But...

GRRM has stated the seasons are related to magic and not a natural cycle - so something had to set Winter off.

Not necessarily, I don't recall the precise words used but GRRM said the imbalance in the seasons was magical, which is presumably why their effect seems to be concentrated if not confined in Westeros. Whatever happened, happened long long ago. It all comes back to this business of not knowing whether the Others come with the Cold or whether they bring the Cold (exactly the same line was used of the Ice Dragon).

Is all this happening because the dragons have finally hatched, or, as is more likely have the dragons hatched because there is enough magic in the world again. Something we discussed a few Heresy chapters ago was that the gates of Faerie open wider at dusk and dawn. If the seasons are magical then the magic is greatest at the change, in this case between Summer and Winter. The Sidhe are on the move, but the increase in magic also means the dragons can hatch and so provide the opportunity to do battle to determine just how long the coming season will last.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I still maintain that Summerhall had something to do with it. Probably will need to wait till the last Dunk and Egg to find out though (that is, if the series ends there, which I believe it should)

[alienarea]

I still maintain that Summerhall had something to do with it. Probably will need to wait till the last Dunk and Egg to find out though (that is, if the series ends there, which I believe it should)

Maybe they succeeded at Summerhall, but with a delay?

[Mance Mance Fancy Pants]

Or there wasnt a delay, just no one wanted to try to wake dragons again after Summerhall, and Dany was the first.

[Efilnikufesin]

Maybe they succeeded at Summerhall, but with a delay?

Maybe, I'm of the firm belief that a soul has to be sacrificed to in essence provide a soul to the dragon. Maybe it is the same with WW/Others, maybe even Greenseers/Weirwoods. Kind of makes you think on why the Wildlings wait to name their children. Possibly some will be given up for sacrifice, Craster may not be the only one who does these sacrifices.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Maybe, I'm of the firm belief that a soul has to be sacrificed to in essence provide a soul to the dragon. Maybe it is the same with WW/Others, maybe even Greenseers/Weirwoods. Kind of makes you think on why the Wildlings wait to name their children. Possibly some will be given up for sacrifice, Craster may not be the only one who does these sacrifices.

I don't think that many Wildlings besides Craster still give these types of sacrifices, seeing as they all kind of despise Craster. However, I think we're in agreement that at one time they did. I'm thinking that it tended to be the younger children of the clan leaders who were sacrificed, and, as they were "noble born," they would have had names close to birth, whereas the nameless orphans, who would, in the future, end up with names like "Hot Pie", would be spared, so an old wives' tale type of thing would have developed about how the ones who weren't named until further into life would survive into adolescence, and with the cross clan breeding that we know exists, the superstition would have spread quickly.

[7V3N]

Two Targaryens died at Summerhall (Egg/Aegon and Duncan the Small), so perhaps their souls are in two of the dragons. Then, Rhaego was used for the third. Then it took the ritual to hatch them.

[Nas]

Just a thought on grayscale surely it is leprosy in the same way that the grey mare is cholera-nothing magical or Wight- like about it. All lepers are shunned and become grey men/ men of stone. Although to be fair leprosy doesn't effect higher cerebral function but how would GRRM know?

Sorry this is relevant to a discussion about 50 posts ago

[Efilnikufesin]

Sorry, off topic question in a way, but not having my book atm, how far away in real time is Ned's execution from the appearance of the Red Sword (comet?)

[Tyryan Lannister]

the read comet is not mentioned until Clash IIRC, so I would tie the comet with the dragons (as Nan does in the books, Osha does it in the TV series). But timeline wise (we do need to remember that Dany's chapters especially do not line up nicely in time with the events of Westeros) it's possible that it all happened at about the same time; it's wholly possible that the dragon's hatch later on the same day as Ned's death.

[DragonSpawn]

My main concern is what Bloodraven has been doing the whole time. If Craster has been making his offerings for so long. Why not have Coldhands take his head off years ago? The timelines for Bloodraven leaving the watch and taking up his weirwood seat and Craster starting to make his offerings overlap. But i wonder by how much? Is it possible that Bloodraven has been lying all along about his motives... Him being the man from the NW who was Crasters father?