Beauty Means Health, or Why it's Okay to say "No" to Tyrion

[Natalie_S]

Let me ask you this - would you consider marrying a multiple murderer or recommend such a person to a friend as a potentially good match? Someone who let people who worked for him walk away completely unpunished when they committed a murder and who organised the burning alive of thousands so he could keep a sadistic psychopath on the throne. Does such person seem like a good husband to you?

We're not talking about RL here. Westeros is a brutal world and anyone who gets through it completely innocent and naive would be a very unrealistic character. In the books we're reading there's a war going on. Even Brienne, the ultimate moral stand, seems to be about to kill Jaime at the end of ADWD.

But, considering the world lives in, what he has been through and the ultimate reasons of his actions, yes, Tyrion does sound like a potentially good match to me.

Jaime has never been in a position where his entire family whiped out Brienne's, nor has he been in a position where he's taken advantage of Brienne's status as a hostage to agree to take part in a forced marraige to her in order to lay claim to Tarth.

As it is, Jaime respects Brienne as an individual, he appreciates her skills and he trusts her. Tyrion does not respect Sansa, he does not respect her skills much (apart from her courtesy which he doesn't like when it's aimed at him) nor does he trust her. He finds her beautiful and he would love for her to love him. He is projecting his wish for well, wishfulfillment, onto Sansa, with no basis to stand on. Brienne is definitely not Jaime's wishfulfillment, far from it. She's in fact often a thorn in his side, she reminds him of things he failed at, she reminds him of how he should be a better person, she reminds him that he needs to make difficult decisions.

I think he respects Sansa for what he can see of her, her courtesy and social skills.

He does admire that, and it's not the courtesy he doesn't appreciate, it's indifference.

This is said many times in Tyrion's case, not just with Sansa, but with Shae too:

For a time she said nothing at all. Tyrion tried to speak of other things, but he met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he'd once walked in the north. Gods be good, he thought wearily as he watched the candle bum down and begin to gutter, how could I let this happen again, after Tysha? Am I as great a fool as my father thinks? Gladly would he have given her the promise she wanted, and gladly walked her back to his own bedchamber on his arm to let her dress in the silks and velvets she loved so much. Had the choice been his, she could have sat beside him at Joffrey's wedding feast, and danced with all the bears she liked. But he could not see her hang.

And even Penny:

“Talking again, are we?” It was better than her usual sullen silence.

Sansa hasn't showed him anything true about her. She barely talks to him. The longest speech she made was about how Bran and Tommen had fought with wooden swords. But Tyrion does respect her, he respects her choice not to consummate her marriage and respects her will to be alone when she wants to, to dance with whomever she wants to and overall her decisions.

For all their marriage, there's like a wall between them, they can't trust each other and they can't communicate. Everything sets them apart: the moment, the age, the war between their families.

But yes, I can't help but wonder what would happen if they met again in other circumstances.

[The Storm Queen]

Only my two cents concerning the OP:

- Every human being has the human right to be treated with respect and dignity. However this does not contain the right to get laid.

For me it is actually as easy as that. Tyrion has every right to bitter when people call him an abomination. He has no right to be bitter about women who do not want to have sex with him.

- Something I dislike about Tyrion is his behaviour towards ugly women like Lollys. It is one thing to not find them desirable but a completly other thing to openly make cruel jokes about their looks. This actually makes me sympathize way less with him than I would otherwise

- I think that Tyrion´s behaviour towards women in general makes it very difficult for a woman to see him as a desirable. he is ugly , yes, but if he´d display more respect towards women and took them more serious I´d argue that enough women might be able to appreciate these traits in a husband. But unfortunately he does not do this at all: Instead he has a rightly deserved reputation as a whoremonger, is known for his cruel comments and the fact that he does not seem to take women seriously very much...

[Fantôme]

The thing is, what Brienne wants should matter. If she feels Jaime is worthy, then he is, regardless of what he's done before. Brienne has shown before that she's not going to accept a suitor she doesn't find worthy, so she's got rather clear rules that if she doesn't want them, they can sod off.

That sounds overly simplistic to me , for Sansa as well as for Brienne. If you have a friend or a relative who is in love with a rapist/murderer , would you think she should marry him because all that matters is that she likes and desires him? I'd say it makes perfect sense to want Sansa to marry a "morally better" person as someone said and has nothing to do with hoping that the deserving hero gets the hot girl (though I do think this is trend in literature and cinema in general). Just that we tend to want people we care about (or presently characters) to end up with "good persons".

[David Selig]

We're not talking about RL here. Westeros is a brutal world and anyone who gets through it completely innocent and naive would be a very unrealistic character. In the books we're reading there's a war going on. Even Brienne, the ultimate moral stand, seems to be about to kill Jaime at the end of ADWD.

But, considering the world lives in, what he has been through and the ultimate reasons of his actions, yes, Tyrion does sound like a potentially good match to me.

So after he killed his supposed big love Shae because she dumped him, murdered his father, ordered Symon made into soup, and raped that slave prostitute in Essos, he still seems a good husband material to you? Why exactly? Because he's funny?

Not everyone in Westeros is a multiple murderer. It's not that brutal, far from it. Surely there are plenty of better options than Tyrion.

There's nothing immoral about killing Jaime, BTW, he deserves death many times over.

[Natalie_S]

So after he killed his supposed big love Shae because she dumped him, murdered his father, ordered Symon made into soup, and raped that slave prostitute in Essos, he still seems a good husband material to you? Why exactly? Because he's funny?

Not everyone in Westeros is a multiple murderer. It's not that brutal, far from it. Surely there are plenty of better options than Tyrion.

There's nothing immoral about killing Jaime, BTW, he deserves death many times over.

Maybe Bran might think so, but surely Brienne has no reasons to do it.

Tyrion didn't kill Shae because he dumped him, neither did he rape that prostitute.

He didn't behave at the highest moral standard in ADWD, but he was having a serious mental and emotional breakdown after he had discovered that his father and his brother (the only person that he trusted and that he believed he loved him for what he was) had conspired to have his wife gangraped and sent away. He had just been on the verge of an execution after a trial where he witnessed that every single person that he had been in contact with wanted to see him dead.

I'm not saying he was justified in doing what he did, but he's only human and it's not that difficult to understand how he must have felt.

And I think that he's good husband material because he's smart, he thinks outside the box, he's not afraid to challenge what everyone else takes for granted, he's adaptable, generous and has the capacity of truly love someone. And sense of humour surely helps too.

As to "not that brutal" I beg to differ: I honestly don't remember ever reading a book settled in a world more brutal than Westeros.

[Lyanna Stark]

That sounds overly simplistic to me , for Sansa as well as for Brienne. If you have a friend or a relative who is in love with a rapist/murderer , would you think she should marry him because all that matters is that she likes and desires him? I'd say it makes perfect sense to want Sansa to marry a "morally better" person as someone said and has nothing to do with hoping that the deserving hero gets the hot girl (though I do think this is trend in literature and cinema in general). Just that we tend to want people we care about (or presently characters) to end up with "good persons".

No, I think my point of view doesn't matter, since I am not involved.

I've had enough people try and meddle in my personal life through the years to know that whomever I choose is my responsibility and my problem, not somebody elses. Even if it's well meaning, it's about respect for a person's choices. Not all choices are good choices, but they should be up to each and every one to make themselves.

Maybe Bran might think so, but surely Brienne has no reasons to do it.

Tyrion didn't kill Shae because he dumped him, neither did he rape that prostitute.

Well, why did he kill her, if not because she dumped him and hurt his pride? He would have been convicted anyway.

I'm also not sure how he didn't rape that prostitute. Do you mean that she gave him meaningful consent? Even if you think he did, I think everyone can agree on that it was pretty horrifying behaviour.

[deleted01]

Late to the party as usual, but:

People actually think that women who reject him are shallow? Wonder if they are willing to date a girl with disabilities or who is enormously fat. Don't be shallow now, guys! :cheers:

What's wrong with people with disabilities? It is absolutely shallow to reject someone based on looks. The OP was fascinating and corresponds very well with Westeros, but in these times it is deemed prejudiced to look at people with disabilities as being different, or less-than-human/normal/whatever.

Speaking for the grotesques, some opinions in this thread have shocked and upset me. Again, the information in the OP is scientifically fascinating and well-written, as well as making sense. But in many ways our societies today do not correspond very well with that of Westeros, and I feel that this prejudice is one of the things that should be (should have been already, I feel) eliminated. Or are we saying that it's okay for the people of Westeros to insult gay people, because being openly gay doesn't result in a good marriage or children?

[Fantôme]

No, I think my point of view doesn't matter, since I am not involved.

I've had enough people try and meddle in my personal life through the years to know that whomever I choose is my responsibility and my problem, not somebody elses. Even if it's well meaning, it's about respect for a person's choices. Not all choices are good choices, but they should be up to each and every one to make themselves.

Er what are you talking about? It's about a fictional character ,of course our opinions don't matter in their choice. And you may notice I used the word "think" not say or do when I talked about RL. I'm saying it's normal to wish for a better person for Brienne and Sansa .

[Lyanna Stark]

Er what are you talking about? It's about a fictional character ,of course our opinions don't matter in their choice.Our opinions don't matter with anything and we still give them. And you may notice I used the word "think" not say or do when I talked about RL. I'm saying it's normal to wish for a better person for Brienne and Sansa .

Why is it "normal"?

It all comes back to the hero points again, that we're wishing for someone with enough hero points. If we're looking at fictional characters as believable, then the same rules should apply to them as does to people in real life: when it comes to attraction, desire and choice, hero points and who's the "better person" are often not what's top on the agenda.

[PatrickStormborn]

Maybe Bran might think so, but surely Brienne has no reasons to do it.

Tyrion didn't kill Shae because he dumped him, neither did he rape that prostitute.

Jaime is an oathbreaker who threw Bran out of a tower. Brienne, if she's now in the service of "Lady Stoneheart", has every reason to kill him.

Tyrion did rape the prostitute. He was also unnecessarily cruel to her, just because she found him repulsive.

[Natalie_S]

Well, why did he kill her, if not because she dumped him and hurt his pride? He would have been convicted anyway.

I'm also not sure how he didn't rape that prostitute. Do you mean that she gave him meaningful consent? Even if you think he did, I think everyone can agree on that it was pretty horrifying behaviour.

I think he killed her because he was completely breaking down at that point.

Now we would call it a crime of passion or perhaps a temporary loss of sanity. But honestly, Tyrion had gone through more mental trauma in those last 12 hours than most people in all their lives.

What happened with that prostitute IMHO was squalid, sad and desolate, but doesn't qualify as rape.

It's probably what most mercenary sex is. Tyrion hadn't experienced it so far, because he was used to be the rich, generous son of the lord of Casterly Rock, and the prostitute in Westeros would go out of their way to keep him pleased and happy, giving him also the illusion of being wanted, and that the relationship was a win-win for both of them.

In Essos he experienced another side of poverty and of what going with whores actually meant: that girl simply did her job without trying too hard to keep that poor, ugly, even hideous client that she had no reason to want back. He used to buy illusions with sex, but he sees what happens when he can't afford the illusions anymore and is just stuck with sex.

[David Selig]

Maybe Bran might think so, but surely Brienne has no reasons to do it.

Tyrion didn't kill Shae because he dumped him, neither did he rape that prostitute.

He didn't behave at the highest moral standard in ADWD, but he was having a serious mental and emotional breakdown after he had discovered that his father and his brother (the only person that he trusted and that he believed he loved him for what he was) had conspired to have his wife gangraped and sent away. He had just been on the verge of an execution after a trial where he witnessed that every single person that he had been in contact with wanted to see him dead.

I'm not saying he was justified in doing what he did, but he's only human and it's not that difficult to understand how he must have felt.

And I think that he's good husband material because he's smart, he thinks outside the box, he's not afraid to challenge what everyone else takes for granted, he's adaptable, generous and has the capacity of truly love someone. And sense of humour surely helps too.

As to "not that brutal" I beg to differ: I honestly don't remember ever reading a book settled in a world more brutal than Westeros.

Brienne, the super righteous knight, who believes in the ideals of protecting the weak and punishing the wicked, has no reason to kill Jaime who crippled a child by pushing him off a tower? Not to mention she's a sworn vassal to Catelyn who wants Jaime dead.

By "not all that brutal" I meant that even in Westeros people who have committed crimes as serious as Tyrion are very much a minority, so we can't use it the excuse "Everyone does it, so it's OK". No, it's not. In fact by Westeros standards Tyrion the kinslayer is the lowest of the low, the most vile type of criminal.

[1234567]

His actions can't be that usual for Westeros. Brienne thinks that Tyrion is said to be the cruelest and evilest of the Lannisters, even worse than the much hated Cersei. Whilst some of that is unfair, Tyrion has never engaged I any sort of PR or tried tone nice to people instead of being snarky.

Heis so far becoming the Richard III of Westeros.

[Fantôme]

Why is it "normal"?

It all comes back to the hero points again, that we're wishing for someone with enough hero points. If we're looking at fictional characters as believable, then the same rules should apply to them as does to people in real life: when it comes to attraction, desire and choice, hero points and who's the "better person" are often not what's top on the agenda.

It's normal because most of the time we don't want someone we care about to be with someone we feel deserve to spend their life in prison. Because we wish for the best for people we love, and it's hard to view a rapist or a murderer as the best.It's as simple as that.To accept != to like, don't you agree ?

Nope , nothing to do with hero point because that implies that we want the hero in question to get what they deserve while we don't have to give a damn about this hero's happiness here.

About real life ,we may disagree on this but I'd rather have a friend or relative marry a normal person she likes rather than a rapist she's crazy about.Doesn't mean I'll necessarily meddle , but I will have an opinion.

[LadyMary]

As fas as I'm aware, people's criticism towards Sansa's shallowness is about those point, yes, and about her ealier view about Beauty equating Morality that, while completely understandable given the way she was brought up, is a tad bit irritating.

Yes, but she quickly learned the hard way that beauty does not equal goodness with Prince Charmless. Being forced to marry an enemy Lannister against her will under threat of death, and having horrible "choices" whether to marry Tyrion or the arguably better-looking Lancel, Sansa married Tyrion because he at least tried to be kind to her and protect her from some fo Joffrey's abuse. Sansa's repulsion to Tyrion is as much about his last name as it is about how he looks. I don't see why Sansa is considered shallow because she is repulsed by him.

I don't think it's eugenics at all, nor is there a suggestion of it in the OP.

Thank you. I was going to say this. Eugenics is born out of socio-cultural attitudes and political actions, based on prejudice that is often not based on sound science. The Eugenics movement in America lead to some outrageous and disturbing practices, including forced sterilization of poor, disabled, non-white and "promiscuous" people. Tywin wanted a reason to put baby Tyrion to the sword (for "killing" Joanna) but couldn't find one. Later Tywin tries to find a noble wife for Tyrion, despite all his physical deformities, not keep Tyrion from reproducing.

What the OP is saying is that who we are attracted to as mates is based on biology. I think that's true in part although standards of beauty may be based on cultural factors. The OP is not suggesting that Tyrion should be forcibly sterilized, just that there are reasons why women would not find him an attractive prospect to be the father of their children. That's not Tyrion "hate" just pointing out the double-standard of expectations when it comes to desiring beauty in a mate despite the biological drives that are at the core of attraction.

I certainly don't hate Tyrion for being attracted to beautiful women, because I think it's perfectly normal. I do fault his self-pity and bitterness when those beautiful women don't reciprocate.

[LordBloodraven]

I see where you're getting at but...

I wouldnt wish any woman to be in a relashionship with congenial people such as John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer etc., even if they said they loved that woman and always treated them nice.

Brienne deservers better than Jaime and I think Jaime will realize this in the end.

I hope Jaime never escapes his encounter with the hangwoman. Payback time, cocksucker.

Let me ask you this - would you consider marrying a multiple murderer or recommend such a person to a friend as a potentially good match? Someone who let people who worked for him walk away completely unpunished when they committed a murder and who organised the burning alive of thousands so he could keep a sadistic psychopath on the throne. Does such person seem like a good husband to you?

If that guy is repenting and on that way, yes, he could be a good husband material. Tyrion didn't organize the burning of thousands, he defended the city with the resources available to him. We are in Westeros where blood is thicker than water, you can't just walk out of your family and expect to be a self-made man. Martial law exists for a reason I guess. At times, there are reasons far more superior than the liberty to walk the streets at midnight. (Even Hitler was good husband material for Eva Braun and he doted on their German shepherd).

[Mulled Wino]

I personally dont see what was wrong with what Tyrion or Sansa did. The main problem I see is that people are somehow expecting Sansa to come around to Tyrion. Thats never gonna happen.

Like someone said, he's lucky not to have a knife through his belly or neck while he sleeps.

Tyrion doesnt force himself on Sansa, and Sansa is well beyond her rights to be as cold as she wants to Tyrion. She should never be expected to "come around" because she had bo other option. That's about as ridiculous as saying Tyrion just wanted to be loved in his marriage with Sansa.

[998]

I hope Jaime never escapes his encounter with the hangwoman. Payback time, cocksucker.

If that guy is repenting and on that way, yes, he could be a good husband material.

How come a rapist or serial killer can repent but not Jaime?

[Kittykatknits]

I personally dont see what was wrong with what Tyrion or Sansa did. The main problem I see is that people are somehow expecting Sansa to come around to Tyrion. Thats never gonna happen.

Like someone said, he's lucky not to have a knife through his belly or neck while he sleeps.

Tyrion doesnt force himself on Sansa, and Sansa is well beyond her rights to be as cold as she wants to Tyrion. She should never be expected to "come around" because she had bo other option. That's about as ridiculous as saying Tyrion just wanted to be loved in his marriage with Sansa.

The only thing this discussion ever seems to do is make people even more entrenched in their positions. I agree with you on the main problem. The idea that Sansa will come around to him is completely unrealistic. It's not a matter of her becoming older, more mature, or him somehow getting to a healthier place. They are horrible for each other and will never, ever make each other happy. For someone to make the claim that Sansa will some how change how she feels about him just comes off sounding like wish fulfillment. There is nothing in her thoughts to indicate this and it runs contrary to her story arc.

Actually, now that I think about this, there are two things that Tyrion could do that would make Sansa come around to him: apologize and give her an annulment. I have no doubt she would take both.

[Lyanna Stark]

It's normal because most of the time we don't want someone we care about to be with someone we feel deserve to spend their life in prison. Because we wish for the best for people we love, and it's hard to view a rapist or a murderer as the best.It's as simple as that.To accept != to like, don't you agree ?

Nope , nothing to do with hero point because that implies that we want the hero in question to get what they deserve while we don't have to give a damn about this hero's happiness here.

About real life ,we may disagree on this but I'd rather have a friend or relative marry a normal person she likes rather than a rapist she's crazy about.Doesn't mean I'll necessarily meddle , but I will have an opinion.

You are talking about extremes here like serial killers and rapists, or people who are in prison, which seems to insinuate that it's going to be a destructive relationship with pure abuse in it. Which was not really the scope for the original point, since it was about Jaime not being good enough for Brienne, indicating he is simply not heroic enough.

Even so, if one of my friends somehow decided to go off and marry a convicted felon, should I try and stop him/her? Obviously this person has his/her reasons for doing this. I may ask about it, but is it my place to judge?