Beauty Means Health, or Why it's Okay to say "No" to Tyrion

[Woman of War]

Let me ask you this - would you consider marrying a multiple murderer or recommend such a person to a friend as a potentially good match? Someone who let people who worked for him walk away completely unpunished when they committed a murder and who organised the burning alive of thousands so he could keep a sadistic psychopath on the throne. Does such person seem like a good husband to you?

This is not at all the point here. The point Natalie may have made is: This is Martin's story and not ours to write.

Martin is no marriage counselor or matchmaker who carefully chooses the most fitting pairing. He writes a compelling story and he won't make a poll among his readers about if he gets the moral absolution to write it the way he wants. So it is completely irrelevant if you (or me) consider Tyrion a potentially good husband. It is understandable that you believe your favorite character deserves only the best in your eyes but maybe that is absolutely not the author's idea of Sansa's fate. If Martin wants Sansa and Tyrion to have more of a relationship than so far, the creator of Martinworld alone knows.

@Scipio Africanus (i love your name, I was totally into Latin when I was young :) )

No, you are right, Tyrion was not a "good guy" at the beginning of ADWD. Apart from having murdered Tywin and Shae and being guilty of war crimes he behaved in a spiteful, hateful and disgusting manner. He insulted the servant at Illyrio's in the worst way he could imagine, sexist because she was a woman. He would have found an ugly insult for a young man as well, guess what, or for an old servant. And with the prostitute in Selhoris he got for the first time the experience of being an ordinary john who could not buy the despise out of her face. He hated her for it, it was a deplorable hatefuck, and he hated and despised himself afterwards.

There is this thread about mental health where I tried to analyse Tyrion's mind after ASOS.

And, yes, it is is possible that Martin will let Tyrion sink even lower morally and the important criteria for morality here are not first of all his deplorable sexual encounters but the criterion that counts is whether he will again commit crimes of war or develop, unlike his father, a moral compass how to achieve political goals. Ansd if he wiil be able to see the greater good for the fate of his world or only pursue his personal desire as Lannister heir. I believe that the author will let Tyrion find his personal way of doing the right thing, but that is only my idea.

[Hear Us Roar]

Not only is Tyrion a dwarf , which is undesirable in the asoaif universe and ours as well, he is hideous and scared. It is understanable why no one would like him, i don't blame any of the women.

[Sailing the sunset sea]

Tyrion didn't kill Shae [...] neither did he rape that prostitute.

Sorry, but that was rape. Read that scene. There is no other interpretation possible.

The woman was a slave and couln't decline him, like most Westerosi prostitutes could have. She was disgusted by him and reluctant and he fucks her anyway without any regard for her well-being (he even thinks something like "I don't care"). He notices that she has been severely beaten in the past. It doesn't stop him from raping her again.

You might not consider it "text book rape" because she didn't struggle or try to stop it, or scream "no!", but it's clear that she would have rejected him if she could. She didn't do it voluntarily. Her scars are a hint that she tried to struggle at other times but was violently punished for it. She seems to have given up, but "no resistance" doesn't mean she wants it. She is a slave and she cannot reject anyone. Tyrion knows this and doesn't care.

I don't get what people don't get about this.

If people are forced into prostitution and the clients knows about it and carries on regardless, it. is. deliberate. rape.

Anway, I think this is supposed to be Tyrion's lowest point in the entire series. When we were introduced to him, he was witty, in control of the situation and generally a compassionate and decent human being. At the beginning of ADWD we see him completely destroyed - no self esteem, no self worth, cyncial, depressed, half suicidal, uncaring and self-hating...he is not like himself at all. That is understandable (Tyrion is one of my three favorite characters), but it doesn't make his crimes any less condemnable.

[Mulled Wino]

The only thing this discussion ever seems to do is make people even more entrenched in their positions. I agree with you on the main problem. The idea that Sansa will come around to him is completely unrealistic. It's not a matter of her becoming older, more mature, or him somehow getting to a healthier place. They are horrible for each other and will never, ever make each other happy. For someone to make the claim that Sansa will some how change how she feels about him just comes off sounding like wish fulfillment. There is nothing in her thoughts to indicate this and it runs contrary to her story arc.

Actually, now that I think about this, there are two things that Tyrion could do that would make Sansa come around to him: apologize and give her an annulment. I have no doubt she would take both.

sounds like me vs many in regarding Cat/Tyrion! :cheers:

I mean, I'm dumbfounded. Forced to marry someone in the family that beheaded your father, you think possibly killed your sister, and killed all the people around you that you grew up with. But you should come around based on you not having any other options. Personally, I'd rather take one or two out with me and hit the grave.

If Tyrion wanted a fairy tale ending with Sansa, he can start plotting to take his family down with her. That's all I see that would actually turn her. If he apologized and gave her an annulment, she'd accept and go on her way.

[Woman of War]

Sorry, but that was rape. Read that scene. There is no other interpretation possible.

The woman was a slave and couln't decline him, like most Westerosi prostitutes could have. She was disgusted by him and reluctant and he fucks her anyway without any regard for her well-being (he even thinks something like "I don't care"). He notices that she has been severely beaten in the past. It doesn't stop him from raping her again.

You might not consider it "text book rape" because she didn't struggle or try to stop it, or scream "no!", but it's clear that she would have rejected him if she could. She didn't do it voluntarily. Her scars are a hint that she tried to struggle at other times but was violently punished for it. She seems to have given up, but "no resistance" doesn't mean she wants it. She is a slave and she cannot reject anyone. Tyrion knows this and doesn't care.

I don't get what people don't get about this.

If people are forced into prostitution and the clients knows about it and carries on regardless, it. is. deliberate. rape.

Why is it so important to stamp the label "rape" on Tyrion's behaviour here? I do not get this. We all agree that his behaviour was ugly and wrong, nobody denies this. Labelling it rape or not is an unnecessary shadowfight about words. Being able to name someone "rapist" is very much important when it comes to persecution by law in our world. Concerning Tyrion in Westeros we can all agree that he is capable of really shitty behvaiour towards women at times. I mean strangling Shae was far more signifcant for the victim than any rape could have been. The victim is DEAD.

Anway, I think this is supposed to be Tyrion's lowest point in the entire series. When we were introduced to him, he was witty, in control of the situation and generally a compassionate and decent human being. At the beginning of ADWD we see him completely destroyed - no self esteem, no self worth, cyncial, depressed, half suicidal, uncaring and self-hating...he is not like himself at all. That is understandable (Tyrion is one of my three favorite characters), but it doesn't make his crimes any less condemnable.

:agree:

Thread about mental illness with a description of Tyrion's state of mind:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70133-mental-illness-in-asoiaf/page__st__20__p__3373119#entry3373119

[1234567]

Why is it so important to stamp the label "rape" on Tyrion's behaviour here? I do not get this. We all agree that his behaviour was ugly and wrong, nobody denies this. Labelling it rape or not is an unnecessary shadowfight about words.

Because there are those who are saying that it wasn't rape. This is not the normal type of prostitute / John relationship where there is some consent. This is a slave who is being forced to do this, who clearly does not wish to, who Tyrion rapes. He doesn't just have sex, but knowingly forces himself on someone who doesn't want him and is powerless to say no.

There are degrees of crimes: you can kill someone, but depending on the circumstances it could be murder or man slaughter or just an accident. Similarly there is a difference between having sex with someone who is willing, someone who appears willing but maybe is being forced and someone who is very blatantly being forced and doesn't want to.

[David Selig]

This is not at all the point here. The point Natalie may have made is: This is Martin's story and not ours to write.

Martin is no marriage counselor or matchmaker who carefully chooses the most fitting pairing. He writes a compelling story and he won't make a poll among his readers about if he gets the moral absolution to write it the way he wants. So it is completely irrelevant if you (or me) consider Tyrion a potentially good husband. It is understandable that you believe your favorite character deserves only the best in your eyes but maybe that is absolutely not the author's idea of Sansa's fate. If Martin wants Sansa and Tyrion to have more of a relationship than so far, the creator of Martinworld alone knows.

Sure, Martin can write whatever he wants, I never claimed otherwise.

The point I don't see those "lot of good qualities that could make him a good match" in Tyrion which Natalie_S claimed are there. He has some good qualities, sure, but they are overshadowed by the negatives. How can someone with his track record with women be considered good husband material? He doesn't even have money and power anymore.

[Kittykatknits]

Because there are those who are saying that it wasn't rape. This is not the normal type of prostitute / John relationship where there is some consent. This is a slave who is being forced to do this, who clearly does not wish to, who Tyrion rapes. He doesn't just have sex, but knowingly forces himself on someone who doesn't want him and is powerless to say no.

There are degrees of crimes: you can kill someone, but depending on the circumstances it could be murder or man slaughter or just an accident. Similarly there is a difference between having sex with someone who is willing, someone who appears willing but maybe is being forced and someone who is very blatantly being forced and doesn't want to.

I agree. If a person does not or can not give consent, it's rape. Rather than asking why so many want to call it rape, I wonder why so many are reluctant to use the word.

[Sailing the sunset sea]

Why is it so important to stamp the label "rape" on Tyrion's behaviour here? I do not get this. We all agree that his behaviour was ugly and wrong, nobody denies this. Labelling it rape or not is an unnecessary shadowfight about words. Being able to name someone "rapist" is very much important when it comes to persecution by law in our world. Concerning Tyrion in Westeros we can all agree that he is capable of really shitty behvaiour towards women at times. I mean strangling Shae was far more signifcant for the victim than any rape could have been. The victim is DEAD.

It's not a shadowfight about words. It's a fact. Tyrion raped someone. I don't want to "stamp a label on his behaviour", I'm just calling it what it is.

We agree that Tyrion has psychological problems, is depressive and in the end not a bad person, etc. etc. But it's still rape.

[Woman of War]

By David Selig:

How can someone with his track record with women be considered good husband material? He doesn't even have money and power anymore

Excuse me, but this is kind of funny because 99,5 % of the male Westerosi population have neither power or money and may still manage to get married. Sansa is not more entitled to a life in wealth and glory and a rich and influential husband than any peasant girl, only because Sansa has been born rich.

Tyrion does not want to be wanted for money or power, he wants to be wanted for himself, unrealistic or not. Should Sansa like him better for his Lannister Gold and his Lannister name? Should Sansa go for the gold by now?

[Woman of War]

It's not a shadowfight about words. It's a fact. Tyrion raped someone. I don't want to "stamp a label on his behaviour", I'm just calling it what it is.

We agree that Tyrion has psychological problems, is depressive and in the end not a bad person, etc. etc. But it's still rape.

I would not say that you are wrong, maybe you aren't. But what counts for me is the actual ugly and hateful quality of his behaviour here, not the word itself, so I do not really care.

@ kittykatknits:

Why am I reluctant? Because I am always reluctant to use labels like "evil" or "rape" or "irredeemable" because labels tend to free us from thoroughly considering a story situation. They seduce us into opening a drawer, put the labelled item in and forget about it instead of really examining it in all its facets.

A RL jury has to find a label in the end, a verdict, because a democratic law system has to pronounce defined sanctions for defined crimes, it has to be reliable in its verdicts. But we as readers want to value a story in all its facets and being overly secure of how to judge something may lead to simplification. Thats why I prefer not to label things more than absolutely necessary. Here a detailed evaluation of Tyrion's behaviour is more helpful for the analysis of Tyrion's literary character than simply using the label "rapist". This is as insufficient as applying the label "lannister", "war criminal" or "intellectual" as only key word for this character.

[JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN]

This thread got ugly fast.

There is so much discussion on beauty, sex, rape, marriage, murder, and handicap that I can't really keep it straight.

To address the OP the best that I can:

Beauty may have a connection to perceived health but I would argue that it is more reliant on healthcare than biology. If you consider that most of the "attractive" characters described are "high-born" then it is safe to assume that throughout their lives they had access to better food and medicine (through the maesters) than the peasant class. They would usually not be introduced to bloodborn pathogens if they remained chaste and only engaged with a similarly virtuous partner (though insuring this would be hard considering the prolific brothel scene). Any sort of disease that could cause physical disfigurement would likely be checked by a maester except for the few cases such as greyscale that affect some newborns (really curious about this childhood form which doesn't seem as fatal as adult onset, sort of like shingles and chickenpox). There are still going to be "ugly" people who are healthy but it is most likely that the nobles would inherently be healthier and then also be considered more attractive in turn, not because they actually are more attractive but because they wouldn't outwardly show signs of malnutrition and disease.

Sorry if I wasn't thorough in reading the 13+ pages and this argument has already been put forth.

[LordBloodraven]

How come a rapist or serial killer can repent but not Jaime?

Who's the serial killer, Tyrion? Statutory rapist, yes but certainly not a serial killer. And I didn't say that Jaime cannot repent or redeem himself, I hope that he won't survive his encounter with Cat, given that he threw a 7 year old boy from a tower and crushed all his hopes of being a knight of the Kingsguard

[SelaBela]

snip

The problem is, I don't think it's anomaly. To me, it's the rule.

snip

What really makes me uncomfortable is the idea that it's a good and healthy thing not to find a person with dwarfism attractive and the suggestion that whoever does must have some kind of evolution anomaly.

Weren't these "anomalies" skanks in Casinos hanging off some rich dudes arm? And that rich dude happened to be a dwarf? If so it IS the rule.. The only willing women Tyrion ever had were attracted to his money, not him. (Aside from MAYBE Tysha, but she knew who he was at the same time, and I'm sure she wasn't sad that he was a uber wealthy Lannister.)

I'm just sayin'...

[LordBloodraven]

I agree. If a person does not or can not give consent, it's rape. Rather than asking why so many want to call it rape, I wonder why so many are reluctant to use the word.

In a society where 3/4 of the population is a slave and where all the prostitutes seems to be slaves, it's hard or utopic to have consent from a prostitute. The relationship is still asymmetrical and but you could consider that factor when people felt uneasy to consider it as rape. Vogarro's whore again

[WindOfWinter]

While I 100% agree with the OP in the fact that Sansa obviously has no obligation to love Tyrion, I'm just thinking of what responses a thread entitled 'Beauty Means Health, or Why It's Okay For Jamie to be Rude to and Reject Brienne' would garner. She is an ugly wench after all.

[Fantôme]

You are talking about extremes here like serial killers and rapists, or people who are in prison, which seems to insinuate that it's going to be a destructive relationship with pure abuse in it. Which was not really the scope for the original point, since it was about Jaime not being good enough for Brienne, indicating he is simply not heroic enough.

Er you know Jaime is an( attempted) child murderer so yes ,it's totally relevant. And the original point was you answering to a poster who would rather have Sansa marry someone more moral than Tyrion ,who is a murderer too, so, again , totally relevant.Yes I know you're not advocating the Sansa/Tyrion marriage.

Jaime not being good enough for Brienne, indicating he is simply not heroic enough.

No, good and heroic aren't equivalent.

Even so, if one of my friends somehow decided to go off and marry a convicted felon, should I try and stop him/her? Obviously this person has his/her reasons for doing this. I may ask about it, but is it my place to judge?

Once again , how is anybody but Martin going to stop a fictional character from doing anything anyway.That's not the point. Maybe you wouldn't have an opinion about it but I think most people would wish their friend wouldn't marry the criminal. Which is why I'm saying it's normal to want someone better for Sansa and Brienne and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with hero points.

[Lyanna Stark]

Er you know Jaime is an " attempted child murderer "(why serial??) so yes ,it's totally relevant. And the original point was you answering to a poster wanting Sansa to marry someone more moral than Tyrion (who is a murderer too) so again , totally relevant.(yes I know you're not advocating the Sansa/Tyrion marriage).

And my comment to that was that Tyrion's morality was completely irrelevant. Which I still think it is. If their partner is ok with it, then it's all good.

No, good and heroic aren't equivalent.

In this context, they are, since you assume that a character needs to have a certain average "goodness" level to be acceptable.

Once again , how is anybody going to stop a fictional character from doing anything anyway.That's not the point. Maybe you wouldn't have an opinion about it but I think most people would wish their friend wouldn't marry the criminal. Which is why I'm saying it's normal.

No, I don't think it's "normal", I think it's meddling and overbearing. it's trying to undermine their choices as not valid. I don't "wish" for my friends to marry anyone, or have a relationship with anyone. I assume that they are adult and grown up enough to make their own decisions, which I will support them in. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it is not my place to judge whether their choice is good or bad. I also tend to think that criminals aren't beyond starting a new, better life. If someone wants to hook up with a criminal, well, it's their prerogative, isn't it?

Some of my friends have hooked up with people I really was doubtful about, should that mean I should go around wishing for them to meet someone better? That's really conceited. I don't presume to know better than they what they want and desire.

[Fantôme]

And my comment to that was that Tyrion's morality was completely irrelevant. Which I still think it is. If their partner is ok with it, then it's all good.

Yes I got that .And I think "feelings are all that matter" is an extremely simplistic and sort of childish view, so , I'll agree to disagree.

In this context, they are, since you assume that a character needs to have a certain average "goodness" level to be acceptable.

No , I assume a character is more suitable if he's not a murderer or a rapist. It's not even about having goodness (which again , is different than heroism), just about not being a horrible criminal.

No, I don't think it's "normal", I think it's meddling and overbearing. it's trying to undermine their choices as not valid. I don't "wish" for my friends to marry anyone, or have a relationship with anyone. I assume that they are adult and grown up enough to make their own decisions, which I will support them in. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it is not my place to judge whether their choice is good or bad. I also tend to think that criminals aren't beyond starting a new, better life. If someone wants to hook up with a criminal, well, it's their prerogative, isn't it?

Some of my friends have hooked up with people I really was doubtful about, should that mean I should go around wishing for them to meet someone better? That's really conceited. I don't presume to know better than they what they want and desire.

First how is it meddling if all you do is thinking? "Never judge anything" is it ?

That's really conceited. I don't presume to know better than they what they want and desire.

You don't have to presume to know what they want or need to think you would rather not have them be with someone . You can accept that they want a horrible person and not like it , for very obvious reasons . Which leads to wishing they would be with someone better. Sorry but I can't imagine not wishing a friend hadn't married a rapist , or that most people wouldn't or are wrong to do so.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Do not call each other names. Thank you. [/mod]