From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[Mladen]

Well, if you're thinking of using sex as a tool within a marriage then yeah, I could see this as Littlefinger-worthy. But then again I think with someone like Harry, who has a lot of experience with women, weaponizing sex would be perhaps of less use than with other men. With a man like that I think the best way to manipulate would be through innocence/denial of sex, kind of in the way Anne Boleyn played Henry VIII.

denial is even more powerful (case of Anne Boleyn)...First, she`ll use innocence and then...Anne Boleyn had to have sex with Henry eventually...

[brashcandy]

Dany paid a lot when she dealt with magic, and she damaged herself more than others(don`t count Khal Drogo here). I agree that sex is always damaging you(this is what I get talking with women about sex :wideeyed: ). For Sansa, it is going to be both frightening and unpleasent...

If she's forced into it, then yes. I don't think if she's with someone she loves or wants that it would be unpleasant.

@A... the entire encounter took place on the bed.

[Mladen]

If she's forced into it, then yes. I don't think if she's with someone she loves or wants that it would be unpleasant.

I am male so, please ladies say if I am wrong, but isn`t the first time supposed to be both unpleasent and frightening?

[Lady Lea]

I am male so, please ladies say if I am wrong, but isn`t the first time supposed to be both unpleasent and frightening?

It isn't, not if you're with someone who makes you feel comfortable. :) I was a bit nervous but not frightened. And it wasn't unpleasant at all! A bit weird at first is all.

I was really surprised because I thought it would be terrible. Some people feel more pain than others.

[A...]

@A... the entire encounter took place on the bed.

Did a quick re-read, and you're right, he was on the bed the entire time, but I got confused because of

He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down on the bed.

happening after.

I am male so, please ladies say if I am wrong, but isn`t the first time supposed to be both unpleasent and frightening?

Isn't that supposed to be a stereotype? :P

[Lady Lea]

Isn't that supposed to be a stereotype? :P

a myth!

[A...]

Unless you're Jeyne Poole :crying:

[Mladen]

My first time wasn`t unpleasent, my girlfriend said it was ok, but my female friends had complaints...I believe it all depends on the person. By the way, I REALLY hate to talk about sex...

Unless you're Jeyne Poole

:crying:

It`s so sad...

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Poor Jeyne! :crying: I think it had to be worse for her than anyone.

A girl's "first time" can be awful or awesome depending on circumstances. If one has a tough hymen penetration is more painful, if one's partner is inconsiderate that is a buzz-kill, and no matter what, doing something for the first time is awkward (like riding a bicycle). But being a woman and having talked to lots of other women, one's first time can be pretty damn awesome under the right circumstances (a good, considerate partner that you love or at least like, your body cooperates, and you don't have such high ideals of what it will be like - the earth will NOT move - that you wind up disappointed).

Let's just say that I think Sansa has far more of a chance of having an awesome first sexual experience now that she's gotten more worldly-wise and divested of her illusions. She's no longer thinking in terms of "my ideal man is gorgeous and high-born." If she had her first time with Joffrey :ack: it might have put her off sex for life. She is more grown up and is far more open-minded of who she considers attractive (Sandor fits into her template of what is sexually attractive now where he wouldn't in the GoT era Sansa). Her first time will be better for it. I also think it would be better for her to not have to marry someone like Harry the Heir and be so pressured on the wedding night to perform and the times after to bear heirs. I want her to have her little Ned and Bran and Rickon etc. but not under pressure.

[brashcandy]

Sansa has had so many near misses when it comes to sex/rape that I can't see GRRM not choosing to make her first time (if indeed he does write it into the story) a pleasant experience.

[Kittykatknits]

I am male so, please ladies say if I am wrong, but isn`t the first time supposed to be both unpleasent and frightening?

Did a quick re-read, and you're right, he was on the bed the entire time, but I got confused because of

happening after.

Isn't that supposed to be a stereotype? :P

Yep. Google "hymen myths" to learn more. Secret to success: foreplay. The lord's kiss can help quite a bit too.

ETA: This assumes a certain level of education/knowledge with both partners too.

[Monica21]

Oh it was definite revulsion.

Okay. I thought you were tying the shudder with eroticism and I was all... :ack:

That’s just GRRM being a troll ;) Plus, just because we recognize something as erotic, doesn’t mean the character needs to. Sansa’s feelings about Sandor were still developing at this time, and obviously still confusing. But by AFFC she appears to be more “aware” of the nature of them and feels resentment over his desertion. We’ve now moved from an unconscious substitution in her dream, to a fully conscious, almost instinctual replacement. That she’s “unsatisfied” with the ending is also not in doubt. GRRM tries to throw us off track with the adjective “cruel” to describe the kiss, but it’s not hard to see that her thoughts are typical of an erotic desire, and we have evidence from Daenerys’ chapter in ADWD that shows her using the very same word in anticipating what it would be like to kiss Daario.

I disagree that the character doesn't need to identify something as erotic for it to be erotic. Sansa is simply not sexually mature enough to think it is, and if she is, she's not telling us. She's not telling us her physical state when she thinks and dreams about Sandor, and to me, that's the very definition of an erotic desire. I think the only thing I can do as a reader is recognize the potential for it, but give Sansa the benefit of figuring it out for herself. And, for what it's worth, Sandor may not be at the end of all this. It may be a waystation to a different relationship.

I agree that she's unsatisfied, but I haven't made up my mind if she's unsatisfied because Sandor left or because she didn't take the opportunity to go with him or because he messed it all up by holding a knife to her throat. Maybe a combination of all three, except she seems to have replaced the knife with the kiss, so I don't know. Basically I think Sansa is just a jumble of teenage hormones and doesn't know how to describe what happened that night with Sandor or what she feels about him, and we probably won't know until they meet again.

I think it’s the first reason you gave: the problem with being a pawn. Again, I don’t think her memory of Sandor in connection with the marriage bed means that she still views sex as necessary within the bounds of marriage. She’s asked whether she knows what happens in the marriage bed and she uses the kiss with Sandor as confirmation of that. If we were to follow this reasoning, we could just as easily say that due to the fact that her kiss with Sandor occurred in her own bed, when she was an unmarried woman, we’ll see that same dynamic in play when they meet up.

Well, if her problem with marriage is her being a pawn then she hasn't become disillusioned. She's disillusioned by being used, yes, but not by marriage itself.

As for Sandor, I'm not sure she's thought far enough ahead to start thinking of what is and is not appropriate or acceptable outside marriage. Let's not forget that this 13-year-old girl has a lot on her plate. She's pretending to be someone she isn't, Littlefinger is creeping on her, her "father" is poisoning her cousin, she's still married but she's also betrothed, and I still can't be convinced that she doesn't want to go back to Winterfell. All that to say that who she ends up having sex with and when is fairly low on her priority list. The only thing that does seem to be a priority is that she avoids remarrying someone she doesn't want to marry.

[brashcandy]

Okay. I thought you were tying the shudder with eroticism and I was all... :ack:

Gods no :)

I disagree that the character doesn't need to identify something as erotic for it to be erotic. Sansa is simply not sexually mature enough to think it is, and if she is, she's not telling us. She's not telling us her physical state when she thinks and dreams about Sandor, and to me, that's the very definition of an erotic desire. I think the only thing I can do as a reader is recognize the potential for it, but give Sansa the benefit of figuring it out for herself. And, for what it's worth, Sandor may not be at the end of all this. It may be a waystation to a different relationship.

Well if we're waiting for these characters to tell us everything they're thinking and feeling, some of which they can't even recognize or admit for themselves, then we might as well pour our analytical skills down the drain. Kittykatknits has mentioned already how the limited 3rd person POV can be misleading and restrictive concerning what we learn about these characters. You're right when you highlight that Sansa is still a young girl grappling with these feelings, but we as readers can perform independent analysis of these signs and what they signify/symbolise. Just because Martin chooses to have Sansa give an ambiguous reaction to the dream doesn't mean that we cannot recognize an erotic dream for what it is. I have always noted that Sansa's feelings for Sandor are still confusing, and that she's not fully aware of them yet, or what they could be, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... I am fully behind giving Sansa the benefit of figuring it out, but as readers we operate on a metatextual basis, looking at foreshadowing, conversations, dreams, etc, and can therefore reach a conclusion of sorts.

I agree that Sandor may not be end game for Sansa as well, but it doesn't negate the evidence that there's something between them.

I agree that she's unsatisfied, but I haven't made up my mind if she's unsatisfied because Sandor left or because she didn't take the opportunity to go with him or because he messed it all up by holding a knife to her throat. Maybe a combination of all three, except she seems to have replaced the knife with the kiss, so I don't know. Basically I think Sansa is just a jumble of teenage hormones and doesn't know how to describe what happened that night with Sandor or what she feels about him, and we probably won't know until they meet again.

Well I do think she's unhappy that he left, but it's connected to this pseudo-fantasy of him kissing her. She's not simply mad that he up and left KL, but that he took a song and a kiss, and left her with nothing but a bloody cloak. It reads to me like she's saying he got more out of the night than she did, but that's just my opinion.

Well, if her problem with marriage is her being a pawn then she hasn't become disillusioned. She's disillusioned by being used, yes, but not by marriage itself.

But marriage is what is facilitating her being used and abused. That's why she has a problem with it. So, yes, she is disillusioned by marriage because outside of it she has agency and a chance to make her own decisions, but marriage stifles all that.

As for Sandor, I'm not sure she's thought far enough ahead to start thinking of what is and is not appropriate or acceptable outside marriage. Let's not forget that this 13-year-old girl has a lot on her plate. She's pretending to be someone she isn't, Littlefinger is creeping on her, her "father" is poisoning her cousin, she's still married but she's also betrothed, and I still can't be convinced that she doesn't want to go back to Winterfell. All that to say that who she ends up having sex with and when is fairly low on her priority list. The only thing that does seem to be a priority is that she avoids remarrying someone she doesn't want to marry.

I think we've always stressed that Sansa is gradually maturing and developing and negotiating with these ideas as she goes along. I didn't mean to suggest that she's suddenly enlightened or conscious about her sexuality and whether or not she wants to have sex in or out of marriage. But we do know she's been exposed to alternative stories, and that given her similar history of oppression and victimization, these other options should prove to be naturally attractive.

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay. I thought you were tying the shudder with eroticism and I was all... :ack:

Ouch no, Sansa really loathed being married to Tyrion, that much is clear. However, the text links up a couple of things: the song comment from the Serpetine steps - the marriage bed where naked and aroused Tyrion is later substituted - Sansa thinking that the bedding would not be so bad had it been with a man she loved and friends who loved them both - Lysa screaming in pleasure - Marillions "helpful" comments - Lothor as Sandor stand-in - and lasty the dream where the substitution happens. In the dream you have a mashup of these themes. The song reference, the marriage bed and then the substitution.

I disagree that the character doesn't need to identify something as erotic for it to be erotic. Sansa is simply not sexually mature enough to think it is, and if she is, she's not telling us. She's not telling us her physical state when she thinks and dreams about Sandor, and to me, that's the very definition of an erotic desire. I think the only thing I can do as a reader is recognize the potential for it, but give Sansa the benefit of figuring it out for herself. And, for what it's worth, Sandor may not be at the end of all this. It may be a waystation to a different relationship.

If things were that clearly defined in ASOIAF, we would not have spent up to 12 years discussing them. ;) There are still battles raging about Dany's prophecies in the HoTU and I think I read my first discussion about that in 1999. GRRM loves to leave things unsaid, or unthought and ambiguous.

You are right though that Sansa is not yet mature to think of it as such, but another thing to keep in mind is that as of end AFFC, she is at least a year older than Dany was when she married Drogo. The ages are messed up to be sure and the lack of the 5 year gap has messed them up further, I think. It's probably the reason why a lot of the characters have been aged up in the show. Had Sansa been 2-3 years older, it would have been an improvement, I think. But the same goes for Dany, Bran, Jon and Arya. Had they been aged up 2-3 years you wouldn't have to mentally go "ASOIAF ages are not like RL ages".

Well, if her problem with marriage is her being a pawn then she hasn't become disillusioned. She's disillusioned by being used, yes, but not by marriage itself.

True, but there is also the point she has realised that in many, many cases, marriage is disempowering for women. They marry some Lord or other who may or may not treat them nicely, she has to move in with him and live at his place, with little to no contact with her family and without any real agency to make any decisions over her own life. Asha knows this well, Dany seems to be realising it and Sansa is learning it. This is what they need to navigate, somehow. Asha already seems to know what she wants (Qarl the Maid), I don't think Dany has yet encountered her "mount to love" and Sansa seems to be figuring it out. The question is, if she cannot reconcile marriage with love (practically, politically), which will she choose over the other?

As for Sandor, I'm not sure she's thought far enough ahead to start thinking of what is and is not appropriate or acceptable outside marriage. Let's not forget that this 13-year-old girl has a lot on her plate. She's pretending to be someone she isn't, Littlefinger is creeping on her, her "father" is poisoning her cousin, she's still married but she's also betrothed, and I still can't be convinced that she doesn't want to go back to Winterfell. All that to say that who she ends up having sex with and when is fairly low on her priority list. The only thing that does seem to be a priority is that she avoids remarrying someone she doesn't want to marry.

I do think she wants to go back to Winterfell very much, but currently it is a burnt out ruin under siege and covered in foot after foot of snow. Should she reach it on her own, whomever holds it will use her as a pawn. The Harry the Heir marriage cannot happen since she is married to Tyrion and even if it did, why should Harry drop everything and run off to "liberate" Winterfell through snow and armies, while leaving the Vale undefending in the middle of an ongoing war (f!Aegon is planning on taking Storms End after which he is likely to march on Kings Landing unless the Tyrells somehow stop him).

Even if she has not considered in depth what is and isn't appropriate or acceptable outside of marriage, we have seen her take a rather accepting stance towards Cat having slept with LF. The one thing she seems to hold against LF here is that if he really loved her mother, he would not marry Lysa. The problems and possibilities that surround marriage and love in Westeros have been central to Sansa's story arc so far, as well, more so than any other character arc so I think it is relevant to look specifically for clues regarding this in the text. It's a bit like reading Dany with the issues surrounding women ruling in their own right in mind, or Dany/Jon/Cersei in AFFC/ADWD with leadership problems and what it does to you in mind. There are other things to look for, too, but these are the main themes.

A girl's "first time" can be awful or awesome depending on circumstances. If one has a tough hymen penetration is more painful, if one's partner is inconsiderate that is a buzz-kill, and no matter what, doing something for the first time is awkward (like riding a bicycle). But being a woman and having talked to lots of other women, one's first time can be pretty damn awesome under the right circumstances (a good, considerate partner that you love or at least like, your body cooperates, and you don't have such high ideals of what it will be like - the earth will NOT move - that you wind up disappointed).

I was convinced for years that the bleeding thing must be a myth that people made up as some sort of weird propaganda saying "you should stay away from this", but I supposed having realistic expectations helped since I was more "what are people complaining about this for??? It's fab".

Let's just say that I think Sansa has far more of a chance of having an awesome first sexual experience now that she's gotten more worldly-wise and divested of her illusions. She's no longer thinking in terms of "my ideal man is gorgeous and high-born." If she had her first time with Joffrey :ack: it might have put her off sex for life. She is more grown up and is far more open-minded of who she considers attractive (Sandor fits into her template of what is sexually attractive now where he wouldn't in the GoT era Sansa). Her first time will be better for it. I also think it would be better for her to not have to marry someone like Harry the Heir and be so pressured on the wedding night to perform and the times after to bear heirs. I want her to have her little Ned and Bran and Rickon etc. but not under pressure.

True, knowing yourself and what you want really helps. I think that's why it's so terrible and sad to read about Sansa's marriage with Tyrion since she is just bewildered, scared and depressed about the whole thing.

I tend to think Harry the Heir is Robert 2.0, which is not a good thing. Interacting with Mya will definitely clue Sansa in on this if nothing else will. I am getting teh bad vibes from HtH.

On Crushes vs "real love":

Regarding the hormones and crushes and how crushes are described in ASOIAF, there are a couple of textual clues that seem to hint at whether something is a crush or infatuation or something more real and substantial.

Sansa has this first for Joffrey, but above all for Loras where she fawns over him and his beauty and she can't walk or talk straight when he's touching her arm.

Dany has similar feelings for Daario in that she frets, dresses in her prettiest clothes, she fawns over him and feels stupid and like she can't think straight with him around. Cersei remembers similar fawning feelings for Rhaegar, how she saw him and he was so beautiful and sad, and she wanted to take away the hurt.

The common factors here seem to be the fawning, the rather unrealistic expectations and the "can't think/walk straight". All these three are crushes based on surface, attraction based on looks and not on knowing the person underneath. Sansa is again a great example in how she changes her view on Joffrey's looks once she gets to know him: when she finds him lovely he is also pretty "her golden prince", but once he proves what an arse he is, he gets "wormy lips" and Sansa thinks disparaging thoughts about his intellect. Even Dany doesn't trust Daario, despite being completely infatuated and extremely attracted to him.

Sansa doesn't feel anything like the shallow crush she has on Loras/Joffrey for Sandor.

Now, contrasting with "real love" as much as we have seen of it, we have Ned/Cat and Cat's initial disappointment at the average looking, cold, grey eyed stranger, but how they came to love eachother anyway. We also have Dany/Drogo that seems to have worked out despite even Viserys thinking it was an odd couple and he was mad (I tend to think Dany/Drogo is really bonkers, but it's in the text so... ). There's also the slowly growing thing between Jaime and Brienne, which follows this pattern.

What they have in common is how they had to get over their initial prejudice, or initial focus on surface and look to what was beneath. Sansa/Sandor slots nicely into this larger pattern of what is shallow crushes and what can grow into real love, i.e. something build on respect, trust and mutual appreciation.

[Mladen]

If things were that clearly defined in ASOIAF, we would not have spent up to 12 years discussing them. ;) There are still battles raging about Dany's prophecies in the HoTU and I think I read my first discussion about that in 1999. GRRM loves to leave things unsaid, or unthought and ambiguous.

On Crushes vs "real love":

Regarding the hormones and crushes and how crushes are described in ASOIAF, there are a couple of textual clues that seem to hint at whether something is a crush or infatuation or something more real and substantial.

Sansa has this first for Joffrey, but above all for Loras where she fawns over him and his beauty and she can't walk or talk straight when he's touching her arm.

Dany has similar feelings for Daario in that she frets, dresses in her prettiest clothes, she fawns over him and feels stupid and like she can't think straight with him around. Cersei remembers similar fawning feelings for Rhaegar, how she saw him and he was so beautiful and sad, and she wanted to take away the hurt.

The common factors here seem to be the fawning, the rather unrealistic expectations and the "can't think/walk straight". All these three are crushes based on surface, attraction based on looks and not on knowing the person underneath. Sansa is again a great example in how she changes her view on Joffrey's looks once she gets to know him: when she finds him lovely he is also pretty "her golden prince", but once he proves what an arse he is, he gets "wormy lips" and Sansa thinks disparaging thoughts about his intellect. Even Dany doesn't trust Daario, despite being completely infatuated and extremely attracted to him.

Sansa doesn't feel anything like the shallow crush she has on Loras/Joffrey for Sandor.

Now, contrasting with "real love" as much as we have seen of it, we have Ned/Cat and Cat's initial disappointment at the average looking, cold, grey eyed stranger, but how they came to love eachother anyway. We also have Dany/Drogo that seems to have worked out despite even Viserys thinking it was an odd couple and he was mad (I tend to think Dany/Drogo is really bonkers, but it's in the text so... ). There's also the slowly growing thing between Jaime and Brienne, which follows this pattern.

What they have in common is how they had to get over their initial prejudice, or initial focus on surface and look to what was beneath. Sansa/Sandor slots nicely into this larger pattern of what is shallow crushes and what can grow into real love, i.e. something build on respect, trust and mutual appreciation.

OK, I completely agree with Lyanna about true love vs crushes...Sansa initially was into two guys: a monster and a gay...So sad...I mean, we all have right to those silly crushes where we are allowed to make sillyness. Unfortunately for Sansa, her crushes didn`t end up with awkardness or stupid declaration of love, like it`s supposed to end. That is one of the main reasons why she is so crippled when adult male-female relationships are in question. When we talk about Sandor, Drogo, ned and all those rough exterior guys, I really think it`s just like peeling an onion. You have to take one layer at the time...One of my favourite sentences in TV show was in Blackwater episode: "You won`t hurt me".It was epic, and more important, it showed us that Sansa actually see through Sandor`s scarred face and rudness. She have seen man who loves her...

But, San/San story is well-known to GRRM. He was writer for Beauty and the Beast, I mean...it`s the same story...I would like to see Sansa happy, and I truly believe that only man who can give her all of that is Sandor...

P.S. And Lyanna, 13 years...wow...I don`t want to remember 1999, but I am glad if anyone had fun that year...

[Lyanna Stark]

OK, I completely agree with Lyanna about true love vs crushes...Sansa initially was into two guys: a monster and a gay...So sad...I mean, we all have right to those silly crushes where we are allowed to make sillyness. Unfortunately for Sansa, her crushes didn`t end up with awkardness or stupid declaration of love, like it`s supposed to end. That is one of the main reasons why she is so crippled when adult male-female relationships are in question. When we talk about Sandor, Drogo, ned and all those rough exterior guys, I really think it`s just like peeling an onion. You have to take one layer at the time...

Well, at least it makes for great conflict and character development, which are interesting things to read about. :) I was involved in a discussion in the Literature subforum about 50 shades of grey and romance/erotica in general and the poor quality of it you can expect. A lot of that is because of poor character development and just poor writing in general. Unfortunately, because of the huge amount of mediocre to horrible romance stories out there, people tend to automatically assume romance in a plot needs to be shallow or facepalm inducing, but I think this is not necessarily the case. I think the build ups for Sandor/Sansa and Brienne/Jaime are master pieces, and we have the more subdued but still compelling Ned/Cat and Davos/Marya, which is only hinted at as a backstory, but still really well done. And of course the framing device for the whole series: Rhaegar and my namesake Lyanna, without them there would have been no Robert's rebellion and the story would not have taken place.

P.S. And Lyanna, 13 years...wow...I don`t want to remember 1999, but I am glad if anyone had fun that year...

1999 was a great year. Better weather, more alcohol, better music, more handsome men, etc etc. :D

[Mladen]

Well, at least it makes for great conflict and character development, which are interesting things to read about. :) I was involved in a discussion in the Literature subforum about 50 shades of grey and romance/erotica in general and the poor quality of it you can expect. A lot of that is because of poor character development and just poor writing in general. Unfortunately, because of the huge amount of mediocre to horrible romance stories out there, people tend to automatically assume romance in a plot needs to be shallow or facepalm inducing, but I think this is not necessarily the case. I think the build ups for Sandor/Sansa and Brienne/Jaime are master pieces, and we have the more subdued but still compelling Ned/Cat and Davos/Marya, which is only hinted at as a backstory, but still really well done. And of course the framing device for the whole series: Rhaegar and my namesake Lyanna, without them there would have been no Robert's rebellion and the story would not have taken place.

I`ll quote Cate Blanchett "Love always has tendency to fall into cliché" (she was talking about filming Benjamin Button). And I agree 100% with her. Half of Hollywood movies, more than half of the modern literature have been compromised by shallow love stories...The problems are all same, solution is inevitable...I mean, I am guy, not much into fluffy, puffy, cutsie things, but when I read about love, I want to be amazed with both simplicity and depthness...and a great author knows how to do that. I also agree on Jaime/Brienne, it`s still growing, and I really enjoyed Jaime`s evolution through the books. From "the things I do for love" to a man who tears into pieces Cersei`s letter...it was long road, and I really enjoyed every piece of it...There is nothing clicheic about GRRM, so it`s normal to expect his romances are not clicheic too, and I have to say I am not disappointed. Maybe ASOAIF will be the only series that makes me want to read who hooked up :blushing: .

About 1999, I know it was great year everywhere but in my country...

[brashcandy]

Well, at least it makes for great conflict and character development, which are interesting things to read about. :) I was involved in a discussion in the Literature subforum about 50 shades of grey and romance/erotica in general and the poor quality of it you can expect. A lot of that is because of poor character development and just poor writing in general. Unfortunately, because of the huge amount of mediocre to horrible romance stories out there, people tend to automatically assume romance in a plot needs to be shallow or facepalm inducing, but I think this is not necessarily the case. I think the build ups for Sandor/Sansa and Brienne/Jaime are master pieces, and we have the more subdued but still compelling Ned/Cat and Davos/Marya, which is only hinted at as a backstory, but still really well done. And of course the framing device for the whole series: Rhaegar and my namesake Lyanna, without them there would have been no Robert's rebellion and the story would not have taken place.

Definitely. It's the subtlety that really makes them fascinating. Having Sansa and Sandor speak plainly about their feelings just wouldn't be realistic for either character at this point. There's so more in what is unsaid, nearly said, and badly said.

1999 was a great year. Better weather, more alcohol, better music, more handsome men, etc etc. :D

Can I second the love for this year :) I was a teenager in the bloom of first love. I'll never forget it. And guys, I finally reached 5k posts. My work here is done :P

[Mladen]

And guys, I finally reached 5k posts. My work here is done :P

Don`t you even dare... :bowdown:

[1234567]

Well Done BrashCandy!!! 5k is brilliant!

As for 1999, I has gone to Uni and was spending a horrible amount of time in the pub, watching Sunset Beach and not going to as many Lectures as I should have been!

Also this thread is moving at a lightening pace. I've just caught up.

Jaime's character started with the "things I do for love", but it also might end with that phrase too as he sacrificed a child for Cersei, but may sacrifice himself for Brienne or Sansa.