From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[brashcandy]

I like the analysis but I think sometimes people go too far...There are things on the forum that are completely crazy, and not even stated anywhere...Good point, Monica...

Crazy crackpot theories and trying to pick apart every turn of phrase can be annoying, however, my real grouse, particularly with Sansa's arc is the tendency of readers not to do justice to her storyline by a close reading. So many people still think that she wants to find a handsome prince, and believe that she'll be fulfilled by this outcome. Not to mention a glaring lack of appreciation for the central themes in her storyline to do with autonomy and erotic agency.

Edit: or just read what Kittykat said :)

[Tagganaro]

Great post on Lady, Pod. I'd also like to throw out there for discussion- The blind dog that takes a liking to Sansa. You think that Sansa could possibly be warging him without knowing it. It would make some kind of sense.

As for Lady, we also have Ned's thoughts about how she is a lot like Sansa (she's by far the most polite and I guess graceful of the Direwolves) so that adds to the Sansa=Lady=Direwolf equation that Pod so brilliantly expounded on.

I love the imagery of Sansa the Lady with the Direwolf underneath it. Don't mess with her lol. LF is about to find that out.

[Eric v. Melnibonee]

First of all, thank you so much for your warm welcome :laugh: ! And there are again a lot of great posts to follow!

In my opinion the Lady replacement with Sandor would fit quite well regarding his ability to strengthen and to protect her. However, I have to admit (please do not yell and hack on me due to the ages, brutal behavior etc – I know this…) that I had the impression there could be more between these 2 in the forthcoming future - more than business between a noble Lady and her captain of the guard (besides, did someone read SHADOWMARCH/T. Williams? There are some interesting parallels…). I always remember Ned stating he would find someone strong, brave and gentle for her. And all the hints with the cloaks, her first moonblood, her dreaming of him (without naming him however) etc. I am not capable to imagine HtH would be Sansa’s match. Right, she is betrothed to him (but still married which is quite well for her in this situation), but Harry seems to be a kind of Robert Baratheon (or perhaps did Randa lie to Sansa because she wants to have sweet Harry for herself…?). Oh yeep, there are so many possibilities and we have to wait and guess… Well, however I bet that Sansa’s story arc will be woven with Sandor’s. And the QI will be of interest for sure. Stay tuned!

[brashcandy]

Great post on Lady, Pod. I'd also like to throw out there for discussion- The blind dog that takes a liking to Sansa. You think that Sansa could possibly be warging him without knowing it. It would make some kind of sense.

My opinion is that she didn't warg the dog, but the close connection she establishes with it probably reflects that latent warg ability she has, along with serving to symbolize Sansa's ability to bond with the outcasts and broken elements of society. The dog, despite being blind and old, tries to protect her from Marillion. Once again, we see that Sansa's compassion and empathy wins her friends and protectors while others have to be manipulative and depend on bribes and deceit.

[Kittykatknits]

Great post on Lady, Pod. I'd also like to throw out there for discussion- The blind dog that takes a liking to Sansa. You think that Sansa could possibly be warging him without knowing it. It would make some kind of sense.

I have wondered about the blind dog and Sansa's relationship with him. If she did warg him, I am not certain Sansa would realize it, just as the other Stark children did not realize what was happening early on. I like the idea that Sansa's warg skills have developed in other ways, such as Rapsie's theory that Sansa is a natural empath. I think Sansa used her skills of empathy and compassion with this dog and he quickly responded to it. It's an old, blind hound dog. At this point, he probably is of little use to anyone but Sansa looked past that and built a connection with him. The result of course, is that he attempted to protect her and quickly grew attached. Hmmm, that sounds an awful lot like Sandor and Dontos, doesn't it?

I love the imagery of Sansa the Lady with the Direwolf underneath it. Don't mess with her lol. LF is about to find that out.

Yes! To play with that imagery, I love the idea that Sansa will beat LF by being the Lady and Direwolf, rather than becoming the Mockingbird that is LF. Sansa is going to take him down use her weapons. LF, so focused on making her his tool, won't see it coming. I know I am not the only one waiting to see this happen!

ETA: Looks like brashcandy and I were writing similar posts at the same time! :)

[Lyanna Stark]

First of all, thank you so much for your warm welcome :laugh: ! And there are again a lot of great posts to follow!

In my opinion the Lady replacement with Sandor would fit quite well regarding his ability to strengthen and to protect her. However, I have to admit (please do not yell and hack on me due to the ages, brutal behavior etc – I know this…) that I had the impression there could be more between these 2 in the forthcoming future - more than business between a noble Lady and her captain of the guard (besides, did someone read SHADOWMARCH/T. Williams? There are some interesting parallels…). I always remember Ned stating he would find someone strong, brave and gentle for her. And all the hints with the cloaks, her first moonblood, her dreaming of him (without naming him however) etc. I am not capable to imagine HtH would be Sansa’s match. Right, she is betrothed to him (but still married which is quite well for her in this situation), but Harry seems to be a kind of Robert Baratheon (or perhaps did Randa lie to Sansa because she wants to have sweet Harry for herself…?). Oh yeep, there are so many possibilities and we have to wait and guess… Well, however I bet that Sansa’s story arc will be woven with Sandor’s. And the QI will be of interest for sure. Stay tuned!

No hacking needed, I think you have reached the same conclusion as a lot of us other fellow Sansa fans. :) It seems that she's breaking away from what was expected of her in that despite everything, she seems to really have feelings for Sandor, in spite of him not being anywhere near her ideal man. Or at least not the type she thought of as her ideal man. It seems many readers still think he's so far from her ideal it can never be reconciled, but her story sort of speaks for itself here too.

I also completely agree with you that HtH seems to have the makings of Robert Baratheon 2.0, especially since I think Robert had only fathered one bastard at age 19, but HtH is something like 16 and has one already and another one the way on two different girls. So I don't think this speaks in his favour, quite the opposite.

Haven't actually read Shadowmarch, but since I have already plowed half of my summer reading already (and I haven't even had my holiday) I might check it out to see what's what. :)

[Kittykatknits]

First of all, thank you so much for your warm welcome :laugh: ! And there are again a lot of great posts to follow!

In my opinion the Lady replacement with Sandor would fit quite well regarding his ability to strengthen and to protect her. However, I have to admit (please do not yell and hack on me due to the ages, brutal behavior etc – I know this…) that I had the impression there could be more between these 2 in the forthcoming future - more than business between a noble Lady and her captain of the guard (besides, did someone read SHADOWMARCH/T. Williams? There are some interesting parallels…). I always remember Ned stating he would find someone strong, brave and gentle for her. And all the hints with the cloaks, her first moonblood, her dreaming of him (without naming him however) etc. I am not capable to imagine HtH would be Sansa’s match. Right, she is betrothed to him (but still married which is quite well for her in this situation), but Harry seems to be a kind of Robert Baratheon (or perhaps did Randa lie to Sansa because she wants to have sweet Harry for herself…?). Oh yeep, there are so many possibilities and we have to wait and guess… Well, however I bet that Sansa’s story arc will be woven with Sandor’s. And the QI will be of interest for sure. Stay tuned!

Hi Eric,

Lot's of good thoughts. My theory is that Sandor is her Lady replacement. I've joked before that Sansa may have lost her wolf but that she'd be fine as she found a dog. :) But, you are not seeing something that isn't there. Lots of us have noticed it too. In fact, in a recent interview Martin confirmed that there is something there, as he "played with it a little". I don't know how this will play out in the story but it is fun to speculate. But, I am absolutely convinced that the story between Sandor and Sansa is not done yet.

I agree about Harry. Sansa is currently married so her relationship with him will be limited to an engagement right now. I also think that LF has other plans rather than just marrying her off to Harry. He wants something more from her and I do not see Harry agreeing to the idea to march the Vale army, with large stores off food, up in to the North in the middle of winter. It sounds like a bill of goods to me. We have not yet met him but the little we do know is not positive. LF certainly made a point of describing him in a rather negative manner. Randa also talked about him too and I tend to think she was telling us the truth. She did not know about Sansa's engagement to Harry at the time and seems to have set her sights on LF, so she would not have a motive in deceiving Sansa at this point. But, he has two bastards with two different women by 16. He's a lady's man who likes fighting and wenching. Sounds an awful lot like Robert, doesn't it? :) I believe this is to further parallel Cersei and Sansa. But, it is my guess that while Cersei ended up marrying Robert that Sansa will not have to marry Harry.

[Lyanna Stark]

Crazy crackpot theories and trying to pick apart every turn of phrase can be annoying, however, my real grouse, particularly with Sansa's arc is the tendency of readers not to do justice to her storyline by a close reading. So many people still think that she wants to find a handsome prince, and believe that she'll be fulfilled by this outcome. Not to mention a glaring lack of appreciation for the central themes in her storyline to do with autonomy and erotic agency.

But crackpot theories about the tapestries are awesome!!!

Seriously, if they don't have anything of huge import within them, I am going to be so massively disappointed.

[Kittykatknits]

But crackpot theories about the tapestries are awesome!!!

Seriously, if they don't have anything of huge import within them, I am going to be so massively disappointed.

Weren't you supposed to start a thread on this? :)

ETA: I don't think they are crackpot. It came up in a Sansa and Cersei chapter. Martin is dropping one of his little hints.

[brashcandy]

But crackpot theories about the tapestries are awesome!!!

Seriously, if they don't have anything of huge import within them, I am going to be so massively disappointed.

:) yeah, I have my fingers crossed for the tapestries too. I'm honestly thinking dragon banners.

[Lyanna Stark]

But, I am absolutely convinced that the story between Sandor and Sansa is not done yet.

There's also the fact that Sansa has been involved in no less than 5 marriage alliances she has had no say in, but Sandor she has started having feelings for completely on her own, with no pressure from anyone involved. Which is a fact it seems a lot of people dismiss when they think he is not suitable. Whatever Sansa chooses will be "suitable" enough for her will be enough. Especially if it's free from other people's meddling influences and involve no interest in her claim to Winterfell. Sandor has no interest in her claim to Winterfell. He seemed rather taken with Sansa the girl, not Sansa the claim to Winterfell.

:) yeah, I have my fingers crossed for the tapestries too. I'm honestly thinking dragon banners.

Weren't you supposed to start a thread on this? :)

ETA: I don't think they are crackpot. It came up in a Sansa and Cersei chapter. Martin is dropping one of his little hints.

Ack, well I'll have to consider it a bit more. I really should not be encouraged to think about tapestries, it is a dangerous business!

EDIT: the tapestry excitement made my grammar worse than it normally is

[Monica21]

I really think Martin wants us to do just that as readers. I've read interviews with him many times over the years and he has often stated that he's written these books in such as way that he feels they require re-reads and analysis. I know that each time I re-read one of the books or a particular chapter that I learn something new. The more I analyze the text, for any character, the more I discover that relying on the text by itself means that I am only absorbing half the story. There are incidents, apart from Sansa's sexuality, that require us to to look at body language, question what the POV character is saying, and to look for meaning in ambiguity. That's been Martin's style since the first book and I don't anticipate any changes to this either. Personally, I love this as it makes me work a bit as a reader, I have to force myself to analyze and question what I am seeing. The power of this story is not just the words on the page it is what is unsaid too.

I have to partially agree with you. Especially when GRRM acts like he's surprised that fans like Sandor or that SanSan is a thing. I think that's disingenuous at best. I don't disagree with a lot of the analysis, but from my reading of this thread and the previous one it seems that Sansa's sexuality tends to take over the discussion. Like I said, I don't disagree that those themes are there. She's replacing Tyrion with Sandor for a reason and the unkiss is there for a reason. But I don't want to speculate on why simply because I have no idea where GRRM is going with it. There is still his repeated comment of "unreliable narrator" which tends to make me wonder when I read the Sansa\Alayne chapters. And I'm incredibly hesitant to put too much meaning behind it if only because reading this series has taught me that I have no idea where GRRM is taking these characters.

I think you will find many people that agree with you on this, I am certainly one of them. Have you had a chance to read through the re-read or previous re-thinking threads at all? We've spent many, many pages discussing Sansa's relationship with her sister, LF and his influence on her, trauma from her past, her future role in WF, her quest for agency, and, one of my favorites, Sansa as a vehicle (is there a better word here anyone?) for Martin to provide insight in to women in Westeros. In fact, every topic you bring up has been a big topic here at one point or another.Five re-read threads and seven re-thinking threads and I feel like we aren't done yet either.

I literally just finished ADWD two days ago, so I haven't gone through any of the re-read or rethinking threads other than this one and the previous one. It's probably that everything I've thought about and questioned is in those threads. I've meant to go through them but just haven't had the time.

[Lyanna Stark]

I have to partially agree with you. Especially when GRRM acts like he's surprised that fans like Sandor or that SanSan is a thing.

Oh he loves to troll us and gets so happy and giggly when people debate one thing or another. :)

I literally just finished ADWD two days ago, so I haven't gone through any of the re-read or rethinking threads other than this one and the previous one. It's probably that everything I've thought about and questioned is in those threads. I've meant to go through them but just haven't had the time.

Congratulations on finishing it!

[Tagganaro]

But crackpot theories about the tapestries are awesome!!!

Seriously, if they don't have anything of huge import within them, I am going to be so massively disappointed.

Weren't you supposed to start a thread on this? :)

ETA: I don't think they are crackpot. It came up in a Sansa and Cersei chapter. Martin is dropping one of his little hints.

Yes- In no way are the tapestries theories crackpot lol. They MUST be very important for something. I can't wait for that thread!

My opinion is that she didn't warg the dog, but the close connection she establishes with it probably reflects that latent warg ability she has, along with serving to symbolize Sansa's ability to bond with the outcasts and broken elements of society. The dog, despite being blind and old, tries to protect her from Marillion. Once again, we see that Sansa's compassion and empathy wins her friends and protectors while others have to be manipulative and depend on bribes and deceit.

I certainly like the symbolism a lot as well. You could take it a little further and make comparisons to Sandor as well. The younger, crueler, vicious Hound as one protector, and then the blind, docile, simple Dog as another. Both sort of fulfill similar roles as well- Sandor is not able to fully protect Sansa from the brunt of Joffrey's violence, and the Dog is not able to protect her at all from Marillion (although our favorite Sandor stand-in Lothor Brune is ).

Speaking of Sansa and warging and symbolism and imagery, there's a lot Sansa allusions to animals. You have the Hound and the Blind Dog, Little Bird and Sweetrobin (and his preference for Winged Knight stories or whatever those were), and also LF's sigil of mockingbird. I'd just like to see Sansa's warging ability develop further to tie her more to the other Stark children. It certainly seems a possibility that that is what was happening with the blind dog.

I have wondered about the blind dog and Sansa's relationship with him. If she did warg him, I am not certain Sansa would realize it, just as the other Stark children did not realize what was happening early on. I like the idea that Sansa's warg skills have developed in other ways, such as Rapsie's theory that Sansa is a natural empath. I think Sansa used her skills of empathy and compassion with this dog and he quickly responded to it. It's an old, blind hound dog. At this point, he probably is of little use to anyone but Sansa looked past that and built a connection with him. The result of course, is that he attempted to protect her and quickly grew attached. Hmmm, that sounds an awful lot like Sandor and Dontos, doesn't it?

Yes! To play with that imagery, I love the idea that Sansa will beat LF by being the Lady and Direwolf, rather than becoming the Mockingbird that is LF. Sansa is going to take him down use her weapons. LF, so focused on making her his tool, won't see it coming. I know I am not the only one waiting to see this happen!

ETA: Looks like brashcandy and I were writing similar posts at the same time! :)

Yeah I love all this. Lothor Brune is probably the next possibility for her compassion to play out (and he is, as has been noted before on here kind of a Sandor stand in. Even their names sound familiar lol).

Maybe LF only sees the Fish so to speak (of Catelyn Tully) and not the Wolf of Eddard Stark?

[brashcandy]

I don't disagree with a lot of the analysis, but from my reading of this thread and the previous one it seems that Sansa's sexuality tends to take over the discussion.

Here's the thing though: the reason why a lot of focus has been on Sansa's sexuality is because it's a major theme in her story arc, not only for Sansa herself, but in other women's narratives. Having the power to choose your partner is not a liberty that is afforded noble women in Westeros, and what we've seen time and again are the disastrous consequences relating to this lack of agency when it comes to personal desire. As will happen in any thread series of this length, certain topics and issues will recur, especially the overarching ones to do with how Sansa can chart an independent path for herself away from the influence of men like Littlefinger and achieve personal happiness.

It also needs to be said that sexual autonomy for Sansa is important in itself, not for how it will impact her relationship with Sandor. She might never meet him again, but not being tethered to an unhappy, exploitative marriage remains a necessary outcome for Sansa's arc.

We discuss every and anything related to Sansa's character in the series. If someone is interested in a particular topic, all they have to do is introduce it in a serious considered manner, and it will undoubtedly garner response from the regular thread posters.

[Mladen]

Guys, since we ended the discussion of how women inflenced Sansa and her behaviour, can we continue...here are some of my ideas:

1. Let`s talk about family words, both Tully and Stark, and really get into discussion is she closer to her mother`s or her father`s family.

2. I always wanted to disscus the line from Blackwater episode " You won`t hurt me"

3. Sansa as Queen of the North...

[brashcandy]

Guys, since we ended the discussion of how women inflenced Sansa and her behaviour, can we continue...here are some of my ideas:

1. Let`s talk about family words, both Tully and Stark, and really get into discussion is she closer to her mother`s or her father`s family.

2. I always wanted to disscus the line from Blackwater episode " You won`t hurt me"

3. Sansa as Queen of the North...

No 2 would be off limits Mladen, since this is the book forum and that relates to the tv show. And we haven't finished discussion quite yet on the female influences; we're still waiting on two more presentations on Lollys and Shae.

The Tully/Stark contrast IMO comes down to Sansa looking like a Tully, but being very Stark. She's a girl of the North, and that's the life she's always known. There might have been a few southern influences, but we see that she draws her essential strength from her Stark identity and Winterfell.

Concerning Sansa as Queen in the North, did you have any specific ideas on how we could see this playing out?

[Lady Lea]

1. Let`s talk about family words, both Tully and Stark, and really get into discussion is she closer to her mother`s or her father`s family.

With all the respect in the world, I really don't mean to be rude, but please I really can't handle another discussion on how Sansa should heed the Tully words. I know people on this thread won't do it but everytime someone brings it up in this forum is "she has a duty to marry X, so she'll save Winterfell and her family". And it's usually Tyrion (who, let us remember, is convicted of kingslaying and kinslaying, is not the heir to Casterly Rock, is a Lannister so probably will be hated by default by Dany, and has literally no allies or friends in Westeros - unless you count Jorah the convicted slaver who managed to get banned from Dany's court as well).

I know she looks like a Tully but she's a Stark, as much as any of the other kids. We can't even measure "starkness" or "tullyness" because every member of both houses has been so different from each other.

But what did you have in mind for the Queen of the North discussion?

[Kittykatknits]

Guys, since we ended the discussion of how women inflenced Sansa and her behaviour, can we continue...here are some of my ideas:

1. Let`s talk about family words, both Tully and Stark, and really get into discussion is she closer to her mother`s or her father`s family.

2. I always wanted to disscus the line from Blackwater episode " You won`t hurt me"

3. Sansa as Queen of the North...

Would anyone be open for talking about the Stark words for Sansa?

I'd like to talk about that Blackwater episode too and this line but I agree, we can't do it in this thread. The mods would come down on us. If there is enough interest from others though, I'd be glad to open a thread i the GOT forums for us to talk about it there.

I have a couple topics too:

- I'd like to talk in more detail on how Sansa will be LF's downfall. I know it's been brought up in the past but we've got a few new people so I'm curious if anything new will come up.

- I'm also very hesitant to bring this up but I will gently put it out there. I've been wondering for awhile now how the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion will play out in the story. My big concern is that this thread will turn in to another Mrs. Sansa Lannister thread and I'm really done with that topic. I'm more interested in exploring what the series is likely to do with this plot line. I can see everyone not being up for this one either so I'll respect the decision the group makes on this. :)

- Sansa's relationship with Ser Sweetrobin.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I have a couple topics too:

- I'd like to talk in more detail on how Sansa will be LF's downfall. I know it's been brought up in the past but we've got a few new people so I'm curious if anything new will come up.

I wouldn't mind writing something on this in relation to the knowledge that Sansa now has about Littlefinger's role in poisoning Jon Arryn and kicking off the Westeros shitstorm.

LF has always been a master at covering his own behind, but this has left him bare-assed to the wind and Winter Is Coming up behind him. The question is whether he has grasped the full implications of this, and also when and how Sansa will use this knowledge to bring him down (and I am betting she will; she didn't hear that conversation just so we the readers would know what went on).