Lady Lea Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Stop screwing up the characterization.You've supposedly read the books and you have GRRM himself as a creative consultant, so there's no excuse for this shit. Jon, Robb, Brienne, Cersei, Jaime, "Talisa"... you're butchering these characters to the point where ASOIAF fans can't even recognize this adaptation. Stick to the script and that way no one gets hurt.Don't you know that if you say anything bad about GOT you are BETRAYING THE FANDOM??? stop being so extremely vocal! you are hurting the fanboys feelings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Pono Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Cersei's basically been bowdlerized. She loved Robert once, was heartbroken that she lost his child, they made Joffrey the bastard-killer, she gets philosophical about their "sins" bawwww etc. That's not Cersei. The problem is they want to make her more sympathetic whilst keeping the super-bitchiness, and it patently doesn't work. Her character's a mess.Brienne? Yup. Or her new name - the T800. Bitch slaughters soldiers at the drop of the hat and betrays the idealism and naivety that was the linchpin of her character in the books. I don't see how the dynamic between her and Jaime is even going to work now.Have you even *read* the books? Cersei was *excited* by the tall, handsome Robert and loved him with a girlish naievete until she realized on her wedding night that he would only ever love Lyanna. And it was completely ambigous in the show that Cersei was "heartbroken" about losing the child. Many book-readers and non-book readers alike watched the scene with her and Cat in Season 1 and assumed she was lying, to manipulate Cat in her moment of grief. That was certainly my take.And I loved the scene between her and Robert; D&D were trying to imagine what an actual conversation between this desperately unhappy married couple might sound like (when they're not screaming at each other), and GRRM happens to think they nailed it.And book Cersei loves to inflict harsh punshiments on those who would spoil her plans, but she is not without a conscience. Some of my favorite passages in Book 4 are about Cersei starting to lose her grip and is starting to feel guilty for all of her sins--for giving Falyse to Qyburn to experiment upon, for going to see the Maegi in the tent, leading to her friend's death. There's nothing wrong with the producers of this show wanting to show these aspect's of Cersei's self reflection earlier on, since we spend so much time with her.Amazingly, some book fans appear to want a demonic, screeching harpy-shrew with smoke coming out of her ears, but that's not (entierly) who Cersei is in the books, and she is even less so in the show--and that's a good thing. If she was, she would be a cartoonish caricature.As for Brienne, all the vulnerability and naieve is there, and it's subtly and beatifully played by Gwendoline Christie. I've pointed this out before, but look at Gwendoline's face when the Northmen soldiers are laughing at her, how she looks huge, awkward, ashamed, staring at her boots. And her initial scenes and interaction between her and Renly give ample evidence of her idealism. Yes she kills Renly's guards in the tent, but this is no different from what Loras does in the books, and she and Loras have these similarities--crazed devotion and obsessive love of their king, so it's not so hard to believe that she would attack them, esepcially in self-defense.Some have objected to the scene where she violently, cruelly castrates the man who hanged the bar wenches while taunting him, but this is straight out of the books too. Anyone remember Shagwell's death? How Brienne slowly twists the blade inside him and screams, "Laugh!" This *is* the Brienne we know from the books. She loses her idealism and becomes hardened. She does not have as much "screen time" in the show as she does in the books, so they felt obliged to make that violent streak appear sooner, but it was there in the books. It would be nice if they had time to develop her character and tell us about who the Tarth master at arms used to make her kill pigs to toughen her up and she would cry and cry because she has a soft heart, but they didn't have time for that in Season 2.She'll be awesome with Jaime in Season 3. She and Nikolai have wonderful chemistry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daske Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Quit being such a fanboy. Yes, a fanboy, because it's only that I'm being critical of the show that you're getting your panties in a bunch. If you can't handle an opposite opinion then perhaps forums aren't the best place for you. Good grief. I was not questioning your right to a different opinion to mine, I said don't lump all fans in with your opinion. Geez. Do you even read other people's posts? Here is is again to give you another chance "Please don't lump all fans in with your extreme view". I can post it once more if you missed it again. What part of that statement can you possibly disagree with? Unless you hold some kind of view that you are not a true fan of ASoIaF unless you don't like the show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Pono Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Don't you know that if you say anything bad about GOT you are BETRAYING THE FANDOM??? stop being so extremely vocal! you are hurting the fanboys feelings!That's really not it. It's the gross presumption that this person is somehow speaking for "ASOIAF fans" who "don't recognize" the bastardizations of characters the villainous D&D have wrought.I recognize most of the characters just fine; some of them are actually marked improvements on characterizations in the books. Others, not so much, but I am excited by the adaptation over all and don't appreciate the suggestion that I am an unthinking, uncritical "fanboy" because I love ASOIAF and GOT almost equally, nor the ridiculous assertion that real "ASOIAF fans" all hate what HBO has done to their favorite characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Well I for one am not afraid to state that D&D are ruining ASOIAF for TV and are missing a tremendous opportunity. They have the oppportunity to create an incredible genre busting show but instead are falling back on cliche and trope. The beauty of ASOIAF is the intricate story with an incredible array of deep characters. Losing that aspect threatens the success of the story. And from what D&D have stated, they simply dont understand many of the critical characters. Now they may be saying these things as part of the show's production, but if these misperceptions are truly theirs, well they simply dont get it.Robb is explicitely stated in the books to be mature, to be wise beyond his age. NOT a petulant teenager.Jon is NOT looking for a father figure, he had father figures out the wazzoo and it is explicitely stated that bastards grow up fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King in the North Carolina Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I am fine with nonstop peen for the ladies just so long as Missandei gets nekkid early and often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Less whore action, more plot.Dany's actress actually like, acting.Jon stops gaping with his mouth open all the time.Pretty much this. And Jon needs to reunite with both Ghost AND Gorm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Pono Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Well I for one am not afraid to state that D&D are ruining ASOIAF for TV and are missing a tremendous opportunity. They have the oppportunity to create an incredible genre busting show but instead are falling back on cliche and trope. Does anyone--other than some hardcore book fans, who have understandable qualms, given their investment in their favorite characters/scenes--think GoT is not a great, genre-busting TV show? Almost every professional or non-professional opinion I've encountered about Game of Thrones is that it shatters expectations of what "fantasy" is set up by everything from LoTR to Star Wars. That's not to say that book purists shouldn't be allowed to opine, but those are very rare voices indeed who say it's not an excellent TV program (whether or not it is an excellent adaptation).I am fine with nonstop peen for the ladies just so long as Missandei gets nekkid early and often.Ewww!!!!! But she's nine years old! Oh, wait, never mind, she's a super-hot 25 year-old on the TV show. Now that is something that toubles me as a book fan. I was looking forward to seeing Dany interact with an innocent, adorable child. Now she's gonna have lesbo scenes with a beautiful British soap opera star. I'll have to grind my teeth and suffer through them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daske Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 The changes to the characters seem minor to me. And I found Robb a pretty straightforward character anyway.Personally, I hope what they do better next season is to make more of the direwolves. In the books they were much closer, both physcally and telepathically (for want of a better word). The few scenes that really showed this trait like Robb and Greywind getting wound up with Jaime in the cell or Bran waking up from Summer's pov with him on his bed I thought were done very well. Hopefully budget allows more of this kind of thing.And can we have a Nymeria cameo next season pretty pretty please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Porno Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 The changes to the characters seem minor to me. And I found Robb a pretty straightforward character anyway.Personally, I hope what they do better next season is to make more of the direwolves. In the books they were much closer, both physcally and telepathically (for want of a better word). The few scenes that really showed this trait like Robb and Greywind getting wound up with Jaime in the cell or Bran waking up from Summer's pov with him on his bed I thought were done very well. Hopefully budget allows more of this kind of thing.And can we have a Nymeria cameo next season pretty pretty please!Direwolves are EXPENSIVE. They needed that money for Blackwater.I think the fact that next season we'll see the Reeds and Orell, they will focus more on the warging and make that a bigger theme of the season, which is why they probably only hinted at it in season two. I'm willing to bet the scenes that were "cut" of Jon and Ghost, and his brief contact with Bran were just moved to season three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolene Brown Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Instead of leaping to create the same debate every single time anyone posts about their own personal disappointment with the show, why not just let people vent and get it out of their system? It is, after all, a thread about improving the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Pono Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Instead of leaping to create the same debate every single time anyone posts about their own personal disappointment with the show, why not just let people vent and get it out of their system? It is, after all, a thread about improving the show."Let" them vent? Who's preventing them from venting? I just don't think unreasonable to respond to those whose venting consists of leveling direct insults at those who enjoy GoT as a piece of television and as an adapation.Direwolves are EXPENSIVE. They needed that money for Blackwater.I think the fact that next season we'll see the Reeds and Orell, they will focus more on the warging and make that a bigger theme of the season, which is why they probably only hinted at it in season two. I'm willing to bet the scenes that were "cut" of Jon and Ghost, and his brief contact with Bran were just moved to season three.Yeah the dragon and direwolf CGI scenes were too infrequent but enjoyable when they occurred. One critcism of the "creatures" that I agree with is that dragons haven't grown at all since being born! I can undestand them being small when everyone was starving in the Red Waste but after Dany learned to feed them in Qaarth, they should have been quite a bit bigger for the season finale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolene Brown Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 "Let" them vent? Who's preventing them from venting? I just don't think unreasonable to respond to those whose venting consists of leveling direct insults at those who enjoy GoT as a piece of television and as an adapation.Because it is so repetitive! It is the same debate between the same people on 3-4 different threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Pono Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Because it is so repetitive! It is the same debate between the same people on 3-4 different threads.Well when they start showing us new episodes, we'll think of new complaints and new defenses of departures from the books, but until then I don't see how the repetition can be avoided. We need something to do occupy our time until Season 3 and book 6. I say avoid GoT-themed sites if you want to avoid repetitive GoT-themed arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lea Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Does anyone--other than some hardcore book fans, who have understandable qualms, given their investment in their favorite characters/scenes--think GoT is not a great, genre-busting TV show? Almost every professional or non-professional opinion I've encountered about Game of Thrones is that it shatters expectations of what "fantasy" is set up by everything from LoTR to Star Wars. That's not to say that book purists shouldn't be allowed to opine, but those are very rare voices indeed who say it's not an excellent TV program (whether or not it is an excellent adaptation).Even tv critics don't think it's perfect. Obviously most haven't read the books so they are not about to complain about characterisation, but from a "tv critic" pov there are still flaws in GOT like the ridiculous sexposition scenes that D&D love, and are lazy and gross ("play with her ass").Now don't get me wrong, I like the tv show and I'll keep watching, but that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that it has very real flaws, even if it did get a lot of things right as well. Just like Harry Potter: just because Snape was amazing doesn't mean I couldn't be critic about that crazy angry Dumbledore that replaced the original ("DID YA PUT YA NAME IN DA GOBLA OF FYIA???") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Does anyone--other than some hardcore book fans, who have understandable qualms, given their investment in their favorite characters/scenes--think GoT is not a great, genre-busting TV show? Almost every professional or non-professional opinion I've encountered about Game of Thrones is that it shatters expectations of what "fantasy" is set up by everything from LoTR to Star Wars. That's not to say that book purists shouldn't be allowed to opine, but those are very rare voices indeed who say it's not an excellent TV program (whether or not it is an excellent adaptation).Ewww!!!!! But she's nine years old! Oh, wait, never mind, she's a super-hot 25 year-old on the TV show. Now that is something that toubles me as a book fan. I was looking forward to seeing Dany interact with an innocent, adorable child. Now she's gonna have lesbo scenes with a beautiful British soap opera star. I'll have to grind my teeth and suffer through them.Well thank you for allowing me to opine. GoT, right now is living off the excellent season 1. Season 2 was average, at best. At times it was great (the whole Theon storyline), but much of it was pointless, aimless and cliched. It is not genre busting to turn Talisa into a modern day woman. Talking back to the king? Completely against the literature the story is based on. Creating a go nowhere storyline for Dany? Pointless. Having Arya doing nothing for 3/4 of the season? aimless. Tyrion, ygritte-jon, Robb-Talisa? Cliched. Brienne spends 2 books questioning her ability to be ruthless, that is completely at odds with her in teh show and utterly changes the dynamic with Jaime. These changes are HUGE and yes some have to do with adapting a book to the small screen, I get it. But many of these changes are not necessary and will have repercussions for the following seasons. This is far more than book purism, this is pointing out that D&D are creating their own story, seemingly without magic, without prophecy, without texture, without the deep characterization that they could create. HBO created the Sopranos with incredibly complex stories and foreshadowing and symbolism. The Wire had incredibly complicated characters and bravely redid the entire show the 2nd season, sideliningwhole characters and stories for a compelling story line. GoT is failing to do this. The producers do not seem to have the faith in the viewers that the viewers are smart enough to follow stories for many episodes and many seasons (which the books scream for). Instead we get stories we have seen a million times before, without any depth to them, stripping strong women of their assets, replacing them with modernistic views of women.Again, I fully recognize that there will be changes. I get it, adaptations require significant and insignificant changes. But there is a way to do it that does not destroy the story. Theon's story is an example of an excellent adaptation, simplifying and streamlining the story but staying true to the books and keeping hte tension and themes and story. Compare that to Robb's story. Robb went from a classic tragic figure to a petulant teenager (very reminiscent of a modern character). Robb's book story echoes his father's downfall and that was so powerful. TV Robb is well, annoying, boring and just plain stupid. Catelyn has been stripped of all the depth the book went to such effort to achieve, balancing her motherly instincts with her duty, her concern for all her children with the limits of her circumstances. TV Cat is just another example of a dumb mother blind to all whose children know so much more than her. Book Arya was already well on her way to becoming a FM by the end of the 2nd book, she had been through so much, she had worn MANY faces (which was absolutely critical to her FM story line), she trained constantly. TV Arya, well honestly, has not suffered at all. And by missing that part of her development in Harrenhall, they have completely lost that opportunity. In Book 3 Arya had reached a point where she could make choices, choosing between the Hounds and teh BWB's views on honor and justice. Her experiences before Book 3 prepared her for that part of her journey. Now when she is to compare the Hound with the BWB, she will not have the basic experiences to understand the choices she is giving. If, as has been hinted at by D&D, Arya's season 3 journey will be darker, that misses the point. She needs to be further along in her journey to a stone cold killer. Nothing in Season 2 demonstrated that. Jon is another example of this failure to properly develope a character. can anyone honestly picture the inept Jon standing up to Mance? Or Stannis or Mel or Tormund or the NW? All of which is to happen over the next 2 seasons. These are not minor issues, they are critical to the story and essential to the long term viability of the tv show. I dont believe that a cliched fantasy show will thrive long term. What brings in the non fantasy fans is, well many things, but among the biggest is the intrigue, the depths of characters, the machiavellian story lines. Generic TV watcher will have little interest in seeing a typical fantasy story over several seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Pono Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Even tv critics don't think it's perfect. Obviously most haven't read the books so they are not about to complain about characterisation, but from a "tv critic" pov there are still flaws in GOT like the ridiculous sexposition scenes that D&D love, and are lazy and gross ("play with her ass").Perfect is one thing, but almost no critic rates the series below an A-. Also, you are wrong, most critics *have* read the books (though perhaps not as obsessively as you or I); TV critics tend to be pop culture nerds and they devour books like ASOIAF. Check one of the WIC sites "recap roundups" and you will see that the percentage of critics in the "book reader" caetegory is far higher than "non-book reader."But forget about critics, although they by and large love the show. They, like book purists, are a very small group. I'm also talking about average TV viewers of all stripes who I've met in my own life, some book readers and some not--they all think the show is of excellent (I did not say perfect) quality. My book-reader friend thought Yara was all wrong and we both think the Hound seems to be on Xanax when he should be seething and angry, but we both think the show is one of the 3 or 4 best series currently on television.Also, the number of critics who complained about sexposition were quite small, though immensely amusing. I thought "play with her ass" was a great way of letting us in on Littlefinger's inner thoughts, background and bio, while demonstrating that he's an amoral creep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 https://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/showthread.php?t=2279982consistently season 2 is less than season 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Pono Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 These are not minor issues, they are critical to the story and essential to the long term viability of the tv show. I dont believe that a cliched fantasy show will thrive long term. What brings in the non fantasy fans is, well many things, but among the biggest is the intrigue, the depths of characters, the machiavellian story lines. Generic TV watcher will have little interest in seeing a typical fantasy story over several seasons.Who besides you online book purists would even claim that the show is a clichéd, typical fantasy show? I haven't even heard many online book purists claim that. Ever see the movie Willow or, like, Krull or something? Nobody thinks that; no writer or critic has ever opined that, and I've never met anyone who came away with that impression (though I do have one friend who refuses to watch no matter how much I beg her, because she doesn't like LOTR type shows, even after I try to tell her this one is different).Saying that you are going to stop watching because you find the adaptation-related changes unpalatable is one thing, but to predict that the general public is going to perceive the show is a trite medieval yarn that they've already seen a million times has no basis in reality, or in the kind of reaction the show has been getting from TV experts and non-experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Noone is arguing that the tv show stinks, it doesnt, it is still entertaining, but it simply is not what it could be and far from the oustanding show it was in season 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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